EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...
Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
There is already EU wide law in place that allows the restriction of all forms of energy if that will impact critical requirements. This is the latest draft for further changes coming for Germany.Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
Update of the integrated national Energy and climate plan
https://commission.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/...
Since this was written the German courts have ruled that €60 billion of the funding is illegal and cannot be assigned, throwing the whole investment plan and government into chaos.
Edited by 520TORQUES on Tuesday 28th November 18:24
otolith said:
wormus said:
This’ll most likely generate lots of passive aggression from the usual suspects, hopefully directed towards the mayor of London
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/electr...
“ Vehicles with larger batteries are set to pay more due to having a higher carbon footprint during their construction, taking up more space and causing more wear and tear to the road.”
At last, some sense. Tax these monsters off the road.
Article seems a bit thin on what the charges for ICEs will be? Telegraph FUDding about EVs again? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/electr...
“ Vehicles with larger batteries are set to pay more due to having a higher carbon footprint during their construction, taking up more space and causing more wear and tear to the road.”
At last, some sense. Tax these monsters off the road.
Current annual resident permit is £166, or £117.50 for engines under 1200cc, EVs free.
The proposal is to put EVs into two lower bands of £40 or £80 for the year, the lower band for battery sizes under 70 kWh.
So a better summary might be 'Cash-strapped council considering charging residents for EV parking permits at 25% or 50% of the ICE rate depending on battery size".
Separately, for hourly on-street parking the current exemption which allows EVs to be parked for the maximum period after buying the minimum available ticket is to be withdrawn; EVs will now be charged £4.62 an hour to park, compared to a minimum of £5.28 an hour for the lowest-emitting ICEs.
Basically as with central govt they can see their revenue running away as people shift to EVs, so are taking steps to shore it up.
Edited by samoht on Tuesday 28th November 18:29
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...
Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
Only applies to non-public chargers, i.e home chargers. Most of which dont charge much faster than that anyways and are mostly utilised when the electricity capacity isnt strained (at night).Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
samoht said:
Current annual resident permit is £166, or £117.50 for engines under 1200cc, EVs free.
The proposal is to put EVs into two lower bands of £40 or £80 for the year, the lower band for battery sizes under 70 kWh.
So a better summary might be 'Cash-strapped council considering charging residents for EV parking permits at 25% or 50% of the ICE rate depending on battery size".
Crikey, that’s really “taxing these monsters off the roads” The proposal is to put EVs into two lower bands of £40 or £80 for the year, the lower band for battery sizes under 70 kWh.
So a better summary might be 'Cash-strapped council considering charging residents for EV parking permits at 25% or 50% of the ICE rate depending on battery size".
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...
Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
I understand Germany's electricity generation mix is still very old fashioned, heavily relying on very polluting and carbon intensive brown coal with very few renewables. So they only have themselves to blame for shortsightedness and lack of investment when they had the chance. Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
GT9 said:
wormus said:
At last, some sense. Tax these monsters off the road.
Did you type that whilst sat in your Range Rover? 
georgeyboy12345 said:
Earthdweller said:
https://x.com/gregkable/status/1729421585424027906...
Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
I understand Germany's electricity generation mix is still very old fashioned, heavily relying on very polluting and carbon intensive brown coal with very few renewables. So they only have themselves to blame for shortsightedness and lack of investment when they had the chance. Germany proposes new law to cap charger speeds at times of peak demand
The German government has proposed an "electricity rationalisation" act for 2024. It would require charger operators to cap charging speeds of EVs to "50km (31 miles) in two hours of charging" at times when the electricity network is overloaded.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germany...
wormus said:
No, but I have just been out in it and was extremely comfortable. Whilst it burns many super unleaded dinosaurs, no children died mining precious minerals to make it. Well if they did, it was 22 years ago!
Unless you’ve invented a new way to refine your super unleaded, your car uses more rare earth metals than you realise. MrTrilby said:
wormus said:
No, but I have just been out in it and was extremely comfortable. Whilst it burns many super unleaded dinosaurs, no children died mining precious minerals to make it. Well if they did, it was 22 years ago!
Unless you’ve invented a new way to refine your super unleaded, your car uses more rare earth metals than you realise. Pedantry aside, refining is a relatively minor use of cobalt - approx 7% of world output the last time I looked. World output is 190,000 tons pa according to Statista. So 13,300 tons is used to process oils and gases to reduce/remove sulphur.
Given the humungous amounts of fuels that are refined from the 100 million barrels per day of oil that are produced, the quantity of cobalt “used” by an ICE must be trivial.
Mikehig said:
MrTrilby said:
wormus said:
No, but I have just been out in it and was extremely comfortable. Whilst it burns many super unleaded dinosaurs, no children died mining precious minerals to make it. Well if they did, it was 22 years ago!
Unless you’ve invented a new way to refine your super unleaded, your car uses more rare earth metals than you realise. Pedantry aside, refining is a relatively minor use of cobalt - approx 7% of world output the last time I looked. World output is 190,000 tons pa according to Statista. So 13,300 tons is used to process oils and gases to reduce/remove sulphur.
Given the humungous amounts of fuels that are refined from the 100 million barrels per day of oil that are produced, the quantity of cobalt “used” by an ICE must be trivial.
https://www.ft.com/video/b6908d24-0c39-425c-a1ed-6...
wormus said:
Indeed, desperate isn’t it? Meanwhile large corporations plunder the earth for lithium, starving communities of their water supply. Nothing green about building EVs.
https://www.ft.com/video/b6908d24-0c39-425c-a1ed-6...
Did you watch the video? https://www.ft.com/video/b6908d24-0c39-425c-a1ed-6...
If so, what was the point you were trying to make?
DriveSnowdonia said:
I wonder how long it will take for the currently smug ULEZ dodging, low-tax EV drivers in London to wake up and smell the coffee? Increased charging is incoming, just as was always was going to happen.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-vehicle...
As ever with climate hysteria and saving the planet - follow the money!
We’re a bit slow, aren’t we…https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-vehicle...
As ever with climate hysteria and saving the planet - follow the money!
samoht said:
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/sites/default/files...
Current annual resident permit is £166, or £117.50 for engines under 1200cc, EVs free.
The proposal is to put EVs into two lower bands of £40 or £80 for the year, the lower band for battery sizes under 70 kWh.
So a better summary might be 'Cash-strapped council considering charging residents for EV parking permits at 25% or 50% of the ICE rate depending on battery size".
Separately, for hourly on-street parking the current exemption which allows EVs to be parked for the maximum period after buying the minimum available ticket is to be withdrawn; EVs will now be charged £4.62 an hour to park, compared to a minimum of £5.28 an hour for the lowest-emitting ICEs.
Basically as with central govt they can see their revenue running away as people shift to EVs, so are taking steps to shore it up.
Current annual resident permit is £166, or £117.50 for engines under 1200cc, EVs free.
The proposal is to put EVs into two lower bands of £40 or £80 for the year, the lower band for battery sizes under 70 kWh.
So a better summary might be 'Cash-strapped council considering charging residents for EV parking permits at 25% or 50% of the ICE rate depending on battery size".
Separately, for hourly on-street parking the current exemption which allows EVs to be parked for the maximum period after buying the minimum available ticket is to be withdrawn; EVs will now be charged £4.62 an hour to park, compared to a minimum of £5.28 an hour for the lowest-emitting ICEs.
Basically as with central govt they can see their revenue running away as people shift to EVs, so are taking steps to shore it up.
DriveSnowdonia said:
I wonder how long it will take for the currently smug ULEZ dodging, low-tax EV drivers in London to wake up and smell the coffee? Increased charging is incoming, just as was always was going to happen.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-vehicle...
As ever with climate hysteria and saving the planet - follow the money!
So the parking rate is based on emissions and all of the EVs on the list are in the bottom band? Closely followed by PHEVs and then followed by ICE cars in the highest bands... Where's the EV punishment? It seems more like they've simply removed the EV discount that was present and added ICE penalisation.https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-vehicle...
As ever with climate hysteria and saving the planet - follow the money!
DriveSnowdonia said:
Sorry, had not seen that. Just goes to show though that EV's will probably not be competitive in the future on cost grounds. Electricity will be getting a lot more expensive in the future for following reasons:
1. To pay for and invest in the huge infrastructure changes required to transition to renewables - including government subsidies etc.
2. Because the demand on our electrical grid (due to changes in business, household and transport usage) will increase exponentially.
3. Due to (in the absence of investment in significant nuclear or electrical storage capacity) the maintenance of a large fossil fuel backup that will be required for when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine.
4. Having to import more expensive energy from other countries if any of the above can not be achieved.
Also, the government will want to recoup any lost revenue with schemes such as the above, in addition to dynamic road pricing etc.
I wonder then whether those EV buyers spending 10's of thousands on luxury EV's, and loosing a significant portion of that spend in depreciation in the first year or two, just so that they are able to brag about saving a few thousand on fuel and tax bills, will finally be a thing of the past?
Off-peak energy tariffs will (already do) steer people to use energy during times of lower demand, as this negates the need to build additional power stations to meet an ever increasing demand for a few hours, twice a day.1. To pay for and invest in the huge infrastructure changes required to transition to renewables - including government subsidies etc.
2. Because the demand on our electrical grid (due to changes in business, household and transport usage) will increase exponentially.
3. Due to (in the absence of investment in significant nuclear or electrical storage capacity) the maintenance of a large fossil fuel backup that will be required for when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine.
4. Having to import more expensive energy from other countries if any of the above can not be achieved.
Also, the government will want to recoup any lost revenue with schemes such as the above, in addition to dynamic road pricing etc.
I wonder then whether those EV buyers spending 10's of thousands on luxury EV's, and loosing a significant portion of that spend in depreciation in the first year or two, just so that they are able to brag about saving a few thousand on fuel and tax bills, will finally be a thing of the past?
if you can charge an EV and home storage battery during this time then these people will/are saving significant money.
The people getting hit with the high energy cost in the future, will be those who can't/won't install a smart meter and therefore cannot switch to these time of use tariffs, so their energy cost will be weighted towards the high peak rate cost.
Ultimately electricity will reduce in cost, as the reliance on fossil fuel (gas) declines and the electricity price is de-coupled from the gas price.
Also, fuel costs are only going one way - up ! [Longer term, not this month compared to last month
]Couple that with fuel stations swapping pumps for EV chargers, which is already happening at some Shell garages, and Governments taxing polluting vehicles more, very likely further cities with ULEZ charges, means driving a fuel powered vehicle will become ever more expensive.
Edited by SDK on Wednesday 29th November 12:10
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