EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
monkfish1 said:
For all the Ford bashing, it rather misses the point. As do the BMW results.
Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
That's not quite right. Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
. All they need to is price their EVs to increase demand. What Ford is really saying is that they don't want to be inciting the wrath of their shareholders should they need to trim the dividend for a few years to protect their market share. What they would obviously prefer to do is maintain the divi and get you to pay for their problem to go away. They are very obviously not going to be increasing the price of their ICE offering as they have absolutely no brand power by which to do so and obtain any sales. It's just a bulls
t whinge from a substandard Board who desperately hope the U.K. government will use our money to subsidise an overseas corporate to allow them to keep paying the divi to their shareholders. Meanwhile the likes of Tesla just keep discounting to find demand and reap the rewards of not having to pay a divi, being able to build cheaper, having credits to sell and most crucially, not sitting in millions of used cars on their balance sheet that are price manipulated to get PCP deals away on new cars.
It's going to be a bit of a choppy time for some of the incumbents but who cares? It's genuinely not our job to bankroll or subsidise them. They're global, corporate, capitalist entities that need to compete or die and those that die will just be replaced.
Ford don't build any cars in the U.K. Dagenham and Halewood are tied to ICE so set to be done before 2035. Their research facility is ICE focussed. They have zero intent to remain in the U.K. adding to the economy so they just need to file it out with their competition for our business and if they can't hack it against anybody the other German manufacturers, the French, or any of the Asian competitors then bye bye losers.
LivLL said:
Whereas other among us would quite like the freedom of choice to be able to drive 200 miles even if that is an “edge case” despite being done by hundreds of thousands of drivers every year.
It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Thing is you can drive an EV beyond it's range. You just stop and charge. I could quite happily jump in my not fully charged EV and go and mooch to the South of France right now. It isn't impossible. It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:24
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:25
There seems to be an assumption on here that anything over the vehicles range is so much of a faff it might as well be impossible.
Those with EVs probably know this isn't the case, especially now the infrastructure is immeasurably better than is was 3 years ago.
Is it perfect? No. However impossible it is not.
Merry said:
LivLL said:
Whereas other among us would quite like the freedom of choice to be able to drive 200 miles even if that is an “edge case” despite being done by hundreds of thousands of drivers every year.
It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Thing is you can drive an EV beyond it's range. You just stop and charge. I could quite happily jump in my not fully charged EV and go and mooch to the South of France right now. It isn't impossible. It’s all a little communist to suggest that it’s fine for these journeys to become impossible through enforcement.
It’s all moot anyway as there are plenty of EVs than can do 200 miles or more in one hit.
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:24
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 8th May 12:25
There seems to be an assumption on here that anything over the vehicles range is so much of a faff it might as well be impossible.
Those with EVs probably know this isn't the case, especially now the infrastructure is immeasurably better than is was 3 years ago.
Is it perfect? No. However impossible it is not.
FiF said:
Then if you have a set of spaces for a local area how do you stop the selfish from plugging in and walking home leaving it overnight, say.
Before anyone piles on, this is nit in any way saying, this is a situation as it stands, therefore the wholesale move towards electrification is therefore doomed, far from it. Merely identifying challenges that can be met with sufficient will and guidance from the powers that be.
They police it like they do with child & parent and disabled spaces. Oh wait they don't do that because they can't.Before anyone piles on, this is nit in any way saying, this is a situation as it stands, therefore the wholesale move towards electrification is therefore doomed, far from it. Merely identifying challenges that can be met with sufficient will and guidance from the powers that be.
There's nothing to stop any car taking up a charging spot EV or non-EV is there. People already just park in whatever parking spot they want to and park how they want to. Supermarkets aren't going to employ someone to go around checking which cars are plugged in and charging are they.
This is why it isn't going to really work, especially if the charging times remain the same. Unless every car parking space is becomes a charging parking space, then it won't work. Already at Tesco during the peak time there were zero EV chargers free. The same cars were there when I went in and came back out after an hour. So it would have made it impossible to charge up while doing my weekly shop as some have suggested. The only option would be to go to the next set of chargers and hope they are free, after returning home to put my frozen food aware before it defrosts. Making it kind of pointless really and just like using an ICE by going to the petrol station.
I think the only solution for public charging is making charging stations where there are petrol stations. Solely relying on Supermarkets to make up the numbers just isn't going to cut it with more and more EVs on the roads.
It will be interesting to see how Tesla get on now there is a raft of new model competition hitting the market.
It isn't clear what Tesla's future model plans are. They have one model which is 12 years old and another which is at least 6 years old in an industry which 7 year model cycles are the norm. The truth is there is a high fashion element to the car industry with drivers very reluctant to go for the exact same model twice (or even three times) or buy/choose anything which has been around for a while.
I can't see them being able to retain market share in the Model 3/Y sector beyond 2026 or so without some new cars there.
It isn't clear what Tesla's future model plans are. They have one model which is 12 years old and another which is at least 6 years old in an industry which 7 year model cycles are the norm. The truth is there is a high fashion element to the car industry with drivers very reluctant to go for the exact same model twice (or even three times) or buy/choose anything which has been around for a while.
I can't see them being able to retain market share in the Model 3/Y sector beyond 2026 or so without some new cars there.
Re. the Ford point, they were quite vocal supporters of the ZEV Mandate not so long ago, it's all a bit awkward how things have gone wrong in such a short space of time - as I said above, I suspect they've got everything and the kitchen sink for the future of Ford passenger vehicles UK riding on the Electric Puma (or Gen-e as they've decided to call it)...
"Ford remains absolutely committed to delivering an all-electric car line-up by
2030, and commercial vehicle line-up by 2035, and has supported the
development of the Government’s ZEV mandate."
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/1...
"Ford remains absolutely committed to delivering an all-electric car line-up by
2030, and commercial vehicle line-up by 2035, and has supported the
development of the Government’s ZEV mandate."
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/1...
DonkeyApple said:
When you consider the average daily mileage of the U.K. then you realise that the overnight electricity demand isn't going to be an issue. What you're actually looking at is millions of EVs just grazing for an hour or two topping back up to 80% having only done a handful of miles that day. This night demand is not only easily catered for but will make the grid more efficient as the current low demand for energy at night causes inefficiencies. We're also migrating away from core fossil fuel on demand generation to using more wind generation which we have no control over so when it is produced at night there is no market for it which will be solved by the storage systems dumped on millions of driveways.
Meanwhile, just consider how dangerous and crippling to the U.K. economy our total dependency on the value of the USD and the OPEC controlled price of oil is? The economic gains from weakening the need to peg the GBP to the USD and to also suck BRIC and OPEC balls for oil are manifest. The irony here is that EVs and renewables deliver the U.K. a freedom that so many have been demanding ever since the end of Empire.
And here's the other thing, no one is forcing you to buy an EV. Why are so many people so convinced that there is some imaginary force out there that is demanding they purchase an EV? You can keep your car, I don't get why you'd make out that you can't?
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!Meanwhile, just consider how dangerous and crippling to the U.K. economy our total dependency on the value of the USD and the OPEC controlled price of oil is? The economic gains from weakening the need to peg the GBP to the USD and to also suck BRIC and OPEC balls for oil are manifest. The irony here is that EVs and renewables deliver the U.K. a freedom that so many have been demanding ever since the end of Empire.
And here's the other thing, no one is forcing you to buy an EV. Why are so many people so convinced that there is some imaginary force out there that is demanding they purchase an EV? You can keep your car, I don't get why you'd make out that you can't?
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
I’d be careful there.Is suspect that vanishingly few petrol cars will retain much value beyond their utility use in the medium to long term. I doubt any mainstream hot hatch will be seen as special enough.
The number of people motivated to run a Focus when performance EVs are below 10k used, offer vastly better performance and minimal running costs, purely out of nostalgia will be small enough not to support values.
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
Possibly, but you need to factor in running costs. Assuming 10k miles a year, an EV would save about £2k in fuel over the ST. You'll need to add servicing etc on top of that too.Ankh87 said:
There's nothing to stop any car taking up a charging spot EV or non-EV is there. People already just park in whatever parking spot they want to and park how they want to. Supermarkets aren't going to employ someone to go around checking which cars are plugged in and charging are they.
When they put rapids in like Sainsburys are doing, they absolutely will police it. Those parking spaces become revenue generating, and one thing supermarkets don't do is pass up revenue generation. Ankh87 said:
Unless every car parking space is becomes a charging parking space
In time they will. Slow <7kWh charging will be ubiquitous in nearly all parking spaces. It'll become the norm that if a car is parked, it's plugged in.Ankh87 said:
I think the only solution for public charging is making charging stations where there are petrol stations. Solely relying on Supermarkets to make up the numbers just isn't going to cut it with more and more EVs on the roads.
Which is exactly what's going to happen, gradually. Here is Shell's converted petrol station in Fulham, which is now exclusively EV chargers:CheesecakeRunner said:
Ankh87 said:
There's nothing to stop any car taking up a charging spot EV or non-EV is there. People already just park in whatever parking spot they want to and park how they want to. Supermarkets aren't going to employ someone to go around checking which cars are plugged in and charging are they.
When they put rapids in like Sainsburys are doing, they absolutely will police it. Those parking spaces become revenue generating, and one thing supermarkets don't do is pass up revenue generation. Ankh87 said:
Unless every car parking space is becomes a charging parking space
In time they will. Slow <7kWh charging will be ubiquitous in nearly all parking spaces. It'll become the norm that if a car is parked, it's plugged in.As for making every space a charging space, that would mean there's less car parking spaces as you need to put the charging machine somewhere. If spaces are back to back like most are, then where does this charger fit? Most spaces these days are barely big enough for a normal size car.
DonkeyApple said:
monkfish1 said:
For all the Ford bashing, it rather misses the point. As do the BMW results.
Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
That's not quite right. Overall, we are not going to meet the 22% of sales target. The only outcome, as Ford say, is a restriction on ICE sales. That applies across most manufacturers. Most of them face the same choices.
That some, such as BMW have manged to achieve higher, isnt an example of adapt or die, just managed to snatch a bigger slice of that market in the short term. Good work nonetheless. However, if everybody "adapted" as you put it. the end result across the uk fleet in terms of sales is no different. Ie, overall vehicle sales decline. They have to, there is no other potential remotely feasible outcome. Any other outcome requires a rapid rise in demand.
Which has the perverse outcome of reducing the number of older vehicles, the more polluting ones, being scrapped.
The manufactuers, have limited ability to create demand. I accept they have some influence, but certainly not a lot.
. All they need to is price their EVs to increase demand. What Ford is really saying is that they don't want to be inciting the wrath of their shareholders should they need to trim the dividend for a few years to protect their market share. What they would obviously prefer to do is maintain the divi and get you to pay for their problem to go away. They are very obviously not going to be increasing the price of their ICE offering as they have absolutely no brand power by which to do so and obtain any sales. It's just a bulls
t whinge from a substandard Board who desperately hope the U.K. government will use our money to subsidise an overseas corporate to allow them to keep paying the divi to their shareholders. Meanwhile the likes of Tesla just keep discounting to find demand and reap the rewards of not having to pay a divi, being able to build cheaper, having credits to sell and most crucially, not sitting in millions of used cars on their balance sheet that are price manipulated to get PCP deals away on new cars.
It's going to be a bit of a choppy time for some of the incumbents but who cares? It's genuinely not our job to bankroll or subsidise them. They're global, corporate, capitalist entities that need to compete or die and those that die will just be replaced.
Ford don't build any cars in the U.K. Dagenham and Halewood are tied to ICE so set to be done before 2035. Their research facility is ICE focussed. They have zero intent to remain in the U.K. adding to the economy so they just need to file it out with their competition for our business and if they can't hack it against anybody the other German manufacturers, the French, or any of the Asian competitors then bye bye losers.
But it isnt really about Ford is it.
But i dont think you are living in reality. As has been some with some of the crazy discounting of a couple of over stocked models, the price at which you can shift EV's easily is so far below anything sensible, that no company can sustain that. Take the Maxus T90. At £51 per month, they got them sold. But thats what they had to come down to to sell them.
Surely you can see, thats just not viable for any vehicle manufactuer?
Tesla will be interesting as its now a rather old design, with, at least visibly, no serious updates coming. If they flog them all cheap, how will they invest in the next model?
But, my point was, if we dont reach 22% of sales being EV natuarally, then sales of ICE will be restricted. By every company that cant get to 22%. Which by virtue of current sales is most of them.
The take away from Fords statement is about trying to sell a product for which there is insufficent demand. Thats NOT a Ford only problem. And if demand grows slower than the mandate targets, a growing problem.
The spin off being a greater number of old cars on the road than would otherwise be the case.
Im making no point beyond that, other than the fact, it can hardly be a surprise.
Ankh87 said:
They police it like they do with child & parent and disabled spaces. Oh wait they don't do that because they can't.
There's nothing to stop any car taking up a charging spot EV or non-EV is there. People already just park in whatever parking spot they want to and park how they want to. Supermarkets aren't going to employ someone to go around checking which cars are plugged in and charging are they.
This is why it isn't going to really work, especially if the charging times remain the same. Unless every car parking space is becomes a charging parking space, then it won't work. Already at Tesco during the peak time there were zero EV chargers free. The same cars were there when I went in and came back out after an hour. So it would have made it impossible to charge up while doing my weekly shop as some have suggested. The only option would be to go to the next set of chargers and hope they are free, after returning home to put my frozen food aware before it defrosts. Making it kind of pointless really and just like using an ICE by going to the petrol station.
I think the only solution for public charging is making charging stations where there are petrol stations. Solely relying on Supermarkets to make up the numbers just isn't going to cut it with more and more EVs on the roads.
Plenty of retailer car parks have time limits already. Read the signage and many will impose fines beyond two hours where the parking is free and might be used by folks wanting to go off elsewhere. There's nothing to stop any car taking up a charging spot EV or non-EV is there. People already just park in whatever parking spot they want to and park how they want to. Supermarkets aren't going to employ someone to go around checking which cars are plugged in and charging are they.
This is why it isn't going to really work, especially if the charging times remain the same. Unless every car parking space is becomes a charging parking space, then it won't work. Already at Tesco during the peak time there were zero EV chargers free. The same cars were there when I went in and came back out after an hour. So it would have made it impossible to charge up while doing my weekly shop as some have suggested. The only option would be to go to the next set of chargers and hope they are free, after returning home to put my frozen food aware before it defrosts. Making it kind of pointless really and just like using an ICE by going to the petrol station.
I think the only solution for public charging is making charging stations where there are petrol stations. Solely relying on Supermarkets to make up the numbers just isn't going to cut it with more and more EVs on the roads.
It also won't just be supermarket car parks offering charging but all retail car parks, employer car parks etc.
Dedicated land such as replicating the petrol station network will only be viable for higher cost, super fast charging due to timings. If there is no other commercial enterprise then the chargers will need to be located where dedicated customer flow is high and each customer is processed rapidly.
As the number of EV users expands then there will be more and more commercial benefit to offering charging facilities. For example, a particular farm shop next to us has had EV charging facilities for years and adds more every couple of years. Conversely, the Aldi down the road has none. Why? Because one business has a customer demographic that already uses EVs and it wants to draw them in while Aldi is years away from there being any benefit from offering charging services. In the middle are the likes of Tescos who Chuck a few in partly to look good and partly to try and draw in customers.
Over time pretty much every car park will add chargers and grow their network as these are the locations where everyone tends to leave their car for reasonable periods of time while doing something else.
There is also the interesting aspect that EVs are going to eventually allow electricity to be removed from them. Now that is pitched as being useful for running the house from the car battery during peak times and then refilling it off peak but it also opens the market to selling your cheap overnight electricity to a mini grid when you park and plug in. So while some are parking at Tescos needing to buy electricity while there, others will be parking up wanting to sell.
On top of all of that you obviously have millions of driveways with chargers on them that won't always have the household car there. These people have been able to rent out parking to commuters, shoppers, tourists for years and it's a very popular activity. Those who have charging facilities are now commanding a premium as its a brilliant way to arrive at a city and have a prebooked parking space which will also top up your car while there.
And all of this gets developed while the majority of car users are just happily continuing to use their ICE vehicle.
There really isn't the issue that some think it just boils down to their impatience of wanting it all now or their fear due to being easily led by media wanting to sell ad space.
confused_buyer said:
...The truth is there is a high fashion element to the car industry with drivers very reluctant to go for the exact same model twice (or even three times) or buy/choose anything which has been around for a while...
I think the fashion element is an interesting point. When your dishwasher breaks, or you need a new hoover, assuming I was happy with the old one, I would just usually buy the same one again. But I agree, with cars it is a bit different.I'd would like to replace my model 3 as it is over three years old, but I'm not rushing to get a new model 3, even though I think it is the probably the best car for my needs. I'd quite like something different, and if I saw a 'cheap' deal for something else I might be tempted. But on the other hand, I like all of the things about Tesla, including the supercharging network, ease of use, reliability, efficiency, performance etc etc. Objectively, nothing much competes with the overall package imo.
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
Everyone who loves ICE and wants to keep using it for pleasure just needs to have begun planning how they will do that. Most people will just keep their head in the sand and only surface to whinge about how the prices of old Focus STs have risen too far. Others will just be enjoying their Focus ST which they paid bugger all for and have looked after intelligently. I'm quite tempted by the GR Yaris as it could be a great ICE classic, seems well built and won't take up much space.
EddieSteadyGo said:
confused_buyer said:
...The truth is there is a high fashion element to the car industry with drivers very reluctant to go for the exact same model twice (or even three times) or buy/choose anything which has been around for a while...
I think the fashion element is an interesting point. When your dishwasher breaks, or you need a new hoover, assuming I was happy with the old one, I would just usually buy the same one again. But I agree, with cars it is a bit different.I'd would like to replace my model 3 as it is over three years old, but I'm not rushing to get a new model 3, even though I think it is the probably the best car for my needs. I'd quite like something different, and if I saw a 'cheap' deal for something else I might be tempted. But on the other hand, I like all of the things about Tesla, including the supercharging network, ease of use, reliability, efficiency, performance etc etc. Objectively, nothing much competes with the overall package imo.
It'll be interesting to see how BYD open up the U.K. market. Someone like that is a huge potential threat to an ICE manufacturer trying to hit 22% EV sales.
BricktopST205 said:
GT9 said:
These guys are producing them now: https://trans.info/en/renaults-44-tonne-electric-t...
Volvo as well I think.
Renault trucks are Volvo owned and have been for like 20 years. They are essentially the same company. Think of a Renault Truck your Skoda to your Audi. Volvo as well I think.
300KM is also absolutely nothing range for a lorry and complete niche for the most part and is not sustainable until the infrastructure is there to support it.
In the last year I can count on 1 hand the amount of times I did less than 300KM in a day and they were all bank holidays!!
Where am I going to get my charge from when I am delivering and collecting from farmer john down a dirt track that has been there for 400 years!?
You are lucky to get a clean working toilet at an RDC yet you expect them to full install an expensive charging network on site out of their own back pocket? Not going to happen.
It is hillarious just how out of touch so many people are to the real world.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Wednesday 8th May 11:33
But that's not to say they are useless. Not all haulage is long distance. I can see an application in shunting vehicles, for example, as well as short-distance trunking and city work.
Just because electric power isn't viable for all haulage doesn't mean it's not viable for any haulage.
Much like private EV use for consumers........Funny that!
Ankh87 said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
Ankh87 said:
There's nothing to stop any car taking up a charging spot EV or non-EV is there. People already just park in whatever parking spot they want to and park how they want to. Supermarkets aren't going to employ someone to go around checking which cars are plugged in and charging are they.
When they put rapids in like Sainsburys are doing, they absolutely will police it. Those parking spaces become revenue generating, and one thing supermarkets don't do is pass up revenue generation. Ankh87 said:
Unless every car parking space is becomes a charging parking space
In time they will. Slow <7kWh charging will be ubiquitous in nearly all parking spaces. It'll become the norm that if a car is parked, it's plugged in.As for making every space a charging space, that would mean there's less car parking spaces as you need to put the charging machine somewhere. If spaces are back to back like most are, then where does this charger fit? Most spaces these days are barely big enough for a normal size car.
Downside could be another opportunity for the private parking bandits.
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