EVs... no one wants them!

[Dave200]

M4cruiser said:

otolith said:

The vehicle type was dying. Everyone wanted crossovers.

Basically, a re-run of what the hatchback did to the three box saloon. The Fiesta was where the Orion found itself.

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

Do you really think car companies bet billions on being able to trick people into thinking they didn't need small hatchbacks any more? And how do you square that circle with countries like France where the two top selling cars last year were the Clio and 208?

[BricktopST205]

Dave200 said:

Do you really think car companies bet billions on being able to trick people into thinking they didn't need small hatchbacks any more? And how do you square that circle with countries like France where the two top selling cars last year were the Clio and 208?

Ford even admitted that they stopped producing Fiesta during chip shortage to focus on Puma because it had bigger margins........

[Olivera]

otolith said:

The vehicle type was dying. Everyone wanted crossovers.

Yep, but probably also not helped by the Mk7 Fiesta appearing like little more than a warmed over Mk6 from 10 years prior, nor the widespread ecoboom engine catastrophy. The rest of the Ford range dissapearing up it's own behind also didn't help the overall brand.

It always struck me as odd (or an act of self harm) how quickly Ford jettisoned the ST and RS brands. The former sold well, the latter had a lot of heritage and incredible residuals. It's akin to BMW quietly binning M.

[FiF]

Don't forget Mondeo also gone. Focus still listed but going 2025.

Currently under all cars their UK website lists Puma, Explorer, ( Focus ), Tourneo, Mustang.

[DonkeyApple]

BricktopST205 said:

otolith said:

Yep.

Fiesta was already dying on its arse when the Puma was introduced.

In 2019 pre COVID the Fiesta was only outsold by the polo and Clio in Europe and the Focus only outsold by the Golf.

Perhaps the vehicle type was dying or simply people were not being able to afford new cars anymore?

New car registrations tell you. Pretty much the same number of small cars being bought but spread across more brands so fewer total sales per brand. In addition to that from around 2015 the U.K. public joined the rest of Europe in simply choosing to move away from the Fiesta. So you can see it wasn't that the vehicle type was dying or that people weren't able to afford the cheapest models of cars in the U.K. but just that fewer and fewer were choosing to buy a Fiesta.

Looking at rankings doesn't give you the answer nor does a particular model being number 1 in one country actually mean it is selling enough to be worth continuing. You need to look at total sales and their trend. And in this case, 2010 mainland European Fiesta sales peaked and began falling away sharply and the U.K. followed 5 years later.

[DonkeyApple]

M4cruiser said:

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

No one is pushing or tricking. Consumers all want bigger and better and it is credit that facilitates that basic human demand/greed.

In simple terms and putting aside regulations, restrict credit and you shrink car sizes. Which is rather obvious when one looks at history and the size of the cheapest cars as well as looking at today and just how few larger cars could ever be acquired without credit. The only time size is trades away is for brand but only ever a small amount. One also has to consider that tiny cars are also not much cheaper to construct these days than small cars or even mid sized cars so the credit gap between sizes is pretty minuscule. No one is going to buy a tiny car if a small car is only a few £a more a month.

[FiF]

Re the tanking of Fiesta sales, was there some effect from the eco boost problems and subsequent jungle drums scare stories, ditto Focus?

Sorry off topic, will shut up now.

[raspy]

BricktopST205 said:

Ford even admitted that they stopped producing Fiesta during chip shortage to focus on Puma because it had bigger margins........

Profit making company desires to make more higher profit margins. Gosh, who could have foreseen that eh?

[raspy]

M4cruiser said:

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

"EVs are to blame, they seem to be BIG." Really? Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe have been on sales for ages, they are not exactly BIG, are they?

If nobody wants to purchase a bigger vehicle, they don't have to.

Don't forget that cars themselves have gotten larger over the years. Compare the size and weight of the original Fiesta/Golf with modern versions.

[Dave200]

raspy said:

M4cruiser said:

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

"EVs are to blame, they seem to be BIG." Really? Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe have been on sales for ages, they are not exactly BIG, are they?

If nobody wants to purchase a bigger vehicle, they don't have to.

Don't forget that cars themselves have gotten larger over the years. Compare the size and weight of the original Fiesta/Golf with modern versions.

It's such a load of old waffle that it's barely worth replying to. It's like the social media comments you read under any video about an EV, where old people regurgitate the same old uninformed tropes. I did this about 20 pages ago, but when you consider like-for-like EV Vs ice, there's really not that much in it in terms of size and weight. But that still won't stop the waffle. EVs have basically become the bogeyman for the hard of thinking.

[DonkeyApple]

Dave200 said:

It's such a load of old waffle that it's barely worth replying to. It's like the social media comments you read under any video about an EV, where old people regurgitate the same old uninformed tropes. I did this about 20 pages ago, but when you consider like-for-like EV Vs ice, there's really not that much in it in terms of size and weight. But that still won't stop the waffle. EVs have basically become the bogeyman for the hard of thinking.

Yeah, but, Congo kids.

[nickfrog]

M4cruiser said:

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

No they simply focused on the higher margin cars first.

[740EVTORQUES]

nickfrog said:

M4cruiser said:

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

No they simply focused on the higher margin cars first.

4.6m is. It that long particularly when that comes with a lot more interior/ boot space than a petrol car. My old BMW 6 series was longer than my EV6 and yet had laughably small rear seats, the EV6 can seat 5 plus dog/ luggage easily.

And what relevance is height especially when the COG is so low.

Remember that an EV6 is less polluting than a much smaller petrol hatchback and it doesn’t seem a bad idea at all. (KIAs independently validated LCA estimates around 20g CO2/km from the battery manufacture amortised plus at 4m/KWh from the UK grid mix you’re looking at a total of around 60g CO2 per mile.)

The problem with smaller EVs is that people will then complain about the range and so they don’t end up being that much lighter so you might as well have the practicality of the space.

[Glosphil]

FiF said:

M4cruiser said:

If you really want to see how/why China can make things so cheap then go there and look at their H&S on building sites, in factories, shops etc. You can probably guess, if you hadn't already.

If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.

Chinese came to Sweden having bought a motorway service area.

They started construction works, couldn't understand or maybe didn't want to understand why bamboo scaffolding wasn't permitted. Mardy pricks abandoned the project for ages.

Won't even start on instances of IPT and similar unacceptable behaviour.

They could source bamboo poles in Sweden?

[Dave200]

DonkeyApple said:

Dave200 said:

It's such a load of old waffle that it's barely worth replying to. It's like the social media comments you read under any video about an EV, where old people regurgitate the same old uninformed tropes. I did this about 20 pages ago, but when you consider like-for-like EV Vs ice, there's really not that much in it in terms of size and weight. But that still won't stop the waffle. EVs have basically become the bogeyman for the hard of thinking.

Yeah, but, Congo kids.

Yeah, who'd want a microwave when you can have an oven? Right? Soulless milkfloats.

[Dave200]

740EVTORQUES said:

nickfrog said:

M4cruiser said:

As part of this I feel we are being pushed / tricked into larger and larger cars.
A few years ago the total sales of Fiesta/Corsa/Polo/Clio was a huge slice of the overall sales.
EVs are partly to blame, they seem to be BIG. Perhaps because of batteries.
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.

No they simply focused on the higher margin cars first.

4.6m is. It that long particularly when that comes with a lot more interior/ boot space than a petrol car. My old BMW 6 series was longer than my EV6 and yet had laughably small rear seats, the EV6 can seat 5 plus dog/ luggage easily.

And what relevance is height especially when the COG is so low.

Remember that an EV6 is less polluting than a much smaller petrol hatchback and it doesn’t seem a bad idea at all. (KIAs independently validated LCA estimates around 20g CO2/km from the battery manufacture amortised plus at 4m/KWh from the UK grid mix you’re looking at a total of around 60g CO2 per mile.)

The problem with smaller EVs is that people will then complain about the range and so they don’t end up being that much lighter so you might as well have the practicality of the space.

4.6m is coincidentally the exact same size as the new Discovery Sport, a mid-size SUV that will seat 5 plus dog/luggage easily.

The EV6 weighs about 2 tonnes. You'll never believe how much the Discovery Sport weighs. But that still won't stop the bogeyman wibbling.

[GeniusOfLove]

Glosphil said:

FiF said:

M4cruiser said:

If you really want to see how/why China can make things so cheap then go there and look at their H&S on building sites, in factories, shops etc. You can probably guess, if you hadn't already.

If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.

Chinese came to Sweden having bought a motorway service area.

They started construction works, couldn't understand or maybe didn't want to understand why bamboo scaffolding wasn't permitted. Mardy pricks abandoned the project for ages.

Won't even start on instances of IPT and similar unacceptable behaviour.

They could source bamboo poles in Sweden?

That bamboo story comes from the same place as the "THEY TEACH KIDS THERE ARE 57 GENDERS" nonsense; the imagination of a fool.



The people who built this might, perhaps, know as much about scaffolding as the country that can't build a single high speed railway. They might not care if it's safe or not, but I am quite sure they know bamboo isn't the material of choice.

Edited by GeniusOfLove on Thursday 16th May 10:26

[GT9]

M4cruiser said:

I feel we are being tricked into larger cars

Some advice, and it's free.
Step away from the keyboard when you feel these urges.

Edited by GT9 on Thursday 16th May 10:48

[IanJ9375]

DonkeyApple said:

Yeah, but, Congo kids.

👍

I've noticed that the same group of people will mention the mining argument "Congo kids" but at the same time seem to want anyone on a small boat to drown if it's heading towards the white cliffs.


That would be some inner conflict if not for the Dunning-Kruger doing it's thing lol

[confused_buyer]

There is clearly healthy demand for smaller cars with manufacturers doing well with the 208, Corsa, C3, A1, Clio, i10, Yaris, Polo and even geriatrics like the 500.

It just seems the Fiesta fell out of favour. Remarkable when you think how ubiquitous previous models were - not just in the UK - but in places like Spain and Germany.

I'm not sure what Ford's future holds in Europe. They seem to have fewer and fewer models and little new coming through apart from some expensive EVs based on VWs.

I spend a lot of time working in the motor trade and to be honest I can't really remember what the latest Fiesta really looked like but I can remember all the others going back to a Mk 1.