Has my approved Rolls Royce been “clocked”? Please help

[hotwheels23]

wiliferus said:

Driver101 said:

Had the name from when I sent off retention cert for private plate it was on original log book
How do you know who the previous owner was? The V5 doesn't name the previous owner anymore and I thought the dealer had to remove all paperwork that included personal data?

It only takes one bill in the SH to expose that. My last purchase came with a folder of paperwork for services, parts, tyres etc. Most of them had the customers name and address at the top.

[hotwheels23]

Well guess what, one of the companies owned by previous owner.........

[hotwheels23]

Julian Thompson said:

Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.

BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.

These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).

As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.

There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.

Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.

So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.

So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.

Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42

I really need to find someone who can hook my car up to one of these ASAP,

[hotwheels23]

I’ve searched the original registration number but nothing coming up, may have had a private plate? Is there any way of finding out?? By the way feeling sick to my stomach right now but if with everybody’s help and support on here we can get solid proof I will take it to the very top and it will be made very very public, thanks

[hotwheels23]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I think all the sleuthing in the world won’t tell you much, you need to get it hooked up to the bmw diagnostics machine and interrogate the software.

OP, where abouts in the country are you?

Surrey

[hotwheels23]

AW111 said:

Rolls Royce said:

Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.

I don't see how Rolls can wash thier hands of this.
Did they provide a "Provenance" certificate or similar?

Not an actual certicate but it’s all over their website and I was directed to their Dealer from that, they are not disputing it was sold to me as a provenance car the loophole appears to be that now I have a problem they say my contract is with Manchester who have been reluctant to acknowledge the issue or answer my concerns in writing,

[hotwheels23]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

hotwheels23 said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I think all the sleuthing in the world won’t tell you much, you need to get it hooked up to the bmw diagnostics machine and interrogate the software.

OP, where abouts in the country are you?

Surrey

I only ask as I know a garage outside the dealer network that can do the job (they helped me with one of my cars years ago that a previous owner had tampered with) but they are about as far north as you can get. I'm sure there are a multitude of people in Surrey that can help.

If I can’t find anywhere closer I would go to the outer Hebrides to get to the bottom of this.......

[hotwheels23]

cheddar said:

Having read it, it appears that Rolls Royce have broken EVERY promise in their 'Pre Owned Benefits' literature.

This whole thing reeks of lies and mileage correction and the dealer knows it, hence the silent treatment.
I hope, as previously mentioned, that you manage to discover the true mileage and take these people to task.

Forget the 'I sold two cats at a loss' angle, that was down to you.
Concentrate on confirming the true mileage (looks more like 50/60k to me) and use reputable representatives to aid you.

I could perhaps understand this sort of behaviour from a back street Arthur Daley but how can a manufacturer that’s name alone is used as a benchmark for quality make claims like this and then say my contract is with a 3rd party?? I thought I was buying from Rolls Royce? Can you actually buy from them directly or are even new car purchases subject to the same problem I have?

Edited by hotwheels23 on Sunday 20th September 08:42

[hotwheels23]

ALawson said:

I expect this thread will go the way of the M5 warranty claim one, maybe worth pointing RR to this via twitter and let them sort this out now before it gets worse. Which it appears it will.

OP have you run the vcheck yet?

Yes it passed, previous owner had it 2 years 5 months, nothing unusual showed up but now I do have the private registration it was on so I will do more searching,

[hotwheels23]

S100HP said:

hotwheels23 said:

Yes it passed, previous owner had it 2 years 5 months, nothing unusual showed up but now I do have the private registration it was on so I will do more searching,

What was the previous reg? We might be able to help find info.

Don’t want to publish that or the vin yet until I have more solid proof if as we all suspect the mileage is incorrect I don’t want to prejudice any court action. I need to get it hooked up to the bmw system ASAP if that will work, at the moment all I have is the statement from Dekra the independent experts which is,

“It is in my opinion that the reported damage present to this prestige vehicle is unusual for the age and recorded mileage.“

[hotwheels23]

Lord.Vader said:

Post the registrations on here? On previous similar threads people have worked wonders with their (I assume) amateur internet sleuthing.

If it goes legal which I think it will would posting reg number on here be slanderous if I can’t support my case

[hotwheels23]

mstrbkr said:

hotwheels23 said:

Yes it passed, previous owner had it 2 years 5 months, nothing unusual showed up but now I do have the private registration it was on so I will do more searching,

Just to confirm, you’ve done an actual vcheck? I suppose it is good news it’s passed that, but at this point you almost want to find your smoking gun don’t you.

Yes that’s exactly what I’m looking for!!!

[hotwheels23]

mstrbkr said:

hotwheels23 said:

Yes it passed, previous owner had it 2 years 5 months, nothing unusual showed up but now I do have the private registration it was on so I will do more searching,

Just to confirm, you’ve done an actual vcheck? I suppose it is good news it’s passed that, but at this point you almost want to find your smoking gun don’t you.

Yes that’s exactly what I’m looking for!!!

[hotwheels23]

Trevor555 said:

Have you contacted the RR dealer local to the previous keeper?

There's a good chance it went in there for a warranty repair at one point.

Might be worth them checking the recorded mileages if they saw it.

Their the ones selling it!!!! After they sold it it wasn’t seen for 2 years including missing its service, but did have new tyres at some point....... so didn’t look after car didn’t have the free service but did put tyres on when they may not have been needed.......

[hotwheels23]

Another thing that now makes sense, the flying lady(spirit of ecstasy) flew off!!!! The bmw tech who came out hadn’t seen it before but if it’s unusual mileage then that may have been up and down more times than a .... .....!!!

Edited by hotwheels23 on Sunday 20th September 12:28

[hotwheels23]

Knoxville2410 said:

I really hope you get this sorted OP, sounds like an absolute nightmare that you shouldn't have to endure.

I use Darren Wood BMW specialist in Manchester who has access to all of BMW's systems. Maybe you could find a specialist local to you who can hook the car up.

If you do decide to post the reg, I'll happily do some research for you. I've done a lot of online investigating - become the go to guy in my company for it too!

Tried to pm you but it’s not accepting mail can you pm me with your details

[hotwheels23]

ajap1979 said:

At this point I’d be writing to both RR and the dealer who sold the car, detailing everything you know, everything you suspect, including all the circumstantial evidence (previous owners business interests), and ask for their assistance. Make it clear that if they don’t help you’ll hang them out to dry. Given all that had been established on this short thread there is no way they won’t come to the same conclusion as everyone here.

It’s gone on for months, I wrote 2 explicit emails to Manchester and they would not acknowledge my concerns in writing? They have just tried to run the clock down hoping I will run out of steam I spoke to RR customer relations who say that
I will need to speak to the dealer as they are my contractual partner. their role in this is to support them where they can and to look after me which they have promised to do, until this is resolved however Manchester won’t reply in writing as I said I want a paper trail and RR say I have no direct contract with them, even though RR put out the provenance statement

[hotwheels23]

ajap1979 said:

At this point I’d be writing to both RR and the dealer who sold the car, detailing everything you know, everything you suspect, including all the circumstantial evidence (previous owners business interests), and ask for their assistance. Make it clear that if they don’t help you’ll hang them out to dry. Given all that had been established on this short thread there is no way they won’t come to the same conclusion as everyone here.

It’s gone on for months, I wrote 2 explicit emails to Manchester and they would not acknowledge my concerns in writing? They have just tried to run the clock down hoping I will run out of steam I spoke to RR customer relations who say that
I will need to speak to the dealer as they are my contractual partner. their role in this is to support them where they can and to look after me which they have promised to do, until this is resolved however Manchester won’t reply in writing as I said I want a paper trail and RR say I have no direct contract with them, even though RR put out the provenance statement

[hotwheels23]

Ar63 said:

Have you tried contacting any senior RR employees? Search "rolls royce cars "customer" linkedin" - brings up a bunch of results. Try also CEO email website, you can figure out the email address format they use and go from there. I'm assuming you spoke to frontline staff at RR, take it further up the chain now.

Have mailed ceo on Saturday let’s hope he can look at the bigger picture and step in.

[hotwheels23]

Trevor555 said:

Blue62 said:

hotwheels23 said:

It’s gone on for months, I wrote 2 explicit emails to Manchester and they would not acknowledge my concerns in writing? They have just tried to run the clock down hoping I will run out of steam I spoke to RR customer relations who say that
I will need to speak to the dealer as they are my contractual partner. their role in this is to support them where they can and to look after me which they have promised to do, until this is resolved however Manchester won’t reply in writing as I said I want a paper trail and RR say I have no direct contract with them, even though RR put out the provenance statement

Surely you should be sending letters by recorded delivery at this stage, I wouldn’t rely on emails they can claim it’s gone to spam! If I were you I would get a solicitor to pen a strongly worded letter, threatening action and outlining the steps you are taking to prove that the car has been clocked. They know that it’s a criminal offence to sell a clocked car and given who they are it will attract unwanted publicity.

They'll just keep ignoring you until you have the proof that it's been clocked.

This is why OP's getting the silent treatment.

The dealer will be hoping the OP can't get the proof.

I agree however even without concrete proof it still falls very short of the provenance statement, for an independent engineer to say “ It is in my opinion that the reported damage present to this prestige vehicle is unusual for the age and recorded mileage.” Added to the fact the first service was missed and also this list of issues

The engineers list,

My Observations as follows -
Vehicle condition -
O/S/F seat - Seatback leather is splitting.
O/S/F window trim - Insecure.
O/S dash clock trim - Insecure.
Centre upper dash leather - Split/damaged. O/S/R seat base - Leather is splitting.
N/S/R lower wing - Stone chips present. O/S/R lower wing - Stone chips present. O/S/R bumper corner - Scratched.
Centre front cup holder cover - Multiple chips.
Conclusion / Opinion:
In the engineer's opinion, based on evidence written, reported and observed during this assessment of the reported vehicle faults, the following can be concluded:
I can confirm the O/S/F seatback leather is splitting.
I can confirm the O/S/F window trim is insecure.
I can confirm the O/S dash clock trim is insecure.
I can confirm the centre upper dash leather is split/damaged. I can confirm the O/S/R seat base leather is splitting.
I can confirm the N/S/R lower wing has stone chips present.
I can confirm the O/S/R lower wing has stone chips present.
I can confirm the O/S/R bumper corner is scratched.
I can confirm the centre front cup holder cover has multiple chips present.
I can confirm that all of the above-listed damage /faults were present during today inspection.
It is in my opinion that the reported damage present to this prestige vehicle is unusual for the age and recorded mileage.