Discussion
CG2020UK said:
Insurance totally agree. I’m young so haven’t noticed a different but it is what it is and influences older drivers.
The M2 can run in 95ron as well, sticker in the fuel cap says so and unfortunately my local track hasn’t got a fuel pump with super nearby so need to run 95ron towards the end of the day and honestly I can’t tell a difference. I’m sure everyone would run super (97) anyhow on these cars (I run 99).
Average U.K. miles of 600 a month running super at 1.45L the difference between 22mpg and 27mpg is £33 a month. You can certainly get 28-30mpg in the M2 with DCT if you half sensible.
Agreed RE: all of that. I believe most if not all M2 owners would run on Super Unleaded, whereas i dont think thats the case with M140is. Again, its something to note and factor in. The M2 can run in 95ron as well, sticker in the fuel cap says so and unfortunately my local track hasn’t got a fuel pump with super nearby so need to run 95ron towards the end of the day and honestly I can’t tell a difference. I’m sure everyone would run super (97) anyhow on these cars (I run 99).
Average U.K. miles of 600 a month running super at 1.45L the difference between 22mpg and 27mpg is £33 a month. You can certainly get 28-30mpg in the M2 with DCT if you half sensible.
Even taking your nominal 600 miles a month, we're now at £33 a month extra just for fuel, whereas you were reckoning £25 a month all in.
CG2020UK said:
To run MPS4S I think you need the upgraded 19s to get a fair comparison as don’t appear to come in 18s (happy to be corrected using black circles). Black circles shows £82 between the 245/30 R19 and 265/35 R19 for each tyre at the rear. Fronts are the same size with the19inches. If you need new rear tyres a year you’re looking £8 a month extra tucked away.
Why would you think a fair comparison is if both cars are priced as running 19s, when the M140i runs 18s?
Michelin and thus MPS4S is a typical tyre people run on an M2. Sticking with Michelin on the M140i, a MPS5 is £147 fitted. The cheapest Michelin to run on an M2 comes out at £285 fitted and balanced. Both of those prices are taken from Blackcircles.
So 2 Michelin rears on an M140i would cost you £290, two Michelin rears on an M2 will cost you £570.
At your nominal one set of rears a year example, thats £23 a month.
Add in a set of fronts every 2 years and you're adding probably +£12 a month there. So theres +£35 a month.
Thats on top of the +£33 a month for fuel, so we're now at £68 a month, compared to your original £25 a month.
CG2020UK said:
I just got full OEM front discs £450 front and £390 rear from Lloyd Colne BMW. Pads, labour and fluids will be identical. Maybe save £200-300 on discs but then most people will get at 24 months (mine have last 5 years on the M2) out of them so £10-12 a month running difference.
Yup. I take your point RE: the pads but its still a £600 outlay for front discs and pads front and £550 outlay for rear discs and pads. On an M2 its generally accepted to go at least with OEM. On an M140i you might get away with cheaper aftermarket brands.You may well have got away with not needing discs and pads for 5 years, but the price point and year of car the O/P is looking at is right in the fun zone for maintenance costs like this. Its very worth bearing in mind.
Another one - which you missed - is the recommended replacement of gearbox oil at circa 50K miles. Again, the budget and year of car puts the OP right in to that fun zone.
It would be quite easy to buy an OG M2 and be hit with a bill for discs and pads and gearbox oil change within the year. Theres £1100+ gone.
CG2020UK said:
The beauty of the OG M2 is its simplicity and running costs. It’s really not that bad at all. Now there is a noticeable difference in service costs and extended warranty going the M2 Comp or the other M cars but the N55 avoids it.
Agreed RE: its certainly at the lower end of M running costs, but its at very least worth "being aware of" the sort of running costs you're looking at with these cars.I've no idea what the O/P drives currently but i know quite a few people would have a canary when suddenly expected to pay out £1100 for a set of tyres or £600 for front discs and pads. Just worth being aware of.
These cars need well maintained and done so to a high standard.
I would rather people go in to that knowing the bills they may be going to get over the next year or two than not.
CG2020UK said:
The posted M2 manual looks a brilliant buy. The owner has actually posted on the M2 buy and sell forum on Facebook if the poster wanted to search to reach out for more info.
Yes it absolutely does. Lovely car. Sensibly priced and looks to have been well maintained. On that we can agree 
Deep Thought said:
CG2020UK said:
Insurance totally agree. I’m young so haven’t noticed a different but it is what it is and influences older drivers.
The M2 can run in 95ron as well, sticker in the fuel cap says so and unfortunately my local track hasn’t got a fuel pump with super nearby so need to run 95ron towards the end of the day and honestly I can’t tell a difference. I’m sure everyone would run super (97) anyhow on these cars (I run 99).
Average U.K. miles of 600 a month running super at 1.45L the difference between 22mpg and 27mpg is £33 a month. You can certainly get 28-30mpg in the M2 with DCT if you half sensible.
Agreed RE: all of that. I believe most if not all M2 owners would run on Super Unleaded, whereas i dont think thats the case with M140is. Again, its something to note and factor in. The M2 can run in 95ron as well, sticker in the fuel cap says so and unfortunately my local track hasn’t got a fuel pump with super nearby so need to run 95ron towards the end of the day and honestly I can’t tell a difference. I’m sure everyone would run super (97) anyhow on these cars (I run 99).
Average U.K. miles of 600 a month running super at 1.45L the difference between 22mpg and 27mpg is £33 a month. You can certainly get 28-30mpg in the M2 with DCT if you half sensible.
Even taking your nominal 600 miles a month, we're now at £33 a month extra just for fuel, whereas you were reckoning £25 a month all in.
CG2020UK said:
To run MPS4S I think you need the upgraded 19s to get a fair comparison as don’t appear to come in 18s (happy to be corrected using black circles). Black circles shows £82 between the 245/30 R19 and 265/35 R19 for each tyre at the rear. Fronts are the same size with the19inches. If you need new rear tyres a year you’re looking £8 a month extra tucked away.
Why would you think a fair comparison is if both cars are priced as running 19s, when the M140i runs 18s?
Michelin and thus MPS4S is a typical tyre people run on an M2. Sticking with Michelin on the M140i, a MPS5 is £147 fitted. The cheapest Michelin to run on an M2 comes out at £285 fitted and balanced. Both of those prices are taken from Blackcircles.
So 2 Michelin rears on an M140i would cost you £290, two Michelin rears on an M2 will cost you £570.
At your nominal one set of rears a year example, thats £23 a month.
Add in a set of fronts every 2 years and you're adding probably +£12 a month there. So theres +£35 a month.
Thats on top of the +£33 a month for fuel, so we're now at £68 a month, compared to your original £25 a month.
CG2020UK said:
I just got full OEM front discs £450 front and £390 rear from Lloyd Colne BMW. Pads, labour and fluids will be identical. Maybe save £200-300 on discs but then most people will get at 24 months (mine have last 5 years on the M2) out of them so £10-12 a month running difference.
Yup. I take your point RE: the pads but its still a £600 outlay for front discs and pads front and £550 outlay for rear discs and pads. On an M2 its generally accepted to go at least with OEM. On an M140i you might get away with cheaper aftermarket brands.You may well have got away with not needing discs and pads for 5 years, but the price point and year of car the O/P is looking at is right in the fun zone for maintenance costs like this. Its very worth bearing in mind.
Another one - which you missed - is the recommended replacement of gearbox oil at circa 50K miles. Again, the budget and year of car puts the OP right in to that fun zone.
It would be quite easy to buy an OG M2 and be hit with a bill for discs and pads and gearbox oil change within the year. Theres £1100+ gone.
CG2020UK said:
The beauty of the OG M2 is its simplicity and running costs. It’s really not that bad at all. Now there is a noticeable difference in service costs and extended warranty going the M2 Comp or the other M cars but the N55 avoids it.
Agreed RE: its certainly at the lower end of M running costs, but its at very least worth "being aware of" the sort of running costs you're looking at with these cars.I've no idea what the O/P drives currently but i know quite a few people would have a canary when suddenly expected to pay out £1100 for a set of tyres or £600 for front discs and pads. Just worth being aware of.
These cars need well maintained and done so to a high standard.
I would rather people go in to that knowing the bills they may be going to get over the next year or two than not.
CG2020UK said:
The posted M2 manual looks a brilliant buy. The owner has actually posted on the M2 buy and sell forum on Facebook if the poster wanted to search to reach out for more info.
Yes it absolutely does. Lovely car. Sensibly priced and looks to have been well maintained. On that we can agree Tyres is hard because if you are buying Pilot Sport 5 you are more on the daily driver side of things and not the same level as the MPS4S so will be expecting way longer out of these tyres than what I’d put on an M2. The M2 doesn’t have a comparative tyre from Michelin so need to assume an M140i driver into driving would upgrade their wheels to get a comparative tyre or the M2 can drop down and go Pirelli or Continental and lower the price to match. Also stretch out tyre lifespan on Pilot Sport 5as wouldn’t expect them to be subjected to the same abuses as PS4S or Cup 2. PS4S you can get 4-5years or 30k miles out of it you potter about like.
Without it going to silly levels of OEM vs nom OEM it’s going to be all pretty similar across the board if we work on the assumption of OEM.
Id say he is a lot more likely to buy an M140i that’s has been raked within an inch of its life with pennies spent on maintenance while trying to get instagram likes than he is to find an unloved M2.
Likewise he could buy a 2 year old M140i that needs new discs, pads, service and tyres in 3 months or a cared for M2 that is sorted for 4 years. No way of knowing except to buy on condition. However the actual running costs just aren’t that different and certainly no more than any hot hatch. It’s a BMW not a Ferrari as I like to remind people.
Probably an agree to disagree job this one
Edited by CG2020UK on Wednesday 21st February 14:15
said:
Think it’s fair to say fuel is massively behaviour here. My daily driving economy I’m getting 27-30mpg for example.
Tyres is hard because if you are buying Pilot Sport 5 you are more on the daily driver side of things and not the same level as the MPS4S so will be expecting way longer out of these tyres than what I’d put on an M2. The M2 doesn’t have a comparative tyre from Michelin so need to assume an M140i driver into driving would upgrade their wheels to get a comparative tyre or the M2 can drop down and go Pirelli or Continental and lower the price to match. Also stretch out tyre lifespan on Pilot Sport 5as wouldn’t expect them to be subjected to the same abuses as PS4S or Cup 2. PS4S you can get 4-5years or 30k miles out of it you potter about like.
Without it going to silly levels of OEM vs nom OEM it’s going to be all pretty similar across the board if we work on the assumption of OEM.
Id say he is a lot more likely to buy an M140i that’s has been raked within an inch of its life with pennies spent on maintenance while trying to get instagram likes than he is to find an unloved M2.
Likewise he could buy a 2 year old M140i that needs new discs, pads, service and tyres in 3 months or a cared for M2 that is sorted for 4 years. No way of knowing except to buy on condition. However the actual running costs just aren’t that different and certainly no more than any hot hatch. It’s a BMW not a Ferrari as I like to remind people.
He's potentially proposing buying a 7 year old M car.Tyres is hard because if you are buying Pilot Sport 5 you are more on the daily driver side of things and not the same level as the MPS4S so will be expecting way longer out of these tyres than what I’d put on an M2. The M2 doesn’t have a comparative tyre from Michelin so need to assume an M140i driver into driving would upgrade their wheels to get a comparative tyre or the M2 can drop down and go Pirelli or Continental and lower the price to match. Also stretch out tyre lifespan on Pilot Sport 5as wouldn’t expect them to be subjected to the same abuses as PS4S or Cup 2. PS4S you can get 4-5years or 30k miles out of it you potter about like.
Without it going to silly levels of OEM vs nom OEM it’s going to be all pretty similar across the board if we work on the assumption of OEM.
Id say he is a lot more likely to buy an M140i that’s has been raked within an inch of its life with pennies spent on maintenance while trying to get instagram likes than he is to find an unloved M2.
Likewise he could buy a 2 year old M140i that needs new discs, pads, service and tyres in 3 months or a cared for M2 that is sorted for 4 years. No way of knowing except to buy on condition. However the actual running costs just aren’t that different and certainly no more than any hot hatch. It’s a BMW not a Ferrari as I like to remind people.
I've given the O/P my view of potential higher than they might expect costs for insurance, tyres, discs, DCT oil change, MPG, fuel type used and that there is more of an expectation come resale time of having used OEM parts than you might otherwise get away with on a non M BMW as things to be aware of.
If you're telling him not to worry and its all the same as an M140i, then we'll have to agree to disagree and lets leave it at that.
Difficult to argue that the consumables won't be significantly more expensive on a M2.
From memory servicing is quasi identical except that you also need a diff service on a M2, not frequent and cheap anyway. And I think the plugs involve even more labour.
This could all be offset by slower depreciation perhaps.
From memory servicing is quasi identical except that you also need a diff service on a M2, not frequent and cheap anyway. And I think the plugs involve even more labour.
This could all be offset by slower depreciation perhaps.
£500 for diff oil?
That’s 1p/mile in running costs at 50k mile interval, AND paying BMW silly rates.
Oil will be what? £70? And likely an easy DIY if you give yourself an afternoon.
I’d buy the M2, then splash some savings on BMW doing everything on a few tools.
If you’re buying a 50k+ miles model, the value isn’t going to be impacted too badly by non-BMW servicing appearing on some non-critical SH parts.
As long as there is clear records of it being done.
Well over half of the E46 M3s I see up for strong money, 6 years ago and even today, had patchy histories, never mind non-BMW ones.
Only reason to keep the BMW SH is the warranty but even that gets expensive vs just saving up a contingency fund.
That’s 1p/mile in running costs at 50k mile interval, AND paying BMW silly rates.
Oil will be what? £70? And likely an easy DIY if you give yourself an afternoon.
I’d buy the M2, then splash some savings on BMW doing everything on a few tools.
If you’re buying a 50k+ miles model, the value isn’t going to be impacted too badly by non-BMW servicing appearing on some non-critical SH parts.
As long as there is clear records of it being done.
Well over half of the E46 M3s I see up for strong money, 6 years ago and even today, had patchy histories, never mind non-BMW ones.
Only reason to keep the BMW SH is the warranty but even that gets expensive vs just saving up a contingency fund.
nickfrog said:
Diff oil on M2 is £100 every 6 years. No need to use BMW either if you want to save £20.
Warranty can be maintained without BMW servicing providing the indy has access to BMW service online portal, which all reputable indies have.
There's the DCT oil change. From memory it's around £500+ and recommended around 50k miles.Warranty can be maintained without BMW servicing providing the indy has access to BMW service online portal, which all reputable indies have.
I know yours was a manual, and the last car the OP posted was a manual, but his previous posts have been autos.
Mr Whippy said:
£500 for diff oil?
That’s 1p/mile in running costs at 50k mile interval, AND paying BMW silly rates.
Oil will be what? £70? And likely an easy DIY if you give yourself an afternoon.
I’d buy the M2, then splash some savings on BMW doing everything on a few tools.
If you’re buying a 50k+ miles model, the value isn’t going to be impacted too badly by non-BMW servicing appearing on some non-critical SH parts.
As long as there is clear records of it being done.
Well over half of the E46 M3s I see up for strong money, 6 years ago and even today, had patchy histories, never mind non-BMW ones.
Only reason to keep the BMW SH is the warranty but even that gets expensive vs just saving up a contingency fund.
Not £500 for diff oil change, the £500 i cited was (my recollection of) the cost of the DCT oil change.That’s 1p/mile in running costs at 50k mile interval, AND paying BMW silly rates.
Oil will be what? £70? And likely an easy DIY if you give yourself an afternoon.
I’d buy the M2, then splash some savings on BMW doing everything on a few tools.
If you’re buying a 50k+ miles model, the value isn’t going to be impacted too badly by non-BMW servicing appearing on some non-critical SH parts.
As long as there is clear records of it being done.
Well over half of the E46 M3s I see up for strong money, 6 years ago and even today, had patchy histories, never mind non-BMW ones.
Only reason to keep the BMW SH is the warranty but even that gets expensive vs just saving up a contingency fund.
No need for it to be serviced and maintained by BMW. A good indy is fine. Thats what i do with mine. The guy i use is an ex BMW technician.
It would be prudent to use OEM parts or OEM quality parts though. Whilst there's not such a problem with using third party parts on a non M BMW, M buyers tend to be quite particular on a cars history and parts used.
Edited by Deep Thought on Sunday 25th February 11:19
Deep Thought said:
Mr Whippy said:
£500 for diff oil?
That’s 1p/mile in running costs at 50k mile interval, AND paying BMW silly rates.
Oil will be what? £70? And likely an easy DIY if you give yourself an afternoon.
I’d buy the M2, then splash some savings on BMW doing everything on a few tools.
If you’re buying a 50k+ miles model, the value isn’t going to be impacted too badly by non-BMW servicing appearing on some non-critical SH parts.
As long as there is clear records of it being done.
Well over half of the E46 M3s I see up for strong money, 6 years ago and even today, had patchy histories, never mind non-BMW ones.
Only reason to keep the BMW SH is the warranty but even that gets expensive vs just saving up a contingency fund.
Not £500 for diff oil change, the £500 i cited was (my recollection of) the cost of the DCT oil change.That’s 1p/mile in running costs at 50k mile interval, AND paying BMW silly rates.
Oil will be what? £70? And likely an easy DIY if you give yourself an afternoon.
I’d buy the M2, then splash some savings on BMW doing everything on a few tools.
If you’re buying a 50k+ miles model, the value isn’t going to be impacted too badly by non-BMW servicing appearing on some non-critical SH parts.
As long as there is clear records of it being done.
Well over half of the E46 M3s I see up for strong money, 6 years ago and even today, had patchy histories, never mind non-BMW ones.
Only reason to keep the BMW SH is the warranty but even that gets expensive vs just saving up a contingency fund.
No need for it to be serviced and maintained by BMW. A good indy is fine. Thats what i do with mine. The guy i use is an ex BMW technician.
It would be prudent to use OEM parts or OEM quality parts though. Whilst there's not such a problem with using third party parts on a non M BMW, M buyers tend to be quite particular on a cars history and parts used.
Edited by Deep Thought on Sunday 25th February 11:19
I’ve kept my 335Xd all bmw and despite them buggering up my digital service record, they said they’d be happy to sell as AUC and it has the bmw warranty still.
And arguably it’s cost me sod all extra vs a good independent.
But the residual boost? Likely £500. So maybe what I’ve spent extra.
And on an M2? Likely a bit more. But by 8yrs it’ll be cost neutral. By 15 yrs no one will give a crap as it’ll be based on condition.
Mr Whippy said:
Yeah it’s all difficult wrt residuals etc short, medium and long term.
I’ve kept my 335Xd all bmw and despite them buggering up my digital service record, they said they’d be happy to sell as AUC and it has the bmw warranty still.
And arguably it’s cost me sod all extra vs a good independent.
But the residual boost? Likely £500. So maybe what I’ve spent extra.
And on an M2? Likely a bit more. But by 8yrs it’ll be cost neutral. By 15 yrs no one will give a crap as it’ll be based on condition.
Indeed. Mine has never saw the inside of a main dealers since i bought it.I’ve kept my 335Xd all bmw and despite them buggering up my digital service record, they said they’d be happy to sell as AUC and it has the bmw warranty still.
And arguably it’s cost me sod all extra vs a good independent.
But the residual boost? Likely £500. So maybe what I’ve spent extra.
And on an M2? Likely a bit more. But by 8yrs it’ll be cost neutral. By 15 yrs no one will give a crap as it’ll be based on condition.
I'm fortunate enough to live a mile from a really good BMW indy (which is good going given where we live is quite rural!)
I'll probably run mine three years which is probably typical ownership time for a car these days.
I guess its down to the O/P to factor all the info here and how long they plan on keeping it and take it from there.
I’m surely tempted by an E46 M3 (manual) convertible for next year…
The service history/parts etc by then will be meaningless.
I do also keep thinking about an M140i to replace my 130i. One came up private locally, manual, mem seats, heating, pro nav, etc… 5dr too, just in white… but I think they look quite good in white.
It’s all just money right now. M3s are still daft prices and many models are gonna be money pits, and M140i are still levitating on value so I don’t want to get caught by a few years of crippling depreciation as I’m not desperate to swap.
Tough times when looking to swap cars.
I do also keep thinking about a 240i convertible to kill two birds with one stone a bit, but mem seat manuals gearbox examples are like hens teeth!
The service history/parts etc by then will be meaningless.
I do also keep thinking about an M140i to replace my 130i. One came up private locally, manual, mem seats, heating, pro nav, etc… 5dr too, just in white… but I think they look quite good in white.
It’s all just money right now. M3s are still daft prices and many models are gonna be money pits, and M140i are still levitating on value so I don’t want to get caught by a few years of crippling depreciation as I’m not desperate to swap.
Tough times when looking to swap cars.
I do also keep thinking about a 240i convertible to kill two birds with one stone a bit, but mem seat manuals gearbox examples are like hens teeth!
Mr Whippy said:
I’m surely tempted by an E46 M3 (manual) convertible for next year…
The service history/parts etc by then will be meaningless.
I do also keep thinking about an M140i to replace my 130i. One came up private locally, manual, mem seats, heating, pro nav, etc… 5dr too, just in white… but I think they look quite good in white.
It’s all just money right now. M3s are still daft prices and many models are gonna be money pits, and M140i are still levitating on value so I don’t want to get caught by a few years of crippling depreciation as I’m not desperate to swap.
Tough times when looking to swap cars.
I do also keep thinking about a 240i convertible to kill two birds with one stone a bit, but mem seat manuals gearbox examples are like hens teeth!
Convertible M4’s are starting to get to tasty price range. The service history/parts etc by then will be meaningless.
I do also keep thinking about an M140i to replace my 130i. One came up private locally, manual, mem seats, heating, pro nav, etc… 5dr too, just in white… but I think they look quite good in white.
It’s all just money right now. M3s are still daft prices and many models are gonna be money pits, and M140i are still levitating on value so I don’t want to get caught by a few years of crippling depreciation as I’m not desperate to swap.
Tough times when looking to swap cars.
I do also keep thinking about a 240i convertible to kill two birds with one stone a bit, but mem seat manuals gearbox examples are like hens teeth!
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202312235...
Folding hard top taking up whole boot makes these a no go if you go out for day with family (ie, 2 adults 2 kids)?
I’d considered an E9x M3 convertible but the boot was a joke. I assume F series is equally bad?
Plus folding hard tops just sound like a wallet emptying time-bomb?
A “sorted” M240i manual is probably half decent I’d just need to actually try one with kids in the back.
E46 M3 has quite a nice roofline level, 240i looks so high they’d never get to see out…?
I’d considered an E9x M3 convertible but the boot was a joke. I assume F series is equally bad?
Plus folding hard tops just sound like a wallet emptying time-bomb?
A “sorted” M240i manual is probably half decent I’d just need to actually try one with kids in the back.
E46 M3 has quite a nice roofline level, 240i looks so high they’d never get to see out…?
Hippea said:
Thanks for the link, I had been looking for an M140 for my son's 21st and put a deposit down once I saw it posted here on Sunday. It's a great spec and a fantastic example. Just back from a fun drive picking it up in London and tempted to keep it.
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/vwR1AD4u[/url]
Jer_1974 said:
Thanks for the link, I had been looking for an M140 for my son's 21st and put a deposit down once I saw it posted here on Sunday. It's a great spec and a fantastic example. Just back from a fun drive picking it up in London and tempted to keep it.
That does look rather nice and what a great gift. Out of interest isn't the insurance horrific at 21 though?Jer_1974 said:
Thanks for the link, I had been looking for an M140 for my son's 21st and put a deposit down once I saw it posted here on Sunday. It's a great spec and a fantastic example. Just back from a fun drive picking it up in London and tempted to keep it.
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/vwR1AD4u[/url]
Looks really lovely.[url]|https://thumbsnap.com/vwR1AD4u[/url]I see it has the lower suspension brace retrofitted too. We'd that done to ours, its supposed to help handling notably.
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