How the hell do people afford cars these days?
Discussion
Ken_Code said:
James_33 said:
Why does it make even less sense? Realistically speaking how many average Joe's have 19k laying about? And even more so on cars of higher value, sure some people will but for the majority they haven't.
I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
The issue is that while you may have three months income in an easy-access account and / or very good redundancy insurance many who do what you have don’t, and will set lease payments that leave them with very little spare each month.I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
I've just purchased a car on PCP on a 0% finance deal, and as someone with a young family we wanted something relatively new (3 years or less) we set an agreed limit on what we wanted to pay with an extended warranty, we are happy with the contract agreement, the company gets a sale, the customer is happy, whats the issue?
Advising people that this is risky may aggravate you, but may also make someone else think twice about why they are entering into a multi-year commitment that could turn into a disaster if they lose their job.
I think everyone should think twice about making a substantial commitment to something regardless of what that is, I just don't understand why people concern themselves over how someone buys/rents a car, I make no assumptions on what would happen if whoever lost their job would be able to afford it anymore, and if they did then surely that's for them to deal with and not others?
James_33 said:
It doesn't aggrevate me at all, life is full of risks as we all know, who's to say taking on a multi year commitment of a mortgage for the next 25 years or so isn't all going to fall flat on its face if one or both of you end up out of a job either through redundancy/medically/breakup/divorce and so on.
I think everyone should think twice about making a substantial commitment to something regardless of what that is, I just don't understand why people concern themselves over how someone buys/rents a car, I make no assumptions on what would happen if whoever lost their job would be able to afford it anymore, and if they did then surely that's for them to deal with and not others?
It’s a discussion forum, the entire point of it is to discuss things like this.I think everyone should think twice about making a substantial commitment to something regardless of what that is, I just don't understand why people concern themselves over how someone buys/rents a car, I make no assumptions on what would happen if whoever lost their job would be able to afford it anymore, and if they did then surely that's for them to deal with and not others?
James_33 said:
I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
Personally I have no concern with whatever means someone chooses to get a car (as long as it is legal). I would just prefer they didn't try to justify it by trotting out the tired old trope of 'older' cars being unreliable. Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
biggbn said:
What does WBAC price have to do with anything? Is that the metric you're gonna use for used value?
It's the easiest and most accurate way to measure what a car is worth worth should you need to dispose of it quickly and with reduced hassle? MightyBadger said:
Using WBAC as vehicle evaluations 
What would you use out of interest? What a car is advertised for on Autotrader only tells you what people are asking for, not what it's actually worth. It could sit there for months + eventually sell for considerably less than the advertised price?
Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 8th May 12:19
Ken_Code said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
I wonder if the divergent views on reliability here are caused by some people buying older "sensible" cars and some older "interesting" cars. It may well be that spending £8k on a 10 year old cooking-spec Golf is indeed the way to go for affordable, reliable motoring. But Jesus Christ, as a car enthusiast I'd find that pretty soul-destroying.
Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Probably a bit less, I think I could sell it for about £5,000 more than I paid for it.Good to know that a McLaren is an option instead, though. Who'd have thought that one could be had for the same cost as a leased Citroen.
Of course, it does come with some risk, but in quite a few years of buying fun cars I’ve never had a huge bill.
I forgot to mention my Yaris. Not cheap two years ago at £34,000, but it looks as though it’s worth similar to that now.
This run of apparently good luck and cheap motoring may be about to come to an abrupt halt as I’ve stepped up in cost for a convertible, buying at the worst time of year, but we’ll see.
Could have owned a Mclaren F1 for 30 years and be up millions.
Must do better.
SWoll said:
biggbn said:
What does WBAC price have to do with anything? Is that the metric you're gonna use for used value?
It's the easiest and most accurate way to measure what a car is worth worth should you need to dispose of it quickly and with reduced hassle? Om said:
Personally I have no concern with whatever means someone chooses to get a car (as long as it is legal). I would just prefer they didn't try to justify it by trotting out the tired old trope of 'older' cars being unreliable.
Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
Older cars are more likely to be unreliable than new ones. I don't imagine that's an alien concept to anyone here?Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
Lot's of people rely on their cars every day, so if they can afford to keep a newer model that is under warranty for the peace of mind that offers then good luck to them. Perfectly valid reasoning.
biggbn said:
What does WBAC price have to do with anything? Is that the metric you're gonna use for used value?
I used WBAC as rough, easily accessible measure of trade in value. The point being that for many people buying a 3/4 year old car, perhaps approved used, they will trade it in, so the depreciation cost is the difference between the retail price paid and the trade-in (or WBAC) price a few years later. My impression is that the gap between trade prices and retail prices has increased in recent years.I get the "WBAC is not the whole market" line, but my understanding is that dealer's trade offers are likely to be in the same ballpark and there are endless posts elsewhere on PH about how selling a car privately, particularly above £10k can be challenging.
Sub-£5k, I would agree that WBAC is largely irrelevant as the offer will be silly and you really ought to sell privately.
Ken_Code said:
Not that anyone thinking of leasing a base model Citroën will care, but the cost is enough to cover owning far more special cars.
My McLaren has not depreciated at all in the time I owned it. My R8 appreciated. My Range Rover has depreciated about £8,000 in four years, my brand new SL63 dropped £3k in two years and brand new 911 GTS dropped by the same.
None of them have had massive repair bills or had to be off the road.
I understand the peace of mind that will come with leasing, but not those arguing that it makes financial sense relative to buying something four years old.
It’s good to know I could afford to run an R8. My McLaren has not depreciated at all in the time I owned it. My R8 appreciated. My Range Rover has depreciated about £8,000 in four years, my brand new SL63 dropped £3k in two years and brand new 911 GTS dropped by the same.
None of them have had massive repair bills or had to be off the road.
I understand the peace of mind that will come with leasing, but not those arguing that it makes financial sense relative to buying something four years old.
I just need to hold of on the Citroen for 10 years to get the cash together for the entry fee
If my (old) car goes pop tomorrow I'd have no option but to find the cheapest supermini available on HP and I suspect many are in a similar boat. I've had my 2014 mini for five years, it's mine now, but I'll keep it till it goes pop or my spider senses tell me it's about to go pop. Never done this before, used to run old cheap cars exclusively but my thinking with the mini is I'm it's second owner, I've driven it 75k miles, I know how it's been looked after and anything new (preowned) would be a risk whilst the wee car keeps on trucking...looking for 200k miles!
Ken_Code said:
SWoll said:
Older cars are more likely to be unreliable than new ones. I don't imagine that's an alien concept to anyone here?
Citation needed.I wonder why warranty companies charge more to cover a car the older/higher mileage it gets? Must just be a scam and nothing to do with risk I imagine..
SWoll said:
Om said:
Personally I have no concern with whatever means someone chooses to get a car (as long as it is legal). I would just prefer they didn't try to justify it by trotting out the tired old trope of 'older' cars being unreliable.
Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
Older cars are more likely to be unreliable than new ones. I don't imagine that's an alien concept to anyone here?Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
Lot's of people rely on their cars every day, so if they can afford to keep a newer model that is under warranty for the peace of mind that offers then good luck to them. Perfectly valid reasoning.
SWoll said:
New cars have far less issues on average than 3+ year old used cars. And if new cars do go wrong those issues get fixed under warranty for free which isn't always the case with used cars obviously unless you buy approved.
Funnily enough in my personal experience used BMW's are the worst of the lot. We've had 3 over the years adding up to a total ownership term of around 8 years , and all of them had significant and expensive to resolve issues at < 5 years old. Fortunately all were AUC bought so didn't cost me a penny, just a lot of hassle.
E46 330i - 3 years old, issues with power loss and dropping into limp home mode after fueling. Electrical gremlin which required a new engine harness to eventually resolve after multiple visits to the dealer.
E60 530D - 4 years old. Needed a new gearbox after it chewed itself up due to an ATF leak.
F10 530i - 3 years old. Misfire requiring replacement of coil packs, injectors and a ruined catalytic converter due to overfueling.
We've had plenty of new cars over the years, both private and company, and never had any problems with them.
I would say you have been extremely unlucky there, I would bet good money that the statistics for someone who has had three <4 year old cars and had three major issues costing thousands must be incredibly small.Funnily enough in my personal experience used BMW's are the worst of the lot. We've had 3 over the years adding up to a total ownership term of around 8 years , and all of them had significant and expensive to resolve issues at < 5 years old. Fortunately all were AUC bought so didn't cost me a penny, just a lot of hassle.
E46 330i - 3 years old, issues with power loss and dropping into limp home mode after fueling. Electrical gremlin which required a new engine harness to eventually resolve after multiple visits to the dealer.
E60 530D - 4 years old. Needed a new gearbox after it chewed itself up due to an ATF leak.
F10 530i - 3 years old. Misfire requiring replacement of coil packs, injectors and a ruined catalytic converter due to overfueling.
We've had plenty of new cars over the years, both private and company, and never had any problems with them.
I am a car person, have had 6 BMWs over the years (among lots of other brands) and have never had a single major issue. Perhaps that makes me lucky but there is absolutely no way the majority of used car owners are likely to have had similar experiences to you multiple times over on different used cars.
We had a Clubman Cooper S on a PCP some years back, cost me £16400 over 4 years in deprecation + interest alone as I had to give the car back. I could have bought a 4 year old version of the same car and I am utterly convinced it would have not even cost half of that in 4 years of ownership, even accounting for maintenance.
Om said:
James_33 said:
I don't get what people's concern is over someone else spending their own money on something they want to buy for themselves, more so on PCP as they know what the payments will be and for the most part will be handing them back at the end of the term for something else, so if they are happy with the payments then surely let them crack on with it.
Personally I have no concern with whatever means someone chooses to get a car (as long as it is legal). I would just prefer they didn't try to justify it by trotting out the tired old trope of 'older' cars being unreliable. Be honest. If they did it because they wanted the latest model, badge, something faster, more luxurious, then fine. Saying they needed a new car because the old one was out of warranty and was going to start throwing up big bills is third rate man-maths.
Ken_Code said:
SWoll said:
Older cars are more likely to be unreliable than new ones. I don't imagine that's an alien concept to anyone here?
Citation needed.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351582555...
Ken_Code said:
Not that anyone thinking of leasing a base model Citroën will care, but the cost is enough to cover owning far more special cars.
My McLaren has not depreciated at all in the time I owned it. My R8 appreciated. My Range Rover has depreciated about £8,000 in four years, my brand new SL63 dropped £3k in two years and brand new 911 GTS dropped by the same.
None of them have had massive repair bills or had to be off the road.
I understand the peace of mind that will come with leasing, but not those arguing that it makes financial sense relative to buying something four years old.
Yes, but you have benefited from used car appreciation in recent years, which has now come to an end. Until Covid McLarens had been depreciating heavily.My McLaren has not depreciated at all in the time I owned it. My R8 appreciated. My Range Rover has depreciated about £8,000 in four years, my brand new SL63 dropped £3k in two years and brand new 911 GTS dropped by the same.
None of them have had massive repair bills or had to be off the road.
I understand the peace of mind that will come with leasing, but not those arguing that it makes financial sense relative to buying something four years old.
Your Emira has lost a good £20k in under a year.
SWoll said:
You're kidding surely? The concept of complex mechanical/electrical things becoming less reliable the older and more used they are is a surprise to you?
I wonder why warranty companies charge more to cover a car the older/higher mileage it gets? Must just be a scam and nothing to do with risk I imagine..
A fair number of brand new cars have issues. My Emura made it 50 miles before the power steering failed and another 50 before the windscreen wiper did.I wonder why warranty companies charge more to cover a car the older/higher mileage it gets? Must just be a scam and nothing to do with risk I imagine..
Cars a few years old have likely had any niggles sorted and so we’ll be more reliable than one straight from the factory.
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