In flames: Paris takes 149 electric buses off the road
Discussion
After two fires, Paris temporarily takes the affected model off the road. Similar cases also in southern France and Germany. Are e-buses really safe and ready for use?
https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/in-flames-...
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/vide...
https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/in-flames-...
https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/vide...
Some strong reactions above to that EV fire episode in Paris. This Autocar article gives a balanced view. A couple of sections caught my eye. Hope they aren't too inflammatory:
No matter that petrol and diesel cars can catch fire and many of them do, an electric vehicle fire (there were 54 in London in 2019) commands a lot more attention. A few reasons: the technology is new, so newsworthy; EV fires are complex and often heralded by a highly toxic vapour cloud accompanied by a hissing noise and highly directional jets, followed, possibly, by an explosion; they can occur spontaneously; and putting out an EV fire is virtually impossible. You think it’s out and then it erupts again hours, days or even weeks later.
A battery flame is like a blowtorch that will quickly ignite anything in its path, which is why Christensen wants councils and other organisations to consider EV safety risks in underground car parks, as well as bus depots where vehicles are parked side by side. “In Germany, three bus depots have gone up in flames in the past six or so months,” he says. “Tunnels, ferries, car parks, cargo ships transporting EVs – all the places you find electric vehicles should be considered a safety risk and the appropriate steps taken.”
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/h...
Copenhagen has this containment solution for burning EVs...
No matter that petrol and diesel cars can catch fire and many of them do, an electric vehicle fire (there were 54 in London in 2019) commands a lot more attention. A few reasons: the technology is new, so newsworthy; EV fires are complex and often heralded by a highly toxic vapour cloud accompanied by a hissing noise and highly directional jets, followed, possibly, by an explosion; they can occur spontaneously; and putting out an EV fire is virtually impossible. You think it’s out and then it erupts again hours, days or even weeks later.
A battery flame is like a blowtorch that will quickly ignite anything in its path, which is why Christensen wants councils and other organisations to consider EV safety risks in underground car parks, as well as bus depots where vehicles are parked side by side. “In Germany, three bus depots have gone up in flames in the past six or so months,” he says. “Tunnels, ferries, car parks, cargo ships transporting EVs – all the places you find electric vehicles should be considered a safety risk and the appropriate steps taken.”
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/h...
Copenhagen has this containment solution for burning EVs...
Autocar said:
A battery flame is like a blowtorch that will quickly ignite anything in its path, which is why Christensen wants councils and other organisations to consider EV safety risks in underground car parks, as well as bus depots where vehicles are parked side by side. “In Germany, three bus depots have gone up in flames in the past six or so months,” he says. “Tunnels, ferries, car parks, cargo ships transporting EVs – all the places you find electric vehicles should be considered a safety risk and the appropriate steps taken.”
Metro said:
Buses on fire after ‘huge explosion’ at London transport depot
https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/22/potters-bar-fire-hu...
But no need for concern folks, just business as usual. Nothing to see here https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/22/potters-bar-fire-hu...
Heres Johnny said:
bigothunter said:
But no need for concern folks, just business as usual. Nothing to see here
Max Torque has told us all there's nothing to worry about so we're either imagining it or its the stageset from the latest Tom Cruise film, "Top Bus driver"
Snow and Rocks said:
The graphic quotes fires per 100k sales. ~3500 of each 100k sales have clearly not gone on fire.
There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
Total of 52 electric car fires have been recorded by US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS). Assume that figure applies across all states in a population of 327 million. Whereas London alone experienced 54 EV fires in 2019, in a population of 9 million.There probably is some useful data out there that shows EVs are less likely to go on fire but what they've presented is nonsense.
Almost identical number of EV fires for just 2.8% population. Methinks the data is corrupt
TheDeuce said:
I've become quite relaxed about the anti EV stuff peddled on these forums. I don't agree with any of it, but I take some consolidation in knowing that even the most stubborn will have to accept EV sooner or later regardless of their waffle, because it's set in stone as the future at this point. Even with the occasional bus going super-nova or car running out of juice in a comically inconvenient place.
The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one
So there's no superior alternative? The only intelligent thing for such posters to do would be to suggest a superior alternative - but they can't, because, taking all factors into consideration, there isn't one
Sustainable BUS said:
Trolleybus projects and investments are on a rise in several European countries. Switzerland, France, Austria, Italy, Poland, Czech Republic are among the countries where trolleybus networks are more diffuse. Significant renewal plans are underway. Also Berlin is considering new investments on this technology. On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, Mexico City is giving ‘fresh air’ to its trolleybus fleet as well. Electric bus growing deployment is not the only protagonist of the energy transition in city public transport.
https://www.sustainable-bus.com/trolleybus-tramway...
https://www.sustainable-bus.com/trolleybus-tramway...
Evanivitch said:
Not sure how trolley bus infrastructure is considered a better alternative? The buses will still use batteries too, just smaller.
What makes you believe trolleybuses have batteries for motive power? Unless they are hybrids of course.Regardless smaller lower energy density batteries tend to present less fire risk.
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
What makes you believe trolleybuses have batteries for motive power? Unless they are hybrids of course.
Because batteries are inherent in nearly all electrical drivetrains as they provide better management of peak power demand as well as regenerative power and low-speed off-grid manoeuvring.Do all modern trolleybuses employ batteries to enable low-speed off-grid manoeuvring (unlike classic trolleybuses) ? Huge difference in energy storage required between full BEV and manoeuvring around the depot.
Evanivitch said:
bigothunter said:
Regardless smaller lower energy density batteries tend to present less fire risk.
Citation needed.Whilst fewer cells obviously reduces the risk of a bad cell, smaller batteries tend to be placed under greater stress.
Not a citation but someone already provided an insight...
Evanivitch said:
Interestingly, and only after a quick Google, these busses appear to use Li-Po batteries, which is quite different to the majority of Chinese-derived busses which use the more stable, less prone to thermal-runaway LiFePO4 (LFP) chemistry.
I wonder if we will see legislation that mandates LFP in certain applications. It's lower energy density and output, but also low-cobalt content.
I wonder if we will see legislation that mandates LFP in certain applications. It's lower energy density and output, but also low-cobalt content.
rxe said:
Surely the major difference is the style of fire.
I’ve experienced a diesel fire in a piece of agri equipment that I was moving for a farmer. It had been working hard all day, I drove it back to the farm and there was an “oooh f
k, that’s a lot smoke” moment. Bailed out, grabbing the foam extinguisher on the way, put the fire out, and waited for a pull from a tractor. The handler needed a load of new pipe work, new rad and some paint.
Police specify diesel riot vans not petrol, simply because setting diesel alight is difficult and it's not explosive.I’ve experienced a diesel fire in a piece of agri equipment that I was moving for a farmer. It had been working hard all day, I drove it back to the farm and there was an “oooh f
k, that’s a lot smoke” moment. Bailed out, grabbing the foam extinguisher on the way, put the fire out, and waited for a pull from a tractor. The handler needed a load of new pipe work, new rad and some paint. rxe said:
Contrast with an electric car that seems to burn with the intensity of a star, cannot be put out without a massive tank of water (would have been a bit hard for the telehandler I was driving), and happens at seemingly random moments when the car is not moving.
My understanding is that batteries must be cooled to stop them burning. Apparently that can take days. Probably best to submerge the burning vehicle.TheDeuce said:
We're headed towards BEV's without Li-ion cells - there are hundreds of billions of ££££ invested in the race to that happy future right now. But that is still a BEV future, it's the same direction as we're now headed, it's the next evolution of what BEV is, it's not an alternative at all.
A trolleybus is not a BEV. A hybrid* trolleybus makes use of batteries where its network can't.* My terminology which some don't like...
Evanivitch said:
A phone battery fire on a plane or next to a sleeping person is incredibly dangerous.
I have a creeping suspicion that British Airways have robust safety procedures for mobile phone fires.Evanivitch said:
A bus battery fire on the street can be quickly evacuated and largely contained. A bus fire in a depot would already have safety measures in place.
Fortunately passengers were absent from the EV bus fires in Paris and London. In both cases, buses were allowed to burn rather than being largely contained.Safety measure didn't stop three EV bus depots in Germany, from burning down.
ZesPak said:
bigothunter said:
ZesPak said:
So the alternative to an EV bus is an EV bus that can charge while it's driving?
ok...
What makes you believe trolleybuses need batteries for motive power? ok...
ZesPak said:
But if you want to dig your hole a bit further, show me one trolleybus designed in the past ten years that doesn't need batteries.
If you can't figure out why that would be a stupid design, I can attempt to explain it.
Trolleybuses are technically different to Battery Electric buses. Their primary energy source is from overhead cables.If you can't figure out why that would be a stupid design, I can attempt to explain it.
Isn't that obvious to you?
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