Hot hatches as an investment? Give me your opinions!
Discussion
v9 said:
culpz said:
Cheapest 250's are about 6k at the lowest end. What needs doing that you'd think you need to scrap it? Seems pretty extreme to me.
There have been several selling for a price starting with a 5 over the last couple of months. It’s just an accumulation of small jobs, brakes, brake lines, calipers, handbrake, dampers, top mounts, intercooler is rotten, geometry (top mount related) tyres (£200 each) wheels badly need a refurb, small cosmetic issues, fuel gauge is dodgy, now it’s thrown a CEL. Can’t really sell it in this condition as a running car, though it goes well, and it’s near the value to fix all this properly. That’s without the CEL being a big£ fix - not sure yet what that issue is. Sell it as a ‘spares or repair’ might get £2k. People were asking £10k plus a year or two back, but they just don’t sell at that price. The current reality is that they are about half that value.
I'm already feeling like I shouldn't have got rid of my FN2 for my current E92, as I've already spent a fair bit on it and it still needs bits here and there doing and a few new things that have cropped up since. I guess that's just old car ownership for you. I also miss the fun that a hot-hatch brings.
Thank you all for the contributions! Some interesting points are being made, and some good suggestions all around.
I agree that it is questionable whether 00s and 10s hot hatches will follow the same appreciation curve as their predecessors. Younger generations just care less about cars altogether, and the nostalgia factor may not be as strong in the future. But I think that there still will be a demand, and the supply of ICE hot hatches will inevitably stop. We already have a lot less hot hatches currently on sale (basically none from the French and Italians), and I foresee a future not too far from now when there would only be electric or heavily hybridised options on the market. The cars currently on the road will diminish, even if the survival rates are better than with 80s-90s machinery due to better rustproofing, due to a number of other issues that will make them uneconomical to repair. And there are still plenty of 20-30 year olds that are into cars and will have some disposable income that they would look to spend on the hot hatch that they couldn't afford in their youth. So my prediction is that while we're unlikely to see the price hike that older cars experienced, 00s and 10s hot hatches will be at the least depreciation proof if kept to a good condition.
That said, I think that analogue hot hatches would be a safe bet. Anything with a manual gearbox, NA engine and reasonably low weight. I would say the same for anything with an interesting engine (5-pot, V6 / straight 6, supercharged). The best in class will also be a good bet I imagine (Meganes, Civics).
With a £5000 budget I would say that a R53 Mini would be a good choice. Focus ST 225 also sounds good. A Phase 1 Clio 172 would be what I'd like the most, but at that budget it will be a slightly ropey example. I recently saw a 106 Rallye in need of restoration for sale for 2 grand, but it was sold within the first few hours of the ad being online.
I agree that it is questionable whether 00s and 10s hot hatches will follow the same appreciation curve as their predecessors. Younger generations just care less about cars altogether, and the nostalgia factor may not be as strong in the future. But I think that there still will be a demand, and the supply of ICE hot hatches will inevitably stop. We already have a lot less hot hatches currently on sale (basically none from the French and Italians), and I foresee a future not too far from now when there would only be electric or heavily hybridised options on the market. The cars currently on the road will diminish, even if the survival rates are better than with 80s-90s machinery due to better rustproofing, due to a number of other issues that will make them uneconomical to repair. And there are still plenty of 20-30 year olds that are into cars and will have some disposable income that they would look to spend on the hot hatch that they couldn't afford in their youth. So my prediction is that while we're unlikely to see the price hike that older cars experienced, 00s and 10s hot hatches will be at the least depreciation proof if kept to a good condition.
That said, I think that analogue hot hatches would be a safe bet. Anything with a manual gearbox, NA engine and reasonably low weight. I would say the same for anything with an interesting engine (5-pot, V6 / straight 6, supercharged). The best in class will also be a good bet I imagine (Meganes, Civics).
With a £5000 budget I would say that a R53 Mini would be a good choice. Focus ST 225 also sounds good. A Phase 1 Clio 172 would be what I'd like the most, but at that budget it will be a slightly ropey example. I recently saw a 106 Rallye in need of restoration for sale for 2 grand, but it was sold within the first few hours of the ad being online.
On that understanding (waining interest in cars)
i’d think italy and germany are less likely or more likely to be slower at losing interest and with that in mind, S1, 147 GTA?
Though you’d have to go LHD for that to work, look at the most pricey already and its e30 M3s, Intégrales, Alfa SZs etc, the ltter not even motorsport related, RS fords are having very good performance stats so if RHD, then go ford, escort cosworth and sierra out of reach but a series 1 or 2 escort RS turbo ? Not looked at their prices…
I have am original paint, completely standard LHD manual 190e 2.5 cosworth with 50k miles on it that i found in underground storage in spain, its condition was unbelievable & the demand in germany is just stupid! In the middle of recommissioning it at the moment.
i’d think italy and germany are less likely or more likely to be slower at losing interest and with that in mind, S1, 147 GTA?
Though you’d have to go LHD for that to work, look at the most pricey already and its e30 M3s, Intégrales, Alfa SZs etc, the ltter not even motorsport related, RS fords are having very good performance stats so if RHD, then go ford, escort cosworth and sierra out of reach but a series 1 or 2 escort RS turbo ? Not looked at their prices…
I have am original paint, completely standard LHD manual 190e 2.5 cosworth with 50k miles on it that i found in underground storage in spain, its condition was unbelievable & the demand in germany is just stupid! In the middle of recommissioning it at the moment.
Edited by Kerniki on Wednesday 22 May 19:46
The Boring Answer...
There's no such thing as a good car investment, hot hatch, supercar, classic or van, they're all crap as an investment.
If you mean which is likely to 'loose the least' then that's just a guess as well. If it was any better than a guess it would, indeed, be an investment, and knowledgable folk would be withdrawing cash from their pensions and buying up all examples of that type of vehicle. That would increase the desire for said vehicle and push up the price which would reduce it's investment potential.
Not only do they nearly all loose value, they cost a lot to keep on the road.
Told you it was a boring answer
There's no such thing as a good car investment, hot hatch, supercar, classic or van, they're all crap as an investment.
If you mean which is likely to 'loose the least' then that's just a guess as well. If it was any better than a guess it would, indeed, be an investment, and knowledgable folk would be withdrawing cash from their pensions and buying up all examples of that type of vehicle. That would increase the desire for said vehicle and push up the price which would reduce it's investment potential.
Not only do they nearly all loose value, they cost a lot to keep on the road.
Told you it was a boring answer
Tye Green said:
The Boring Answer...
There's no such thing as a good car investment, hot hatch, supercar, classic or van, they're all crap as an investment.
If you mean which is likely to 'loose the least' then that's just a guess as well. If it was any better than a guess it would, indeed, be an investment, and knowledgable folk would be withdrawing cash from their pensions and buying up all examples of that type of vehicle. That would increase the desire for said vehicle and push up the price which would reduce it's investment potential.
Not only do they nearly all loose value, they cost a lot to keep on the road.
Told you it was a boring answer
At the £5k end of the scale I'm sure you are right, a few suggested above might hold their value or even increase slightly but it's not a money making proposition after servicing, repairs, tax and insurance.There's no such thing as a good car investment, hot hatch, supercar, classic or van, they're all crap as an investment.
If you mean which is likely to 'loose the least' then that's just a guess as well. If it was any better than a guess it would, indeed, be an investment, and knowledgable folk would be withdrawing cash from their pensions and buying up all examples of that type of vehicle. That would increase the desire for said vehicle and push up the price which would reduce it's investment potential.
Not only do they nearly all loose value, they cost a lot to keep on the road.
Told you it was a boring answer
At the top end it is possible to buy rare breed Porsche, Ferrari etc use them sparingly, own them long-term and own an appreciating asset while having a lot more fun than money in the bank.
Just bought a cheap R53 Mini Coper S. A fun riot around the North York Moors. Will we make money on it? I doubt it after servicing etc. WIll it depreciate less than more modern stuff - hopefully. Will it cost more to maintain? - Potentially it's 19 years old.
I've owned numerous cars in the past at this swan song stage of life, Peugout 309GTi, Subaru Legacy GTB, Mazda MX5 Mk1s, Jag XJR, Peugout 306 GTi-6, the fixing vs value increase is always interesting. If you like and enjoy the car and there's nothing else interesting as an alternative then fixing makes sense, on the other hand there's always that next bargain round the corner...
I've owned numerous cars in the past at this swan song stage of life, Peugout 309GTi, Subaru Legacy GTB, Mazda MX5 Mk1s, Jag XJR, Peugout 306 GTi-6, the fixing vs value increase is always interesting. If you like and enjoy the car and there's nothing else interesting as an alternative then fixing makes sense, on the other hand there's always that next bargain round the corner...
I think they can be fun little investments. I've got a little collection.
106 Rallye S2 it's been fully restored absolutely mint car bought for £10k probably worth 15 now but possibly more on the right day.
172 Cup Clio this is a tidy original one paid 5 it's probably not worth too much more
R26 Megane did pretty good with this one it's a tidy original 60k car paid £7500 probably worth 11ish on the right day it's an arctic white lux
I've just bought for enjoyment really but nice to know they are slowly appreciating. The R26 is still a great drive all these years after launch.
106 Rallye S2 it's been fully restored absolutely mint car bought for £10k probably worth 15 now but possibly more on the right day.
172 Cup Clio this is a tidy original one paid 5 it's probably not worth too much more
R26 Megane did pretty good with this one it's a tidy original 60k car paid £7500 probably worth 11ish on the right day it's an arctic white lux
I've just bought for enjoyment really but nice to know they are slowly appreciating. The R26 is still a great drive all these years after launch.
Its like anything, if you have your whits about you and know what you’re doing with buying then its perfectly possible.
you have to enjoy the hunt for the correct car at the right money, takes time which most dont have, but for me time spent doing things you enjoy is time well spent in this life & to me, certainly not hard work.
This approach pays dividends monetary wise but its certainly not my reason for doing it
This is why people in 9-5 work squeezing in ‘what car can i buy that’ll be an investment’ doesnt really work and others say, it cant work, it can but your lifestyles and capital dont really lend themselves to how it can work.
The sure fire cars that do work you’d never be able to drive that much as you cant add the miles and even if you did you’d worry about them so much due to how much of your finances they’ve tied up.
Buying a hot hatch circa 10-15k though? Hitting a plateau financially with inflation is possible, you might hit a unicorn like the sierra but its likely to be luck more than anything else.
Still, its all good fun finding things, even reading threads like this about the hunt are fun
you have to enjoy the hunt for the correct car at the right money, takes time which most dont have, but for me time spent doing things you enjoy is time well spent in this life & to me, certainly not hard work.
This approach pays dividends monetary wise but its certainly not my reason for doing it
This is why people in 9-5 work squeezing in ‘what car can i buy that’ll be an investment’ doesnt really work and others say, it cant work, it can but your lifestyles and capital dont really lend themselves to how it can work.
The sure fire cars that do work you’d never be able to drive that much as you cant add the miles and even if you did you’d worry about them so much due to how much of your finances they’ve tied up.
Buying a hot hatch circa 10-15k though? Hitting a plateau financially with inflation is possible, you might hit a unicorn like the sierra but its likely to be luck more than anything else.
Still, its all good fun finding things, even reading threads like this about the hunt are fun
Kerniki said:
The sure fire cars that do work you’d never be able to drive that much as you cant add the miles and even if you did you’d worry about them so much due to how much of your finances they’ve tied up.
The answer to this is where many of us with these cars go, own multiple exclusive collectors cars, that way you can ‘only’ drive them infrequently as you spread usage across all the cars, limiting km/miles & thus retaining their value.The cheaper end of the market tends to not work for people as they want to use it more, of course you can just buy what you would love and just drive it, sodding the depreciation which is a good alternative approach in my book and how i used to be with only 2 or 3 cars, after all its about enjoyment, just so happens the more cars you collect the easier it is to limit mileage, an accidental discovery for myself.
I've just let my Fiesta ST go in part ex for just less than 5k.
It's still a great car and has plenty of life left in it. Certainly couldn't see it rising in value though. If I continued to use it there would no doubt be things like suspension work to come, not to mention the cam belt before too long. That wipes out any gain in value. But I think they will probably drop to 3k before the better examples start to creep up again.
I'll definitely lose more money on my new car if I sell within a few years but life's too short to worry about it.
It's still a great car and has plenty of life left in it. Certainly couldn't see it rising in value though. If I continued to use it there would no doubt be things like suspension work to come, not to mention the cam belt before too long. That wipes out any gain in value. But I think they will probably drop to 3k before the better examples start to creep up again.
I'll definitely lose more money on my new car if I sell within a few years but life's too short to worry about it.
Kerniki said:
The cheaper end of the market tends to not work for people as they want to use it more, of course you can just buy what you would love and just drive it, sodding the depreciation which is a good alternative approach in my book and how i used to be with only 2 or 3 cars, after all its about enjoyment, just so happens the more cars you collect the easier it is to limit mileage, an accidental discovery for myself.
Very true, but offset by extra insurance and RFL (more than £1k per car in my case, which over say a five-year ownership span is the same as £5k of depreciation). Plus additional maintenance costs, as running more cars for the same amount of miles always costs more money. (And also in my case having to pay for extra parking spaces, although that won't apply to many.)Of course, one gains the additional pleasure of owning multiple cars.
If getting really into the weeds, there's also the opportunity cost of tying up capital in a higher-value car, especially right now when rates and markets are high.
fridaypassion said:
The R26 is still a great drive all these years after launch.
If you value driver feedback, the back catalogue only becomes more precious as time passes, not less.IMO the more accurate framing is along the lines of 'Car X is still a great drive, despite having been launched only recently.'
plenty said:
Kerniki said:
The cheaper end of the market tends to not work for people as they want to use it more, of course you can just buy what you would love and just drive it, sodding the depreciation which is a good alternative approach in my book and how i used to be with only 2 or 3 cars, after all its about enjoyment, just so happens the more cars you collect the easier it is to limit mileage, an accidental discovery for myself.
Very true, but offset by extra insurance and RFL (more than £1k per car in my case, which over say a five-year ownership span is the same as £5k of depreciation). Plus additional maintenance costs, as running more cars for the same amount of miles always costs more money. (And also in my case having to pay for extra parking spaces, although that won't apply to many.)Of course, one gains the additional pleasure of owning multiple cars.
If getting really into the weeds, there's also the opportunity cost of tying up capital in a higher-value car, especially right now when rates and markets are high.
You could say having a Pagani sat there is gaining value hand over fist but i dont need or want more money, thats the position i wanted to attain, the moneyngiven over to cars when i buy them is unimportant and gone as far as i’m concerned, i didnt need it for anything else as i made sure ‘anything else’ was already taken care of, the money was completely surplus which was how i wanted my latter years car buying to be, i could never own a car that i didnt use and just sat there earning money, way too ugly for us tbh, i’d rather the other scenario i spoke of..
As someone with an EP3 Civic (MY06 owned since 2007! - Now only a summer car) and an R53 Mini CS (bought a few years ago as a daily/winter/commuter car) its a very difficult decision to try and buy under 5K to make money.
In the grand scheme of things, these hot hatchs are cheap to run and insure / tax if its only going on the road 6 months a year.
Both the Civic and Mini havent cost anything over rountine servicing, get a good Civic thats been looked after and it will not go wrong.
Id probably stick to N/A over turbo but maybe the supercharged mini could also be a great niche, they are starting to go up in value now but not as reliable as the Civic but very hard suspension, even with non run flats and larger tyre wall. It really doesnt like pot holes or speed bumps, much less than the Civic.
How any a decent FN2 Championship white edition? Id had a look and they are about 7-8K bottom end.
Bottom line, you probably wont make any money but i dont think you would lose any
In the grand scheme of things, these hot hatchs are cheap to run and insure / tax if its only going on the road 6 months a year.
Both the Civic and Mini havent cost anything over rountine servicing, get a good Civic thats been looked after and it will not go wrong.
Id probably stick to N/A over turbo but maybe the supercharged mini could also be a great niche, they are starting to go up in value now but not as reliable as the Civic but very hard suspension, even with non run flats and larger tyre wall. It really doesnt like pot holes or speed bumps, much less than the Civic.
How any a decent FN2 Championship white edition? Id had a look and they are about 7-8K bottom end.
Bottom line, you probably wont make any money but i dont think you would lose any
plenty said:
If you value driver feedback, the back catalogue only becomes more precious as time passes, not less.
IMO the more accurate framing is along the lines of 'Car X is still a great drive, despite having been launched only recently.'
There are one or two decent modern cars there's probably less choice of really good cars now than there's ever been tough. The FK8 type R and 718 GT4 are both ones that are particular stand outs for me but generally I think 2010 was the last vintage year for drivers cars.IMO the more accurate framing is along the lines of 'Car X is still a great drive, despite having been launched only recently.'
Internetexplorer said:
Terminator X said:
There is a 106 Rallye parked up at Bicester Heritage. Low miles too apparently. Fair play to the owner, see that worth a fortune in the future.
TX.
Had one new, wasnt great.TX.
Personally Civic Type R or a decent Clio 197/200 Cup car is where there is most likely to be a gain to be made.
TX.
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