Discussion
On the ground floor of my hotel in Oslo tonight I came across a Nio car showroom being decorated. Don’t know anything about them, they are a newish Chinese brand with aspirations to be a Tesla competitor. From the window they look the part…
Apologies for rotated pics, but just in case anyone is interested!
Apologies for rotated pics, but just in case anyone is interested!
abzmike said:
They have other stuff as well…I found their website and they have about 7 models of all sizes. Quite concepty car type stuff but the smooth brown one was plugged in, so presumably goes.
Look at the zero gap between tyre and wheel arch - I don't think that car will go anywhere! #concept.Interesting stuff though!
Nio has some very large backers incl tencent
They have the backing to cover the EU in battery swap stations, in a similar fashion to Tesla's supercharger stations and their model line up of ES3 ES6 and ES8 would cover a large section of European buyers, they would pretty much have the 40% that cant home charge market to themselves.
It would be a brave move to try this especially as they cant build cars or swap stations fast enough for their home market thou, from what i have seen they make better cars than Tesla
They have the backing to cover the EU in battery swap stations, in a similar fashion to Tesla's supercharger stations and their model line up of ES3 ES6 and ES8 would cover a large section of European buyers, they would pretty much have the 40% that cant home charge market to themselves.
It would be a brave move to try this especially as they cant build cars or swap stations fast enough for their home market thou, from what i have seen they make better cars than Tesla
A neighbor at my last rental house a few years ago worked for Nio (previously worked for Tesla before that). They have a pretty large development / tech center in California.
Just checked, they sold nearly 100k cars in China last year. Pretty strong growth and seem to have some compelling products. Lots of ambitious plans though, so lets see if they can deliver on them in the coming years. Its been a long gestation period for them though their backers have deep pockets.
Just checked, they sold nearly 100k cars in China last year. Pretty strong growth and seem to have some compelling products. Lots of ambitious plans though, so lets see if they can deliver on them in the coming years. Its been a long gestation period for them though their backers have deep pockets.
One of their chaps posts on PH. The product seems quite interesting. I don't believe they are particularly cheap for a brand unheard of in the West but appear to have very robust backing and clear plans to break into Western markets. I think you'd have to have a closer look when they do go on sale and certainly not dismiss them out of hand.
The battery changing thing is interesting but I'm not sold on its relevance. The stations would have to have immense ubiquity to be viable plus you'd need to pay really close attention to the monthly cost of using a battery rental service etc.
The battery changing thing is interesting but I'm not sold on its relevance. The stations would have to have immense ubiquity to be viable plus you'd need to pay really close attention to the monthly cost of using a battery rental service etc.
One of their medium size SUVs was parked outside the showroom tonight - for a taxi/Uber with a swappable battery and low charging downtime could make a lot of sense. It’s a nice looking vehicle, a bit Peugeot/BMWish. They could sell heaps in cities round Europe with a relatively small change station footprint.
DonkeyApple said:
One of their chaps posts on PH. The product seems quite interesting. I don't believe they are particularly cheap for a brand unheard of in the West but appear to have very robust backing and clear plans to break into Western markets. I think you'd have to have a closer look when they do go on sale and certainly not dismiss them out of hand.
The battery changing thing is interesting but I'm not sold on its relevance. The stations would have to have immense ubiquity to be viable plus you'd need to pay really close attention to the monthly cost of using a battery rental service etc.
Way back at the start of EV adoption I thought the idea of battery swapping made sense. But now after a couple years of being an EV driver... Not so much. The thing is, I charge my car pretty much everyday in order to keep max range available and to take advantage of cheap overnight power. To keep max range available via swapping i'd be doing a lot of swapping! And at Christ knows what cost.The battery changing thing is interesting but I'm not sold on its relevance. The stations would have to have immense ubiquity to be viable plus you'd need to pay really close attention to the monthly cost of using a battery rental service etc.
What about those that can't charge at home..? The problem that they would need the battery swap stations to be everywhere before it makes sense over and above charging via the ever increasing number of high speed chargers. Crucially, to buy in to the batter swap idea it would also have to be substantially faster than high speed charging. It's unlikely it can ever actually be faster on average though, as most high speed charging is just done to top up the battery enough to complete the journey - so it could be just ten minutes.
Seems like a huge investment in infrastructure will be required to make battery swapping feasible and practical. On the other hand, public charge points, despite initial concerns, actually have kept up with demand and are fast enough for the vast majority. There's still a few minor issues with faulty chargers and confusion amongst payment methods, but realistically that's going to sort itself out as we move forward and without requiring the investment of an entirely new and competing infrastructure.
Good idea perhaps, but a little late to the party. The cars look stunning though and I'm sure there's more to the companies ambitions than hot swap batteries.
TheDeuce said:
What about those that can't charge at home..? The problem that they would need the battery swap stations to be everywhere before it makes sense over and above charging via the ever increasing number of high speed chargers. Crucially, to buy in to the batter swap idea it would also have to be substantially faster than high speed charging. It's unlikely it can ever actually be faster on average though, as most high speed charging is just done to top up the battery enough to complete the journey - so it could be just ten minutes.
swap time from 0% SoC to 100% is 3 mins, fast charging cant touch that, and you can cable charge the car as well of course its very successful in china, they have done 5.3 million swaps already, for a company only making a small number of cars a year atm.
https://www.nio.com/news/nio-achieves-annual-targe...
1 mill total swaps oct 2020
2.9 mill total swaps June 2021
4 mill total swaps oct 2021
5.3 mill total swaps dec 2021
thats strong growth
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 9th February 09:35
Dave Hedgehog said:
TheDeuce said:
What about those that can't charge at home..? The problem that they would need the battery swap stations to be everywhere before it makes sense over and above charging via the ever increasing number of high speed chargers. Crucially, to buy in to the batter swap idea it would also have to be substantially faster than high speed charging. It's unlikely it can ever actually be faster on average though, as most high speed charging is just done to top up the battery enough to complete the journey - so it could be just ten minutes.
swap time from 0% SoC to 100% is 3 mins, fast charging cant touch that, and you can cable charge the car as well of course its very successful in china, they have done 5.3 million swaps already, for a company only making a small number of cars a year atm.
https://www.nio.com/news/nio-achieves-annual-targe...
1 mill total swaps oct 2020
2.9 mill total swaps June 2021
4 mill total swaps oct 2021
5.3 mill total swaps dec 2021
thats strong growth
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 9th February 09:35
I guess the half million EV's in the UK on average get some charge added twice a week, so that would be 52 million charge instances - approx 10 times the number of swaps in China, just for context.
The thing I don't understand is at what point do you swap your battery? If I did a routine 100 mile round journey 5 days a week I'd need to swap out the battery every day, although it would typically have almost 50% charge left. I'm sure I'd get credited for the remaining charge against the new charge but then what about the cost of the swap vs the cost of just using a high speed charger to top up as required each day?
I'm not anti this idea at all - but it does raise all sorts of questions in my mind
TheDeuce said:
If those are total swaps to date then it's slowed - not sure if that's what 'total' means in this instance though?
I guess the half million EV's in the UK on average get some charge added twice a week, so that would be 52 million charge instances - approx 10 times the number of swaps in China, just for context.
The thing I don't understand is at what point do you swap your battery? If I did a routine 100 mile round journey 5 days a week I'd need to swap out the battery every day, although it would typically have almost 50% charge left. I'm sure I'd get credited for the remaining charge against the new charge but then what about the cost of the swap vs the cost of just using a high speed charger to top up as required each day?
I'm not anti this idea at all - but it does raise all sorts of questions in my mind
you save the $10k battery cost of the car but pay $140 a month rental, this includes 6 swaps a month for free, after that you only pay for the amount of additional charge you gain over your battery it was something like 8p / kWh gained I guess the half million EV's in the UK on average get some charge added twice a week, so that would be 52 million charge instances - approx 10 times the number of swaps in China, just for context.
The thing I don't understand is at what point do you swap your battery? If I did a routine 100 mile round journey 5 days a week I'd need to swap out the battery every day, although it would typically have almost 50% charge left. I'm sure I'd get credited for the remaining charge against the new charge but then what about the cost of the swap vs the cost of just using a high speed charger to top up as required each day?
I'm not anti this idea at all - but it does raise all sorts of questions in my mind
you can order them without subbing to the battery swap program
Dave Hedgehog said:
TheDeuce said:
If those are total swaps to date then it's slowed - not sure if that's what 'total' means in this instance though?
I guess the half million EV's in the UK on average get some charge added twice a week, so that would be 52 million charge instances - approx 10 times the number of swaps in China, just for context.
The thing I don't understand is at what point do you swap your battery? If I did a routine 100 mile round journey 5 days a week I'd need to swap out the battery every day, although it would typically have almost 50% charge left. I'm sure I'd get credited for the remaining charge against the new charge but then what about the cost of the swap vs the cost of just using a high speed charger to top up as required each day?
I'm not anti this idea at all - but it does raise all sorts of questions in my mind
you save the $10k battery cost of the car but pay $140 a month rental, this includes 6 swaps a month for free, after that you only pay for the amount of additional charge you gain over your battery it was something like 8p / kWh gained I guess the half million EV's in the UK on average get some charge added twice a week, so that would be 52 million charge instances - approx 10 times the number of swaps in China, just for context.
The thing I don't understand is at what point do you swap your battery? If I did a routine 100 mile round journey 5 days a week I'd need to swap out the battery every day, although it would typically have almost 50% charge left. I'm sure I'd get credited for the remaining charge against the new charge but then what about the cost of the swap vs the cost of just using a high speed charger to top up as required each day?
I'm not anti this idea at all - but it does raise all sorts of questions in my mind
you can order them without subbing to the battery swap program
TheDeuce said:
Thanks - that's interesting. Even the $140 alone is more than I pay to charge my EV but I can see that in place like China where there is very high density living and few have the ability to charge at home, this could be useful. Or of course for very long range requirements, potentially for road freight too.
it also incls the bat rental, and the car price is discounted so your monthly PCP would be lower Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff