Has my approved Rolls Royce been “clocked”? Please help
Discussion
Crazy situation to be in, I'm amazed at their response if it were me I'd:
1. Get the car to a specialist and have things like the engine running time vs mileage looked at always a clear sign that a car has been clocked if someone has wound off 40,000 miles it'll be obvious to spot as the average speed will be extremely low get a full report done on the system tell tales to add to the report you have on the physical issues.
2. Get in touch with the CEO of RR and politely outline the situation and the response so far, what you'd like to happen and the course of action you'll be forced into if they cannot help resolve the issues.
3. Contact the previous owner their response or lack of, will speak volumes.
If that all fails then get a specialist solicitor involved hand them everything you've done and let them take it from there, this must be a 170k car as a 2 year old Ghost so worth paying someone to act for you if you get nowhere.
1. Get the car to a specialist and have things like the engine running time vs mileage looked at always a clear sign that a car has been clocked if someone has wound off 40,000 miles it'll be obvious to spot as the average speed will be extremely low get a full report done on the system tell tales to add to the report you have on the physical issues.
2. Get in touch with the CEO of RR and politely outline the situation and the response so far, what you'd like to happen and the course of action you'll be forced into if they cannot help resolve the issues.
3. Contact the previous owner their response or lack of, will speak volumes.
If that all fails then get a specialist solicitor involved hand them everything you've done and let them take it from there, this must be a 170k car as a 2 year old Ghost so worth paying someone to act for you if you get nowhere.
Edited by Wills2 on Saturday 19th September 12:00
Austin_Metro said:
Julian Thompson said:
.... to add, I forgot, they have now introduced “ISTA+” to replace esys.
This is how it looks to reset the service data - nothing at all about anything else:
Julian, that’s terrific info for the OP. Where should he go to get someone to do this interrogation? If it turns out clocked, detailed data of this sort will be gold-dust for his solicitor’s letter. This is how it looks to reset the service data - nothing at all about anything else:
https://mileageblocker.com/about/f/why-use-mileage...
If that’s the case they claim to be able to stop the inter connected modules incrementing the mileage. I am sceptical about that - they might hide it to a casual ISTA+ user like me but there are some absolute genius coders out there. And, even if they have managed that they absolutely will not be able to stop everything else incrementing, however. Lots of it is in elapsed time, number of actuations, number of rotations and other data points - mileage is only one tiny part of it.
There are a thousand other things, particularly in the transmission modules and DME sections but even in the ABS modules that have a huge slew of data that could be used to form a picture.
How to do it? Hmm. That’s a good question. I think I would go on a few of the bmw forums and search for coding topics. Often when newbies ask questions the experienced coders use giving a reply as a way of introduction to themselves.
Or google search: (to learn more)
BMW ISTA CODING TAL FA
Or just: (to find someone)
BMW CODING UK
That should put you in the heart of it.
Driver101 said:
How do you know who the previous owner was? The V5 doesn't name the previous owner anymore and I thought the dealer had to remove all paperwork that included personal data?
It only takes one bill in the SH to expose that. My last purchase came with a folder of paperwork for services, parts, tyres etc. Most of them had the customers name and address at the top. I just wondered? Isn’t the Rolls Royce part of the range with 7 Series underpinnings. Don’t they brag how the car is constantly using telematics to draw a virtual map so that the car is in the correct gear almost intuitively and is this data not constantly pinging back to BMW/RR.
I would be surprised if like my smartphone every journey it has ever made isnt recorded somewhere. My Mini key in 2002 recorded data. At service time they put the key into a reader on the service desk. Like others have said it probably records quality of fuel and how much has been used etc somewhere deep in it.
I would be surprised if like my smartphone every journey it has ever made isnt recorded somewhere. My Mini key in 2002 recorded data. At service time they put the key into a reader on the service desk. Like others have said it probably records quality of fuel and how much has been used etc somewhere deep in it.
Its Just Adz said:
Very interesting topic, I cant be of help but am very interested to see how it turns out.
Re the dealer going silent, Manchester RR is also Manchester McLaren, which dont have the best customer service reputation on here....
I've seen this before, dealers going silent, ignoring correspondence etc..Re the dealer going silent, Manchester RR is also Manchester McLaren, which dont have the best customer service reputation on here....
I guess they do this because most people will just give up?
I wonder how many people actually go all the way and issue court proceedings?
OP, I can't imagine how you're feeling.
All the blurb, all the flashy showrooms, and then the silent treatment when you've got a genuine problem...
I wish you well with the proceedings, and also wish you well personally, with the feelings you must have towards that establishment I'm sure your sleep may be disrupted. I know mine would be.
I hope you get the evidence needed to see this through. The expertise on this forum never ceases to impress me.
Julian Thompson said:
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
One of the best posts I’ve ever read on PH BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42
wiliferus said:
Driver101 said:
Had the name from when I sent off retention cert for private plate it was on original log book
How do you know who the previous owner was? The V5 doesn't name the previous owner anymore and I thought the dealer had to remove all paperwork that included personal data?
It only takes one bill in the SH to expose that. My last purchase came with a folder of paperwork for services, parts, tyres etc. Most of them had the customers name and address at the top. How do you know who the previous owner was? The V5 doesn't name the previous owner anymore and I thought the dealer had to remove all paperwork that included personal data?
Julian Thompson said:
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
I really need to find someone who can hook my car up to one of these ASAP, BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42
Someone else said it earlier in this thread, and I’m inclined to agree - this is likely to be one of those prestige cars that you see being seized on the tv show traffic cops, usually after they catch 6 different guys taking turns ragging it through Bradford town centre on two wheels.
They are normally said to be “hire cars” from some dodgy one-man company, often uninsured, and usually in a poor state inside even though they’re only a year old.
They are normally said to be “hire cars” from some dodgy one-man company, often uninsured, and usually in a poor state inside even though they’re only a year old.
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