EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
500TORQUES said:
Chipper said:
O
It’s not a recall because the cars aren’t recalled. Calling it a recall when the car is not recalled is exactly why the press got slated for it. Christ give them some credit that they can solve most problems over the air while virtually every other manufacturer actually has to do an actual recall.
Having a steering wheel fall off you would need to do a recall.
It's a recall, you best read up on what one is because you are posting nonsense.It’s not a recall because the cars aren’t recalled. Calling it a recall when the car is not recalled is exactly why the press got slated for it. Christ give them some credit that they can solve most problems over the air while virtually every other manufacturer actually has to do an actual recall.
Having a steering wheel fall off you would need to do a recall.
It is the USA government agency the United States Department of Transportation that manages recalls and ensures manufacturers handle the required fixes correctly.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls
There are hours of entertainment if you put a manufacturer into the search field.
Not only do they manage the recall's, they also open investigations into issues to further analyse any potential or actual issues, especially safety related. They have the power to withdraw a car make/type from the roads.
The first one i opened for Tesla was this
June 8, 2022 NHTSA ACTION NUMBER: EA22002OPEN INVESTIGATION
Autopilot & First Responder Scenes
NHTSA Action Number: EA22002
Components ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
Opened From: June 8, 2022–Present
Summary
On August 13, 2021, NHTSA’s Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) opened a Preliminary Evaluation (PE21-020) to assess the performance of Tesla’s Autopilot system (a system characterized by Tesla as an SAE Level 2 driving automation system designed to support and assist the driver in performing the driving task) available in Tesla vehicles. The investigation opening was motivated by an accumulation of crashes in which Tesla vehicles, operating with Autopilot engaged, struck stationary in-road or roadside first responder vehicles tending to pre-existing collision scenes. Upon opening the investigation, NHTSA indicated that the PE would also evaluate additional similar circumstance crashes of Tesla vehicles operating with Autopilot engaged, as well as assess the technologies and methods used to monitor, assist, and enforce the driver’s engagement with the dynamic driving task during Autopilot operation.
PE21-020 is upgraded to an Engineering Analysis (EA) to extend the existing crash analysis, evaluate additional data sets, perform vehicle evaluations, and to explore the degree to which Autopilot and associated Tesla systems may exacerbate human factors or behavioral safety risks by undermining the effectiveness of the driver’s supervision. In doing so, NHTSA plans to continue its assessment of vehicle control authority, driver engagement technologies, and related human factors considerations.
The attached Detailed Summary further describes NHTSA’s review to date and the basis for upgrade to an EA.
21 Affected Products
Vehicles
MAKE MODEL YEAR
TESLA MODEL 3 2018-2021
TESLA MODEL S 2014-2021
TESLA MODEL X 2015-2021
TESLA MODEL Y 2020-2021
Do we need to go through every manufacturer recall list and compare now ? The fact they can solve most problems with a simple over the air update while most manufacturers have to actually do a recall I thought was quite good.
Edited by Chipper on Sunday 12th March 06:02
Chipper said:
I’m not disputing the USDT have issued a recall but Tesla didn’t actually have to perform the recall in the first please because they were able to perform a software update . The definition of a recall is officially order (someone) to return to a place. Tesla didn’t need to.
Do we need to go through every manufacturer recoil list and compare now ? The fact they can solve most problems with a simple over the air update while most manufacturers have to actually do a recall I thought was quite good.
How do you have a sensible discussion with someone who posts such nonsense? Do we need to go through every manufacturer recoil list and compare now ? The fact they can solve most problems with a simple over the air update while most manufacturers have to actually do a recall I thought was quite good.
500TORQUES said:
Chipper said:
I’m not disputing the USDT have issued a recall but Tesla didn’t actually have to perform the recall in the first please because they were able to perform a software update . The definition of a recall is officially order (someone) to return to a place. Tesla didn’t need to.
Do we need to go through every manufacturer recoil list and compare now ? The fact they can solve most problems with a simple over the air update while most manufacturers have to actually do a recall I thought was quite good.
How do you have a sensible discussion with someone who posts such nonsense? Do we need to go through every manufacturer recoil list and compare now ? The fact they can solve most problems with a simple over the air update while most manufacturers have to actually do a recall I thought was quite good.
I’m not sure what your fascination is with the recall and why it ‘s been brought up in this discussion as every manufacturer will have recalls but to comfort you below is the list of 2022 manufacturer recalls. Honestly other cars as well as Tesla have to do recalls. And before you post about look how many recalls Tesla has done read this.
Of Tesla’s 19 recalls in 2022, 12 were fixed through Over-the-Air software updates, which download and are installed automatically to fix any qualifying issue. Tesla has fixed everything from windshield defrosting issues, to rolling stops for Full Self-Driving, to delays in backup cameras with software updates.
Six of Tesla’s nineteen recalls in 2022 have required physical repairs from Tesla Service. In total, 31,427 cars have been affected by these types of recalls. That is less than 1 percent of Tesla’s total recall population for the year in the United States, NHTSA data shows.
Ford: 67 recalls (8,636,265 vehicles)
Volkswagen Group: 45 recalls (1,040,885 vehicles)
FCA/Stellantis: 38 recalls (3,041,431 vehicles)
Mercedes-Benz: 33 recalls (969,993 vehicles)
General Motors: 32 recalls (3,371,302 vehicles)
Kia: 24 recalls (1,458,962 vehicles)
Hyundai: 22 recalls (1,452,101 vehicles)
Tesla: 20 recalls (3,769,581 vehicles)
BMW: 19 recalls (1,000,455 vehicles)
Nissan: 15 recalls (1,568,385 vehicles)
Lastly I’ve given up for now with this thread but will be back in 12 months ( or maybe sooner ) to do an update on my sentiment. I will leave with my initial predication.. This is all IMO from a chap sat on his sofa.
Within the next 3 months all EV manufacturers will have to drop their prices to compete with Tesla. Tesla will still make a lovely profit while the majority will either just about break even or have to retail them at a loss.
Tesla and the Chinese and possibly the South Koreans will lead the EV market within 4 years time. ( they already do )
Some of the legacy manufacturers will collapse and some will survive but nothing like their former self within 5 years.
All my predications and only time will tell .
Edited by Chipper on Sunday 12th March 07:14
There are two issues with cars (or any product) developing a potential fault.
What risk it poses to the users.
How inconvenient the fix is.
The actual risk to users is usually extremely small, even if the consequences of the fault are serious enough to warrant rectifying it.
No, it’s the inconvenience that matters.
If the fix is a simple over the air update then it’s far less of an issue than having to schedule a repair at the dealer.
I once had to take an iMac back to the store and leave it for a week for a warranty hard drive replacement due the model having a high failure rate (mine hadn’t failed yet), it was way more inconvenient that the dozens of software bug fixes and security patches that Apple have done over the air to the machine since, mostly with me unaware of them.
It’s not the same.
What risk it poses to the users.
How inconvenient the fix is.
The actual risk to users is usually extremely small, even if the consequences of the fault are serious enough to warrant rectifying it.
No, it’s the inconvenience that matters.
If the fix is a simple over the air update then it’s far less of an issue than having to schedule a repair at the dealer.
I once had to take an iMac back to the store and leave it for a week for a warranty hard drive replacement due the model having a high failure rate (mine hadn’t failed yet), it was way more inconvenient that the dozens of software bug fixes and security patches that Apple have done over the air to the machine since, mostly with me unaware of them.
It’s not the same.
soupdragon1 said:
Ask yourself why Tesla cut China/US/Europe prices instead of using surplus volume to expand into other countries. Any thoughts as to why? They could have kept prices higher, made more profit per vehicle yet bizarrely, chose not to. If that's not an alarm bell, I don't know what is
I'd suggest it's because those 3 are by far the biggest markets for new cars (especially EV's), and disrupting them by lowering prices when every other manufacturer is putting theirs up will be worth a more in the long term than expanding into others?Edited by soupdragon1 on Saturday 11th March 19:58
Where were you thinking BTW, as I'm struggling to come up with anywhere else that is likely to have significant demand for the products in question?
Archie2050 said:
It’s not the same.
This.Here's an example of an EV software issue that still required owners to visit a dealer in order to resolve it. No biggie though, just the possibility of a complete loss of all electrical power randomly.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36904751/porsch...
Edited by SWoll on Sunday 12th March 08:03
Now seems like a good time to buy an EV. Had a test drive in a 2019 leaf yesterday and really liked it.
It looks like the cheapest and potentially easiest place to buy one from is cinch....they'll deliver it and collect my px. They've got 2019/20 Tekna spec cars with less than 15k miles on them for around £16.5k, which feels really good value.
I'm struggling to see a reason not to.
It looks like the cheapest and potentially easiest place to buy one from is cinch....they'll deliver it and collect my px. They've got 2019/20 Tekna spec cars with less than 15k miles on them for around £16.5k, which feels really good value.
I'm struggling to see a reason not to.
Defo worth reading up on the pre 2020 Leaf's charging ability, something about not coping with a high load, so if you need a charge on the road I'm pretty sure they default to accepting the equivalent of a 3-pin's worth of juice. Might be wrong but it has been pointed out a few times in th buying forum from people who have them.
Macron said:
Defo worth reading up on the pre 2020 Leaf's charging ability, something about not coping with a high load, so if you need a charge on the road I'm pretty sure they default to accepting the equivalent of a 3-pin's worth of juice. Might be wrong but it has been pointed out a few times in th buying forum from people who have them.
We've been running an 2011 leaf for 3 years and only ever charge at home so it'll rarely, if ever be used for longer trips. But worth knowing, cheers.Said i wouldnt post but i have to leave you all with this.
Be aware is NSFW
https://twitter.com/foxmediallc/status/16116894955...
Be aware is NSFW
https://twitter.com/foxmediallc/status/16116894955...
Chipper said:
CG2020UK said:
Surely but as Tesla’s are just white goods it’s not hard to fathom that people will spend extra to drive something with a nicer interior or is better to drive.
I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
But it’s not £1000, £2000 difference we are talking about here. It’s a £10000 difference for vehicles that don’t even have a proper charging network so you can actually drive them without having a panic attack from London to Edinburgh. Who gives a damn about a dash or interior trim if the car fails at the first hurdle on the one thing it should be good at. Ie actually getting you from A to B easily and stress free ! I think the majority of car manufacturers will be fine.
The only argument people seem to have is that they don’t like the dash or the build quality is poor or Elon is a cock. Honestly take all the emotion out of this and look at the bigger picture. We are only a few years away from the end of ICE production and the only choice we will have are EV’s. So 100 people need a form of transport and they all have £50000 to spend. You have the model 3 at £40000 and every other vehicle in the same category is £50000. The Tesla has more kit even though it’s cheaper, you don’t have to service it at all, has the ability to do wireless updates and a charging network that actually works. You also have the fact for a lot of the younger generation Tesla is the car to own. Then you have the rest which are £10000 more and can be a struggle to charge on long runs. I would guess of that 100 a minimum of 40 people would take the Tesla but honestly I think it would be a lot higher.
I wouldn't entertain a Tesla because of subjective elements: mediocre external design, lack of interior buttons, 'minimalist' (read: cheap) interior not my thing. They still have a rep for shoddy build quality too which doesn't help. At their price point, Teslas just don't look or feel like premium cars to me. But that's okay, a market should offer choices.
Edited by silent ninja on Sunday 12th March 09:07
silent ninja said:
I just bought an electric car and Tesla's supercharger network wasn't a key selling point for me. I will charge 98% of the time at home and we drive within a 50 mile zone for most of our miles. For the remainder, the network isn't the best but it's there on ZapMap and is improving.
I wouldn't entertain a Tesla because of subjective elements: mediocre external design, lack of interior buttons, 'minimalist' (read: cheap) interior not my thing. They still have a rep for shoddy build quality too which doesn't help. At their price point, Teslas just don't look or feel like premium cars to me. But that's okay, a market should offer choices.
Silent i totally agree with your sentiment and like you say everyone has choices. I wouldn't entertain a Tesla because of subjective elements: mediocre external design, lack of interior buttons, 'minimalist' (read: cheap) interior not my thing. They still have a rep for shoddy build quality too which doesn't help. At their price point, Teslas just don't look or feel like premium cars to me. But that's okay, a market should offer choices.
Edited by silent ninja on Sunday 12th March 09:07
silent ninja said:
I just bought an electric car and Tesla's supercharger network wasn't a key selling point for me. I will charge 98% of the time at home and we drive within a 50 mile zone for most of our miles. For the remainder, the network isn't the best but it's there on ZapMap and is improving.
I wouldn't entertain a Tesla because of subjective elements: mediocre external design, lack of interior buttons, 'minimalist' (read: cheap) interior not my thing. They still have a rep for shoddy build quality too which doesn't help. At their price point, Teslas just don't look or feel like premium cars to me. But that's okay, a market should offer choices.
You've signed up for a cheap SS deal, not bought a car. Rather a different proposition I'd suggest?I wouldn't entertain a Tesla because of subjective elements: mediocre external design, lack of interior buttons, 'minimalist' (read: cheap) interior not my thing. They still have a rep for shoddy build quality too which doesn't help. At their price point, Teslas just don't look or feel like premium cars to me. But that's okay, a market should offer choices.
Edited by silent ninja on Sunday 12th March 09:07
Had you bought the car then your choice would have cost you the best part of £70k, or £20k more than the comparable Tesla Product (MY LR).
Chipper said:
Silent i totally agree with your sentiment and like you say everyone has choices.
Exactly. I can, from experience, say my model 3 is a nicer place to be than a 7 series or an E-class. Quieter, much better audio, better tech, faster, comfortable, spacious & light inside, super reliable. They’re a bargain currently, be surprised if prices don’t start to go back up once the EV knocking dies a death, as it will.
dfen5 said:
Chipper said:
Silent i totally agree with your sentiment and like you say everyone has choices.
Exactly. I can, from experience, say my model 3 is a nicer place to be than a 7 series or an E-class. Quieter, much better audio, better tech, faster, comfortable, spacious & light inside, super reliable. They’re a bargain currently, be surprised if prices don’t start to go back up once the EV knocking dies a death, as it will.
superlightr said:
sounds like a suitable white goods. I still like my cars to be fun but I know Im in a minority.
Hitting 60 in 3 seconds, instant overtakes and the handling from the low centre of gravity is more fun than you’d think. Chris Harris put one up against a bunch of ‘sports’ cars. YouTube it, not exactly boring when it’s faster in a slalom than an Alfa Giulia, beats a C63s up to 130mph plus..dfen5 said:
Exactly. I can, from experience, say my model 3 is a nicer place to be than a 7 series or an E-class. Quieter, much better audio, better tech, faster, comfortable, spacious & light inside, super reliable.
They’re a bargain currently, be surprised if prices don’t start to go back up once the EV knocking dies a death, as it will.
Had one for 2 years, and can't agree with you. An Audi A4/BMW 3 series most definitely but it never felt anything like a higher end premium product IMHO.They’re a bargain currently, be surprised if prices don’t start to go back up once the EV knocking dies a death, as it will.
Our current etron wipes the floor with it from noise, audio, comfort and space perspective. And that's before we get to discussing the overall feeling of solidity, materials and build quality. But then it should as the starting price is almost double that of the Model 3.
dfen5 said:
Hitting 60 in 3 seconds, instant overtakes and the handling from the low centre of gravity is more fun than you’d think. Chris Harris put one up against a bunch of ‘sports’ cars. YouTube it, not exactly boring when it’s faster in a slalom than an Alfa Giulia, beats a C63s up to 130mph plus..
Think it depends of traffic light GPS are your thing or not. I’ve never launched a car from 0 as it’s just not my thing. Harris also comments how Tesla’s die at basically 100mph and how bad it is to drive. Watch the video and in the drag race it struggles to go from 116mph to 117mph even.
The slalom result against the Giulia is entirely made up of its start.
I’ll attach the video for other peoples reference.
https://youtu.be/h8R7kZGvAUk
However a Model 3 performance is a bit different to your normal Model 3 in the same way an M3 is leagues above a 330d.
dfen5 said:
Exactly. I can, from experience, say my model 3 is a nicer place to be than a 7 series or an E-class. Quieter, much better audio, better tech, faster, comfortable, spacious & light inside, super reliable.
They’re a bargain currently, be surprised if prices don’t start to go back up once the EV knocking dies a death, as it will.
It's difficult to see prices increasing but they will certainly level off, like most EVs they need to find their level on the used market that is alot different to the new market that comes with all sorts of benefits and incentives especially for business users.They’re a bargain currently, be surprised if prices don’t start to go back up once the EV knocking dies a death, as it will.
The other problem for Tesla and likely other EV owners is that new prices are also falling back, with new tech especially battery manufacturing costs predicted to reduce over time and with competition from China to increase this will only drive down the prices on the used market as new tech becomes available.
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