First experience with a PHEV - not the best
Discussion
Hi all
After years of driving EV's as an only car, I was gifted a PHEV (BMW 225e) as a courtesy car the last couple of days.
I've always thought of any form of hybrid as a 'worst of both' compromise, but in terms of modern PHEV's I've had to admit that if the electric only range is enough for most trips, it's a bit of a none brainer.
Now I'm not so sure though as it seems you have to sacrifice almost everything that makes an electric drivetrain so nice in the first place:
- The EV only mode is very weak unless you push it, at which point the ICE engine joins the party.. But this seemed to have the effect of dulling the electric drive response to better pair it with what the ICE was doing. IE: It was faster off the line 0-20mph without the ICE, although faster with it after that point. But it's that initial nippiness that makes electric cars so great around town.
- Regen seemed very weak most of the time, I assume this is because the smaller battery has a lesser ability to accept charge at the rates needed for higher regen? Whatever the reason, it led to some odd cross play between regen and friction braking, it was quite inconsistent.
- In EV only mode it was slow. When I rinsed the battery playing with 'sport boost' ICE only was slow and rough. After a full charge and sport mode selected, it actually drove best, it was smoother and with the ICE and motor both in full time use, it was pretty nippy. But of course this rapidly sunk the charge and I was soon back in eco.
The thing is, these cars do what they say on the tin, they do 40-50 or whatever mile trips on electric only, which makes them cheap to buy/lease and then dirt cheap to run 99% of trips. In that sense it's a cheap way of getting an electric car, one with more than enough range for most people - and the option for unlimited range if required. On the other hand... They're remarkably slow if used that way which makes them a very dull and restrictive feeling car for those 99% of trips. Brim the tank and hit the motorway and as soon as the battery is depleted, you're basically driving an underpowered ICE car that has the added burden of hauling a dead battery pack and motor around.
These cars work in terms of satisfying a requirement, but at the cost of being a consistent and pleasant/fun car to drive. They're cheaper than BEV only if BIK and/or ULEZ aren't a factor. But if someone wants a cheap car and isn't bothered about zero emission, I can't help think that a well equipped used diesel would be as cheap overall and better overall.
I do however often get asked about my BEV by friends and in almost all cases they reveal that they don't want a full electric 'just yet' but are planning on getting a hybrid/PHEV next, for no reason they can explain other than wanting the apparent safety and familiarity of ICE to remain in the mix - so perhaps that's the true purpose of these cars? They exist largely to give EV newbies a gentle way in? If so it makes sense the manufacturers make such cars available while they still can.. But I can't help but wonder how disappointed a lot of owners must be if their first exciting step towards an electric car is a bit... dull - and very compromised.
Anyway, I have no agenda other than to report my feelings after 4 years of pure electric motoring and to promote discussion. Perhaps there's an angle/value I have entirely missed?
After years of driving EV's as an only car, I was gifted a PHEV (BMW 225e) as a courtesy car the last couple of days.
I've always thought of any form of hybrid as a 'worst of both' compromise, but in terms of modern PHEV's I've had to admit that if the electric only range is enough for most trips, it's a bit of a none brainer.
Now I'm not so sure though as it seems you have to sacrifice almost everything that makes an electric drivetrain so nice in the first place:
- The EV only mode is very weak unless you push it, at which point the ICE engine joins the party.. But this seemed to have the effect of dulling the electric drive response to better pair it with what the ICE was doing. IE: It was faster off the line 0-20mph without the ICE, although faster with it after that point. But it's that initial nippiness that makes electric cars so great around town.
- Regen seemed very weak most of the time, I assume this is because the smaller battery has a lesser ability to accept charge at the rates needed for higher regen? Whatever the reason, it led to some odd cross play between regen and friction braking, it was quite inconsistent.
- In EV only mode it was slow. When I rinsed the battery playing with 'sport boost' ICE only was slow and rough. After a full charge and sport mode selected, it actually drove best, it was smoother and with the ICE and motor both in full time use, it was pretty nippy. But of course this rapidly sunk the charge and I was soon back in eco.
The thing is, these cars do what they say on the tin, they do 40-50 or whatever mile trips on electric only, which makes them cheap to buy/lease and then dirt cheap to run 99% of trips. In that sense it's a cheap way of getting an electric car, one with more than enough range for most people - and the option for unlimited range if required. On the other hand... They're remarkably slow if used that way which makes them a very dull and restrictive feeling car for those 99% of trips. Brim the tank and hit the motorway and as soon as the battery is depleted, you're basically driving an underpowered ICE car that has the added burden of hauling a dead battery pack and motor around.
These cars work in terms of satisfying a requirement, but at the cost of being a consistent and pleasant/fun car to drive. They're cheaper than BEV only if BIK and/or ULEZ aren't a factor. But if someone wants a cheap car and isn't bothered about zero emission, I can't help think that a well equipped used diesel would be as cheap overall and better overall.
I do however often get asked about my BEV by friends and in almost all cases they reveal that they don't want a full electric 'just yet' but are planning on getting a hybrid/PHEV next, for no reason they can explain other than wanting the apparent safety and familiarity of ICE to remain in the mix - so perhaps that's the true purpose of these cars? They exist largely to give EV newbies a gentle way in? If so it makes sense the manufacturers make such cars available while they still can.. But I can't help but wonder how disappointed a lot of owners must be if their first exciting step towards an electric car is a bit... dull - and very compromised.
Anyway, I have no agenda other than to report my feelings after 4 years of pure electric motoring and to promote discussion. Perhaps there's an angle/value I have entirely missed?
plfrench said:
It could explain why CG2020UK was struggling so much with my point about EVs being such a bit step forward in responsiveness if their yardstick was purely based on hybrid EV mode which it did seem to be… 
I don't want to reflame specific arguments you might have had elsewhere 
But yes, as I said towards the end of my post above, hybrid is definitely going to give people a very distorted view of the driver benefits of electrification.
The thing is, the PHEV I drove does have decent electric range and it will be very cheap or people that do those sorts of journeys most of the time - as I do in fact. But it's still nearly £40k to buy the car.. so for a bit more ££ or a less prestigious brand they can have a full BEV with 250m+ real world range. Or for quite a bit less they could have a diesel that will be as punchy and ultimately smoother and nicer to drive more of the time.
Hybrids are compromised by nature, and I'm struggling to see who the compromise truly makes sense for, given the relatively high purchase price.
Lots of interesting responses so far
I still can't get on board with the 'best of both worlds' comments, because a hybrid simply can't be as good in electric drive as a pure BEV or as good as an ICE car with a suitably sized engine to power the entire car at all times. I get the feeling from the comments that the 225e I drove is not the best example of a PHEV! Fair enough, but still 'the best' of EV/ICE won't be found in a hybrid will it? It can't be.
It would be very interesting to hear from more people that have lived with both BEV and PHEV for a reasonable amount of time. I can imagine that coming from straight ICE, a car with decent performance that can do 150mpg equivalent feels pretty great, as does the first introduction to electric driving. But I suspect that coming from a pure BEV, both aspects might seem like a step back.
Also I see a lot of comments about them being very tax efficient - but again they're in a different league in terms of BIK, leading to a significant extra monthly charge as a company car. Also not ULEZ exempt.. With the price of BEV's coming down is it not the case that the extra monthlies can be offset by the tax and longer distance running costs? As too can the occasional need to use a public charger. That has to be very occasional for most drivers of recent BEV's given that several can do a real world range of 250+ miles now.
I still can't get on board with the 'best of both worlds' comments, because a hybrid simply can't be as good in electric drive as a pure BEV or as good as an ICE car with a suitably sized engine to power the entire car at all times. I get the feeling from the comments that the 225e I drove is not the best example of a PHEV! Fair enough, but still 'the best' of EV/ICE won't be found in a hybrid will it? It can't be.
It would be very interesting to hear from more people that have lived with both BEV and PHEV for a reasonable amount of time. I can imagine that coming from straight ICE, a car with decent performance that can do 150mpg equivalent feels pretty great, as does the first introduction to electric driving. But I suspect that coming from a pure BEV, both aspects might seem like a step back.
Also I see a lot of comments about them being very tax efficient - but again they're in a different league in terms of BIK, leading to a significant extra monthly charge as a company car. Also not ULEZ exempt.. With the price of BEV's coming down is it not the case that the extra monthlies can be offset by the tax and longer distance running costs? As too can the occasional need to use a public charger. That has to be very occasional for most drivers of recent BEV's given that several can do a real world range of 250+ miles now.
clockworks said:
TheDeuce said:
Lots of interesting responses so far
I still can't get on board with the 'best of both worlds' comments, because a hybrid simply can't be as good in electric drive as a pure BEV or as good as an ICE car with a suitably sized engine to power the entire car at all times. I get the feeling from the comments that the 225e I drove is not the best example of a PHEV! Fair enough, but still 'the best' of EV/ICE won't be found in a hybrid will it? It can't be.
It would be very interesting to hear from more people that have lived with both BEV and PHEV for a reasonable amount of time. I can imagine that coming from straight ICE, a car with decent performance that can do 150mpg equivalent feels pretty great, as does the first introduction to electric driving. But I suspect that coming from a pure BEV, both aspects might seem like a step back.
Also I see a lot of comments about them being very tax efficient - but again they're in a different league in terms of BIK, leading to a significant extra monthly charge as a company car. Also not ULEZ exempt.. With the price of BEV's coming down is it not the case that the extra monthlies can be offset by the tax and longer distance running costs? As too can the occasional need to use a public charger. That has to be very occasional for most drivers of recent BEV's given that several can do a real world range of 250+ miles now.
All cars are a compromise, just have to decide what to compromise on.I still can't get on board with the 'best of both worlds' comments, because a hybrid simply can't be as good in electric drive as a pure BEV or as good as an ICE car with a suitably sized engine to power the entire car at all times. I get the feeling from the comments that the 225e I drove is not the best example of a PHEV! Fair enough, but still 'the best' of EV/ICE won't be found in a hybrid will it? It can't be.
It would be very interesting to hear from more people that have lived with both BEV and PHEV for a reasonable amount of time. I can imagine that coming from straight ICE, a car with decent performance that can do 150mpg equivalent feels pretty great, as does the first introduction to electric driving. But I suspect that coming from a pure BEV, both aspects might seem like a step back.
Also I see a lot of comments about them being very tax efficient - but again they're in a different league in terms of BIK, leading to a significant extra monthly charge as a company car. Also not ULEZ exempt.. With the price of BEV's coming down is it not the case that the extra monthlies can be offset by the tax and longer distance running costs? As too can the occasional need to use a public charger. That has to be very occasional for most drivers of recent BEV's given that several can do a real world range of 250+ miles now.
Of course, a BEV will do more miles on the battery, have more power than a PHEV run in electric mode, and be cheaper to run on journeys up to the maximum range if you charge at home. Will cost as much as ICE if/when you rely on public charging though.
Some cars will be "better" in ICE form than PHEV, sometimes the PHEV will be "better".
You could say the same about comparing turbo and NA petrol cars - a bigger NA engine might be "better" to drive hard, but use a lot more fuel when pottering about.
A PHEV electric motor adds more power, so the IC motor can be smaller and more efficient unless it's being hammered.
If the model of car I wanted to buy was available in ICE, PHEV and BEV, all with the same power, at the same price, then I'd take the BEV (assuming I could do 99% of journeys just charging at home). If I couldn't charge at home, I'd take the ICE.
The PHEV wouldn't make much sense, everything else being equal.
In reality, like for like, a BEV costs more to buy, and I wouldn't save enough on petrol to cover the cost.
My driving mix means PHEV is the best compromise for me right now.
But I disagree any hybrid can truly be the 'best of all worlds'. Best car, maybe, for some people. But even for those people it won't be the best of all worlds, it will simply be the best combination of technologies for them. It might seem a petty point but I think to debate the pros and cons of hybrid/phev, it's important to be realistic about what they represent. a PHEV is not a normal ICE car with an electric power extender, nor it is a normal BEV with an ICE range extender. It's intrinsically a compromise between the two technologies.
stumpage said:
I think this is where Volvo have done well with the PHEV. I have the T8 Polestar Engineered and the power from the combined Petrol and Electric is brilliant, put it in Polestar mode and the instant power off the line from the EV gives it a shunt and the powerful petrol then joins in and it doesn't drop off.
My commute is in Pure (EV mode) which I charge up at the office and will get me to kid 1 school, kid 2 School the office and home (round trip of 20 miles) with no petrol needed. But when that customer calls and a site visit is required (2-3 times a week in my job) I just jump in the car and go, with no thought to distance or planning.
Can't say I'm looking forward to the incoming full EV i4 M50 in March.
One other nice touch from Volvo is the petrol drives the Front and the Elec the Rear. You have a permanent 4WD drive mode setting which is great in the snow.
So yes I think a decent PHEV is great and if it wasn't for the lease company wanting the V60 back I'd have kept it another year.
It'll be interesting to hear how you get on with the full EV.My commute is in Pure (EV mode) which I charge up at the office and will get me to kid 1 school, kid 2 School the office and home (round trip of 20 miles) with no petrol needed. But when that customer calls and a site visit is required (2-3 times a week in my job) I just jump in the car and go, with no thought to distance or planning.
Can't say I'm looking forward to the incoming full EV i4 M50 in March.
One other nice touch from Volvo is the petrol drives the Front and the Elec the Rear. You have a permanent 4WD drive mode setting which is great in the snow.
So yes I think a decent PHEV is great and if it wasn't for the lease company wanting the V60 back I'd have kept it another year.
The i4 charges quickly and has good range, needless to say the M50 is also quite good fun...
I frequently do 200 mile round trips to visit sites for my work. Now the weather has got cold I've bothered to plug in the last couple of times at the services, although I didn't really need to... But anyway, loads of fast chargers around now and in the time it takes to have a pee and grab sandwich the car easily has another 40-50 miles.
I sat there's never really a need to charge because simply reducing cruise speed on the motorway increases range hugely. But personally I prefer to drive 'normally' for a fast car and I'll need to stop anyway so charging is a non issue.
stumpage said:
TheDeuce said:
I sat there's never really a need to charge because simply reducing cruise speed on the motorway increases range hugely. But personally I prefer to drive 'normally' for a fast car and I'll need to stop anyway so charging is a non issue.
So get a car with 500 plus HP and need to drive it at a reduced speed in order to get somewhere! Also I am one of those people that hates coffee and only stops at services to empty myself and fill the car as fast as possible. Oh the news just gets better and better.
I never feel the need to drive the car slowly for the sake of range, nor will you once you're used to it. I also suspect that like me the majority of your journeys won't exceed the range of the car and you'll thoroughly enjoy the 550hp
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 27th November 10:47
Snow and Rocks said:
paralla said:
Interesting that you say the eAWD is great in the snow. I guess Volvo pay that specific use case more attention than some. I know Toyota and Lexus eAWD systems in their PHEV's are not good at all in the snow. You only ever get as much power at the rear wheels as the computer says you can have and very low traction surfaces like snow confuses the computer. I specifically wanted a PHEV with AWD and was suprised at how few there are on the market. No Audi A4, VW Tiguan, XC40 for example.
Out of interest, what makes you say the Toyota PHEV's aren't good in the snow?A neighbour here on a hillside in darkest Aberdeenshire has a RAV4 and he really rates it. It is on winter tyres but it was happily pushing through reasonable drifts and only seemed to struggle when it ran out of ground clearance. A friend's Rx450h performed similarly when we took it out a few years back.
They're obviously not going to compare with a proper heavy duty 4x4 (I've had Land Cruiser's and Hilux for years) but I'd say they're as capable as any other family SUV type car.
Most phev's seem to have ice power to one axle, electric power to the other, as the electric power doesn't need to go through the traditional transmission. This works great when there is a normal level of traction, but at slower speeds with limited traction, not all such cars have a mode that forces synchronisation of the power trains, and those that do still don't seem to get reviewed well as off road/snow cars.
r.ebesh said:
Interesting to read the posts on here - and going back to the OP's point, my wife is set on a BMW Approved 225xe, 2020 fully optioned model, with 5k miles on the clock.
They want £24k for it, which I feel is overpriced given the current used market. But with just a 12m warranty I'd also be concerned about the effects the low mileage may have had on the battery/drivetrain.
She wants it and mainly does 6mile commutes with the occasional 300mile run to visit family so PHEV performance aside, we'll be making an offer.
But it will get rejected and we'll strike PHEV off the list and concentrate on finding a similarly specced petrol (or diesel and take our chances with the DPF).
Phev isn't a bad shout for such short daily drives and with the ability to do the longer journeys. Although personally I do the same sort of trips in my EV and I'm not looking to change that!They want £24k for it, which I feel is overpriced given the current used market. But with just a 12m warranty I'd also be concerned about the effects the low mileage may have had on the battery/drivetrain.
She wants it and mainly does 6mile commutes with the occasional 300mile run to visit family so PHEV performance aside, we'll be making an offer.
But it will get rejected and we'll strike PHEV off the list and concentrate on finding a similarly specced petrol (or diesel and take our chances with the DPF).
If you end up with plain ICE (I havw no idea how overpriced the 225xe actually is) petrol would seem a better bet. Diesel won't enjoy the short miles, petrol will probably be as efficient over a short journey. The biggest cost difference will likely be the value of the diesel dropping more than petrol over your period of ownership.
paralla said:
TheDeuce said:
Snow and Rocks said:
paralla said:
Interesting that you say the eAWD is great in the snow. I guess Volvo pay that specific use case more attention than some. I know Toyota and Lexus eAWD systems in their PHEV's are not good at all in the snow. You only ever get as much power at the rear wheels as the computer says you can have and very low traction surfaces like snow confuses the computer. I specifically wanted a PHEV with AWD and was suprised at how few there are on the market. No Audi A4, VW Tiguan, XC40 for example.
Out of interest, what makes you say the Toyota PHEV's aren't good in the snow?A neighbour here on a hillside in darkest Aberdeenshire has a RAV4 and he really rates it. It is on winter tyres but it was happily pushing through reasonable drifts and only seemed to struggle when it ran out of ground clearance. A friend's Rx450h performed similarly when we took it out a few years back.
They're obviously not going to compare with a proper heavy duty 4x4 (I've had Land Cruiser's and Hilux for years) but I'd say they're as capable as any other family SUV type car.
Most phev's seem to have ice power to one axle, electric power to the other, as the electric power doesn't need to go through the traditional transmission. This works great when there is a normal level of traction, but at slower speeds with limited traction, not all such cars have a mode that forces synchronisation of the power trains, and those that do still don't seem to get reviewed well as off road/snow cars.
A search on YouTube reveals this. From around 4:00 in the video the Lexus clearly doesn’t behave like a conventional AWD transmission with the centre diff locked.
https://youtu.be/wmuBBAeP2G8?si=kbsdx79py_9XD3JI
I don’t know if the rear biased AWD system in my CX-60 will be any better since I haven’t driven it in snow yet but with the electric motor between the petrol engine and the 8 speed automatic transmission I don’t expect it to be any worse than an ICE powered AWD car on the snow.
Looks like the rear wheels do very little until they have some speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5WEX3TmPCY
Edited by paralla on Monday 27th November 13:23
Dual motor BEV is, providing it's setup well by the manufacturer, actually inherently superior to an ICE AWD equivalent.
CG2020UK said:
Nice write up on the BMW blog today regarding the 330e.
As he states he had a preconceived idea that a hybrid would be the worst of both ICE and EV. However having actually lived with one it was the best of both.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2023/11/27/2024-bmw-330e-r...
I'm glad he's happy, it's a great car.As he states he had a preconceived idea that a hybrid would be the worst of both ICE and EV. However having actually lived with one it was the best of both.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2023/11/27/2024-bmw-330e-r...
There's no way it's as good as a pure BEV and also as good as a pure ICE though, assuming both pure cars were a similar model and power/performance etc. That's just not possible.
As previously said, the best all round car/solution, quite possibly. There is a difference.
Snow and Rocks said:
sideways sid said:
All drivetrains and combinations have advantages and disadvantages, which will be partially subjective depending on usage.
With that caveat, a plug-in diesel hybrid would seem to make sense from an engineering perspective.
Short journeys on electric propulsion with a smaller battery, switching to diesel for distance between cities - and to recharge batteries - to switch back to EV for the last mile, seems to tick plenty of boxes.
They're not available. Volvo sold some, but the combination wasn't successful presumably. Is it down to particulates or something else?
I assume it might be related to diesel engines not enjoying the use profile they would get in a hybrid. How they're set up varies but flooring the throttle in a Toyota hybrid and the engine kicks in instantly to give you maximum power. I can't see a diesel enjoying that very much. With that caveat, a plug-in diesel hybrid would seem to make sense from an engineering perspective.
Short journeys on electric propulsion with a smaller battery, switching to diesel for distance between cities - and to recharge batteries - to switch back to EV for the last mile, seems to tick plenty of boxes.
They're not available. Volvo sold some, but the combination wasn't successful presumably. Is it down to particulates or something else?
In addition with the increased cleanliness and efficiency of high pressure turbo, low capacity petrol units, the diesel argument just doesn't stack up for PHEV - or increasingly for any diesel car, although there are clear exceptions where diesel still rules.
cerb4.5lee said:
TheDeuce said:
In addition with the increased cleanliness and efficiency of high pressure turbo, low capacity petrol units, the diesel argument just doesn't stack up for PHEV - or increasingly for any diesel car, although there are clear exceptions where diesel still rules.
Even though I'm mainly a petrolhead(currently have 3 petrols and 1 diesel), I do think that diesel does suit the big and heavy SUVs, and they work well if you do high mileage too I reckon. Diesels are a no-no for short journeys as you say though, plus most of them are crap on fuel if you only use them for that too.
I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to a BEV range rover, even a smaller one like a velar
cerb4.5lee said:
TheDeuce said:
I would say that unless you frequently do very long journeys, pure EV is now best for big SUV's.. immense at the off-road stuff and they're actually fast and corner flat. Electrification has arguably solved a lot of the traditional SUV drawbacks. They even wade better.
I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to a BEV range rover, even a smaller one like a velar
Same. We do between 25k to 30k miles in a big diesel SUV currently(a 7 seater Merc GLE400d weighing 2300kg), and I wouldn't even dream about doing that in an EV SUV at the moment for sure. In my head you'd be running low on battery every 2 minutes, and my range anxiety would be off a cliff for definite! I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to a BEV range rover, even a smaller one like a velar
On the other hand 25-30k miles does suggest very frequent long round trips so quite possibly a diesel is the best choice whilst they're still available and not at risk of taking a big value hit just yet.
At the end of the day, it's never straight forward as there are endless factors at play and the situation itself is fluid. I'm sure you would cope just fine in an EV SUV if one were forced upon you... But you may value aspects of the diesel for so long as that is a practical option. As and when you do end up switching, you'll probably find things to like about an EV too. Specifically in the case of a large SUV, you'll doubtless enjoy a far more responsive and dynamic drive than anything with a heavy diesel mounted up front and high up - even if you do have to think about charging when you take a break most trips.
But in reality you're a known stubborn sod when it comes to EV's so by the time you eventually, reluctantly switch, the EV you switch to will probably have 500+ miles of range so none of it will be an issue at all
cerb4.5lee said:
TheDeuce said:
But in reality you're a known stubborn sod when it comes to EV's so by the time you eventually, reluctantly switch, the EV you switch to will probably have 500+ miles of range so none of it will be an issue at all
By the way I always appreciate your knowledge/experience on this for sure.
The thing is, despite all the differing opinions on EV suitability right now... The fact is that everyone discussing it 'right now' shares a history of driving ICE cars - we all share the same basic experience. I see this as a very exciting time in the car world, because so much is changing so rapidly.
I can bang on for days about the benefits of BEV... I'm excited by progress. But more than that, I think it's exciting to live/drive through the transition period. We're at the crossover point between the pinnacle of ICE development and the insane pace of BEV performance and ability.
There should be a lot less arguments, a lot less side taking, a lot more
, because as car fans we've never had so much variety or new stuff to discuss and experience together CG2020UK said:
TheDeuce said:
There should be a lot less arguments, a lot less side taking, a lot more , because as car fans we've never had so much variety or new stuff to discuss and experience together
I would point out that this whole thread is started by you basically slabbering and arguing about a type of car that plenty of posters are perfectly happy with….., because as car fans we've never had so much variety or new stuff to discuss and experience together You’ve also dropped into it that unless you drive an EV then your car is essentially crap.
You are certainly not coming coming across as the paragon of all car loving and acceptance you maybe think you are.
I've repeatedly said that whilst not the full EV or ICE at their best, phev's may well be the best all round choice for many right now.
I started the thread to question my experience after driving an PHEV for the first time and I have subsequently learned a lot about usage cases and also the differences between different PHEV'S.
That's what happens when you start a discussion, not an argument.
paralla said:
As a dyed in the wool petrolhead I'm starting to get a bit nervous my recently bought PHEV is going to turn me into someone I don't want to be. A total EV bore.
Not once in my life have I ever used price when making a decision about when or where to refuel a car, I've always just filled them up with petrol when they are empty. I just made a deal with myself to never calculate running costs, I'll plug it in at home and the fuel consumption will be whatever it is.
Here's me at Sainsburys last Saturday. Free charging so I thought why not, if they were giving away free petrol there would be a queue around the block. God help me, I considered having a coffee at the Sainsbury's cafe! That's not the man I want to be. Strictly overnight charging from now on, life is too short.
I don't think most of us hybrid/EV drivers spend very much time thinking about the charge costs - it's next to bugger all at home and most people charge away from home so infrequently it's not really worth worrying about how competitive the per kw rate is.Not once in my life have I ever used price when making a decision about when or where to refuel a car, I've always just filled them up with petrol when they are empty. I just made a deal with myself to never calculate running costs, I'll plug it in at home and the fuel consumption will be whatever it is.
Here's me at Sainsburys last Saturday. Free charging so I thought why not, if they were giving away free petrol there would be a queue around the block. God help me, I considered having a coffee at the Sainsbury's cafe! That's not the man I want to be. Strictly overnight charging from now on, life is too short.
But hey, if you find a free charger fill your boots! Free is always worthwhile and seldom 'boring'
Obviously try and avoid supermarket cafe's though. They're for the toothless and unwashed.
DMZ said:
plfrench said:
100% agree - I think it’s a great time to be driving; a step-change in technology is always a fascinating opportunity for development and progress.
Assuming of course one considers bigger heavier less good to drive with little or no engagement and limited range, speed, and usability as progress. If you’re actually into driving as it was once defined. As well as decontenting of interiors to try to hit a lower price point leading to pretty uninspiring places to spend time. Efficiency and what not, for sure there is progress but for anything else not sure I see it or have experienced it. Add to this all the political BS and I think we have pretty much hit peak misery when it comes to cars so I’m probably not in agreement, lol.
Personally my last two EV's are lovely places to sit, feel great to drive and have more useable speed than any other car I've owned. The most useable too, because they have plenty of range every single day and crucially cost next to nothing to enjoy, driven as hard as desired.
OutInTheShed said:
Best car I ever had for 'usable speed' was a V6 Ford.
Because it was 1992 and the roads were more usable at speed in those days.
It's possible that in the next decade, people will realise fast driving on thepublic roads is not much of thing any more?
People have been saying you can't drive for fun on modern roads for at least the last 20 years.Because it was 1992 and the roads were more usable at speed in those days.
It's possible that in the next decade, people will realise fast driving on thepublic roads is not much of thing any more?
It's utter tosh though. There's thousands of miles of well sighted quiet b roads out there.
Snow and Rocks said:
TheDeuce said:
People have been saying you can't drive for fun on modern roads for at least the last 20 years.
It's utter tosh though. There's thousands of miles of well sighted quiet b roads out there.
The thing is though, are there actually any properly fun to drive EVs out there at the moment? Our Model Y LR is obviously fast but accelerating hard in complete silence really isn't anymore fun than stamping on the brakes in any other modern car.It's utter tosh though. There's thousands of miles of well sighted quiet b roads out there.
The steering is quick (but oddly and unnaturally heavy) and the ride is firm and crashy but I'm not really sure you could describe it as fun? Maybe I'm missing something but our £4k 986 Boxster (and, being honest, our completely gutless 2016 diesel Hilux) is way more fun in my opinion.
I've driven most EV's in order to find the ones I actually enjoy driving. By far the best other than the taycan is an iPace imo, that's a view shared by many on here. My current i4 M50 is actually very capable dynamically, it has huge levels of mechanical grip and obviously power to match. But it's more of a GT car in my view. Still, it's intoxicating in a way to drive any car with so much power on tap.
MrTrilby said:
TheDeuce said:
People have been saying you can't drive for fun on modern roads for at least the last 20 years.
It's utter tosh though. There's thousands of miles of well sighted quiet b roads out there.
It’s not the roads, or the drivetrain, it’s the cars. 20 years ago even a quick car would have modest wheels and tyres - 16” wheels would have been considered big and 18” was a super car. Power outputs were modest. Sound deadening was modest. So at legalish speeds on a B road you could be having fun, it would feel like the car was moving around, it would sound like you’re having fun, and yet you’d still be in with a shout of bringing it all to a stop safely if you needed to. It's utter tosh though. There's thousands of miles of well sighted quiet b roads out there.
A modern car has huge tyres with insane levels of grip - so super safe at legal speeds but no chance of feeling the car move around unless you’re being truly stupid. A modern car has a huge emphasis on comfort and sound deadening so the sensation of speed is much lower - it doesn’t feel like you’re going as fast. Add on the near silence of an EV and you’re removing even more of that sensation of speed. A modern car has insane amounts of power so you can hit legalish speeds before you even know it and way before the end of a straight. Yet the roads haven’t changed so you still need to be able to stop for when you or oncoming traffic round the corner and spot the tractor/van/horse/pedestrian/fallen tree/pot hole.
The upside of course to insane levels of grip and acceleration is that overtaking is less of a hassle.
So no, whilst you can still “drive for fun”, it’s different.
And your last sentence is realistic 'its different'. The reality is that back when we had relatively slow cars with skinny tyres, people dreamt of an extra 100hp to make it Evan better. Then we got that extra 100hp and as a result we also got bigger wheels. Overall cars have become faster, cleaner, more practical, safer and comfier. We all miss our own golden age of motoring but few of us would give up on certain creature comforts we've become used to since then...
I think in general, as car buyers, we get what we ask for. The manufacturers are selling us what we want - they're very much motivated to do that. We just have rose tinted specs on as we dream of what was once brilliant, whilst we drive around in a far superior car in great ease and comfort these days!
Electrification has easily bought about the biggest leap in car experience. The jump in power and economy is staggering - and it does kind of show up how crude internal combustion and gearboxes are in terms of making a car move. But it's also a step change and I'm not immune to missing a glorious engine and a perfectly snicky gear change...
My view is that progress is inevitable and we all innocently wish for it. I celebrate what is new, I also love and miss certain aspects of what went before.
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