Fancy an affordable old school "supercar"

[samoht]

Since you're upping the budget, how about a De Tomaso Guara with a BMW V8 for £85k ?

Pic from classicdriver.com
https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/de-tomaso/gua...

[RikF430]

Intriguing that you're down to the Esprit and the Mondial. Don't be put off by Ferrari maintenance costs. My current and probably last Ferrari went from its first owner and 10 years of unbroken franchised servicing (and bills to prove, oh my!) to me, and straight to the Tom Keys at Silverstone. Whilst this is never going to be cheap, getting one of the many indy specialists alongside you is as essential for your peace of mind as finding the right car. I trust Tom (and dad Terry, bro James) but mates swear by others, it's just another argument over a pint over who: and if the mechanic drives the marque, they tend to share the highs and lows with you. As for the maths, a well-maintained Ferrari is going to reward you in much less aggressive depreciation than just about any other marque.

And I know: I have an X180!

I absolutely loved the Esprits of my youth and this one was on my bucket list. Love it so much that even tho it went up for sale on PH a couple of months ago (and it's still available), I am happy to have it alongside my daily driver. Clue as to what that is, is in my handle: I'm def in the school that believes driving these cars prolongs their lifetime. Same rules: get the right car with an impeccable record, and get the right indy - in this case, a Norfolk-trained youngster who went solo from one of the best known Lotus names. Every mile and service must be accounted for, no excuses, and you must invest in a knowledgeable inspection to get a handle on crises looming -there will be some!

I bought the X180 5 years ago after hankering for my long-since sold F355, but having been hopelessly priced out of the Ferrari market. (C'mon guys, since when is a F355 worth more than a 550?...Oops, I can hear the guffaws already!)

The X180 is a fantastic old-school Brit forbear to the F355 experience. Barring the odd 200 horses, power steering, Italian lines and the V8 sound, that is. But it's still a head turner (I get video'd in it more than in any of the Ferraris!).

I have the normally aspirated 2.2 high compression model, so no turbo or V8 issues that plagued Esprits - which are probably exaggerated, tbh. I did want an S1-S3 wedge before my senses got a hold of me and I re-discovered the Series-saving Stevens designed X180, which benefitted hugely from more modern engineering. And personally I think the flat engine deck + flying buttress wings look oh-so-gorgeous, compared to the "fastback" glass hatch thingy of the S4/turbbo's. And I absolutely hate the wings/foils on the S4. But beauty is in the eye, etc.

Talking of which, my rather gangstere'd look (long story) does draw some tuts - but it's a Lotus Esprit, after all, and they were never subtle! Lurking in the background of the pic is a mini Mystery Machine for the school run, so you get that I've waited too long to live the dream to be worried about what anyone else thinks, have fun your way and be damned! Beneath both paint jobs are unmolested originals, heritage shining through.

Price on these is always a black art. I would think a Mondial at less than £35k is really a list of parts. Whereas surely that buys you a lot of Lotus Esprit? Mine is on sale half that! Mind you, with the prices Esprits are being offered at (I won't go as far as saying "actually fetching"!) maybe the usually more bankable Ferrari badge is the safer investment. If of course you are still fooling yourself that buying either of these is an investment! These are sources of joy (and despair!): if you deserve one, have found the budget, got permission, found a reputable team to look after it - buy one.

So, Esprit or Mondial - you'll not go wrong if you get the right car, and IMHO you'll love each just as much - or maybe both, in turn!

[Shifter1]

2Btoo said:

Define 'supercar' for me and I'll decide whether to get in a huff about your post or not!



ETA: Probe fails on the pop-up headlights point.

Well, fair enough. But does anybody really consider a 944 a supercar? Or even the 928? Most don't consider a 911 a supercar, myself included.

I will not touch the Probe remark.

[Shifter1]

ChocolateFrog said:

Always struggle to look past the Top Gear £10000 supercar challenge.

Yep. And watching old Wheeler Dealers episodes depresses me as well.

[Pericoloso]

samoht said:

Since you're upping the budget, how about a De Tomaso Guara with a BMW V8 for £85k ?

Pic from classicdriver.com
https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/de-tomaso/gua...

Where are you going to find another ?

Saw one for the first time at Brands Hatch Festival Italia ,it's a handsome beast .

One I saw was silver grey.

[Shifter1]

samoht said:

Matra Murena S?
"shows up the Porsche 911 as ill-balanced and inept" - LKJS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_Murena

Oh yeah, we got those. That is actually a great shout. Barely makes the age and is more like a MR2 than a supercar. But somehow does it. Although I always liked the older Bagheera better, for some reason. I guess it's the proportions. But I somehow doubt it will fit the OP's needs. It has nothing on a Esprit.

[Shifter1]

TurboBlue said:

OP, I think the choice is as you set out in the first post; Lotus vs Venturi if you want to keep this under £30k; no-body has linked the Venturi that is for sale on PH but there are currently two; the cheapest at £29,995 for a MVS 200 model. Similiar age Esprits are between £20-25k with a little more power from a smaller engine. I've no experience with either so I'll make a subjective call, based solely on looks - I prefer the French car; and just for viewing pleasure:

Is it just me or these Venturi cars look a bit like the Pontiac Fiero? Something about it reminds me of the Pontiac. Nothing wrong with that though.

[2Btoo]

Shifter1 said:

Well, fair enough. But does anybody really consider a 944 a supercar? Or even the 928? Most don't consider a 911 a supercar, myself included.

I will not touch the Probe remark.

Dunno. But in order to say whether or not the 944 is a supercar needs a definition of what a supercar is, surely? Although that may be beyond the remit of this thread.

Shifter1 said:

Is it just me or these Venturi cars look a bit like the Pontiac Fiero? Something about it reminds me of the Pontiac. Nothing wrong with that though.

Yes, I can see Fiero in there. I can see a bit of VW Corrado in there as well, mainly around the shape of the front wings. Corrado is (for me) a better association.

[GreatGranny]

OP, if you can the budget to £40+ then it would be the NSX for me.

Unique looks and screaming V6 plus it's very usable everyday.

However the Esprit is a great looking car.

[Shifter1]

2Btoo said:

Yes, I can see Fiero in there. I can see a bit of VW Corrado in there as well, mainly around the shape of the front wings. Corrado is (for me) a better association.

I see what you mean about the front wing looking like the Corrado a bit. But I think they are very differently shaped cars. The Corrado is a classic hatcback. The Venturi is a coupe. The proportions are different.





But the body division running across the middle, the proportions, even the wheelbase of the Venturi is basically the same as the Fiero. I think the main difference is the height of the green house. It's of course not an exact match. It's just that every time I look at the Venturi always brings the Fiero to mind.



The Venturi prototype even had the air intake before the rear wheels.



But what the Venturi really looks a lot like is the Lotus Etna.



And of course there is quite a lot of resemblance with the Stevens Esprit in the Venturi too. And although the Venturi came before the Stevens Esprit, I think the Stevens Esprit took quite some cues from the Etna, which could be argued is slightly older than the Venturi.

But back to the Corrado, interestingly, the Venturi prototype had a VW Golf GTi engine.

Edited by Shifter1 on Wednesday 29th April 10:08

[Shifter1]

GreatGranny said:

OP, if you can the budget to £40+ then it would be the NSX for me.

Unique looks and screaming V6 plus it's very usable everyday.

However the Esprit is a great looking car.

All of that true.

But not even close to the event and fun which is driving a Esprit.

The feeling of driving the NSX is not much different than driving any Honda, which is not a put down. Just didn't feel like I was driving a supercar. This was the first thing that I noticed when compared to things like the Esprit and even Ferraris.

[GreatGranny]

Shifter1 said:

All of that true.

But not even close to the event and fun which is driving a Esprit.

The feeling of driving the NSX is not much different than driving any Honda, which is not a put down. Just didn't feel like I was driving a supercar. This was the first thing that I noticed when compared to things like the Esprit and even Ferraris.

I've not driven one but are you saying it's not much different from driving a Civic or a Jazz?!?!
Just pottering at low speed I can imagine it's very docile and quiet like a Civic but at higher speeds surely it is much more special.

[irocfan]

Shifter1 said:

let's be honest here, judged purely on looks that is not at all bad

[Shifter1]

GreatGranny said:

I've not driven one but are you saying it's not much different from driving a Civic or a Jazz?!?!
Just pottering at low speed I can imagine it's very docile and quiet like a Civic but at higher speeds surely it is much more special.

Of course this is not what I meat. I didn't say it dynamically drives like a Honda.

It corners like it's on rails and drives like the mid engine sports car it is.

I said the felling is like driving any Honda. From the switch gear, to the interior, to the sensation, probably because it feels so well screwed together, it just doesn't feel like driving a supercar of the era. Yes, very easy to drive too. I have to say I found it a bit boring. But I also find the Cayman boring.

All together it's pretty obvious you are in a Honda.

The Esprit feels like a "spaceship" in comparison.

That's all I meant.

[irocfan]

a couple of left-field ideas here...

AC 300ME
1989 BMW 850 (not mid-engined but pop-up lights and seriously lovely to look at!)

[Shifter1]

irocfan said:

let's be honest here, judged purely on looks that is not at bad

Not at all. I find it better looking than any of the MR2s. And even if you judge more than looks. The Fiero is probably the most misjudged and unfairly maligned car of the last 30 years. The first year cars had the 4 cylinders and a few caught on fire and the car never recovered from that. Never mind that Ferraris and Lamborghinis still catch on fire all the time.

But when they launched the V6 it was not bad. It had 140bhp when the Corvette 5.7 V8 had 205. But the car weighs nothing. It is enough to have some fun and the car is actually fun to drive.

And in 1988 GM completely overhauled the car with full new suspension etc. The 1988 cars basically give nothing away to some of the exotics of the time. Truly sophisticated suspension set up etc. But GM after investing several millions to upgrade the car killed it a year later. Because the damage to the name was already done.

So many people just bad mouth the car without even knowing anything let alone driving one. I was very surprised when I drove a V6 GT. Maybe because in Europe the roads are much better, I felt it was not only fun to drive but quite good for a 1987 car of that nature. Handled like a sports car. Certainly miles better than any Camaro or Mustang of the time. B roads can be a thrill in one of them. Never drove a 1988 though as they are very rare. But it can only be even better.

But people just go on repeating the nonsense. Watch the Doug Demuro review on it as he clearly likes the car but seems to be ashamed to admit it. He even says something like "Oh no, I will be noticed as the guy who likes the Fiero". But he likes it. It is fun. But a lot of people like to give it grief just because everybody does. A pity so many of them are scrapped to build horrible kit cars and replicas. Maybe that will make them rare enough in the future.

Edited by Shifter1 on Wednesday 29th April 10:33

[Olivergt]

irocfan said:

a couple of left-field ideas here...

AC 300ME
1989 BMW 850 (not mid-engined but pop-up lights and seriously lovely to look at!)

Another shout for the BMW 850, specifically the CSI version, these are all manuals, and apart from the front engine, they should tick a lot of boxes.

Something like this:

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1201820

And hopefully not too expensive to run!

[ReverendCounter]

Slightly under your 80's-90's threshold:

1978 FIA Registered Lancia Monte Carlo Race Car - £35k

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1183698

[MorganP104]

Olivergt said:

irocfan said:

a couple of left-field ideas here...

AC 300ME
1989 BMW 850 (not mid-engined but pop-up lights and seriously lovely to look at!)

Another shout for the BMW 850, specifically the CSI version, these are all manuals, and apart from the front engine, they should tick a lot of boxes.

Something like this:

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1201820

And hopefully not too expensive to run!

It's amazing how much these go for, in comparison to the 750i, which had the same engine, but with more doors.

[RikF430]

That 850 in Mauritius Blue, oh, yes!

Did I say that £35k for a Mondial would buy you a list of parts? This looks like a lot of car for under £30k:

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

I am even tempted to try to chop my X180 against it!

Back in '94, I picked up at JFK by a pal who promised he would pick me up in his rental sports car. I said, "Mate, that's not a sports car, that's a Probe." Guess he had the last laugh!