Best smoker barges 1-5 large [Vol 21]
Discussion
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I agree - but those are with current prices, and I'm certain a diesel will get more than 35mpg if your V8 is getting 22mpg! Last time I drove a diesel it got almost exactly 2x the mpg as my LS460. So if you're spending £2170 in fuel now that'd save £1085 per year. If fuel prices rise by 30% that's then over £1400/year. Add in the extra tax etc and then you are at £1600/year or so. It starts to add up. But I guess in the grand scheme of things that's not a huge amount, but it is a fair amount. Add in the differences in servicing costs (more oil, coolant, spark plugs etc) and you are then talking over £2k/year.
I can't see me going electric any time soon, the outlay costs are absurd at the moment and I have no way to charge at my home (no off-street parking) so I'd need to charge elsewhere, where the cost is more per kW and I'd be sitting around waiting for ages.
The mpg figures are around town stuff - my B10 V8 can get over 30 on a motorway run but similarly the 435d of my wifes is getting over 50, maybe 55 on a motorway run. I'm pretty sure the 435d doesn't do 44mpg around town and if it did you'd have a blocked dpf in months rather than years. I would dispute your increased servicing costs of the petrol engine over the diesel as the industry knows diesel are as much if not a little more in ongoing costs as well as the spectre of dpf's for diesels used on short journeys. The extra tax doesn't really catch me as the car is pre-monster tax prices and I would save on Insurance as the car is worth considerably less than a newer car. Small swings and roundabouts but I'm fairly confident in my figures.I can't see me going electric any time soon, the outlay costs are absurd at the moment and I have no way to charge at my home (no off-street parking) so I'd need to charge elsewhere, where the cost is more per kW and I'd be sitting around waiting for ages.
When fuel prices rise the margins increase but I'm still not getting anywhere near replacement electric car outlay in savings. I haven't got £10k to spend on a replacement car let alone £35k for an approved used Tesla or £70,000 for a new BMW.
The trickle down of used electric cars isn't happening for two reasons;
1. The people who can afford them new are enjoying the benefits of 'no' fuel prices and keeping them longer, until...
2. The batteries are in such a condition that they need expensive replacement.
The current almost fixed lifespan of electric cars due to battery life stalls the trickle down economics of electric car run-out and with previous Government subsidies and price discounts for new purchases only it will stay this way - who would buy a 10 year old Tesla/other electric car without a warranty?
stickleback123 said:
As a counterpoint after always having a barge I've spent nearly six months and about 5k miles driving a shed Peugeot diesel and I've had to repair nothing, spent no weekends fiddling with it, it's averaged 50mpg so cost all of £700 to do that mileage. It's felt like a weird, strange luxury not to be spending time and money on my car every month, not to care about what the latest warning message is, free of the Forth rail bridge style constant maintenance and upkeep.
When I want fun I've got a new MX5 that goes sideways every time I drive it.
After over 20 years of continual barge ownership I don't see another internal combustion barge in my future unless it's a Lexus GS shed. For smooth, silent power a big EV like a Model S makes even my Mercedes S600 feel like a traction engine and would be cheaper to lease than the Mercedes was to run, at current prices the only reason to mess around with these old barges - comedy value for money and a car so cheap you can throw it away when it breaks - is gone.
This happened to my shed Peugeot recently
We fixed it for half the price of the little heater valve that controlled the temperature of the rear AC in my S600 that stuck open and roasted us all on a bank holiday weekend, and it took the same amount of time to repair as it took to replace the enormous battery in my W221 that needed the entire boot lining and a load of supports moved out.
I have to say that I mostly feel liberated by not running an old barge; I have a shed for the boring stuff and a brand new fun car and neither is a parasite on my time and bank account. I'm looking for a larger shed because the 208 is a bit small, but I'm not even entertaining the idea of another barge until new car availability is sorted, and then I'm going to buy an EV.
As a fellow shed owner I have to say it's a great way to motor cheaply, but it's also not some magic loophole that many seem to self congratulate over. Cheap cars are cheap.When I want fun I've got a new MX5 that goes sideways every time I drive it.
After over 20 years of continual barge ownership I don't see another internal combustion barge in my future unless it's a Lexus GS shed. For smooth, silent power a big EV like a Model S makes even my Mercedes S600 feel like a traction engine and would be cheaper to lease than the Mercedes was to run, at current prices the only reason to mess around with these old barges - comedy value for money and a car so cheap you can throw it away when it breaks - is gone.
This happened to my shed Peugeot recently
We fixed it for half the price of the little heater valve that controlled the temperature of the rear AC in my S600 that stuck open and roasted us all on a bank holiday weekend, and it took the same amount of time to repair as it took to replace the enormous battery in my W221 that needed the entire boot lining and a load of supports moved out.
I have to say that I mostly feel liberated by not running an old barge; I have a shed for the boring stuff and a brand new fun car and neither is a parasite on my time and bank account. I'm looking for a larger shed because the 208 is a bit small, but I'm not even entertaining the idea of another barge until new car availability is sorted, and then I'm going to buy an EV.
Edited by stickleback123 on Wednesday 2nd March 10:36
I'm glad of the MPG and low running costs, but it isn't an alternative to barging. There are also much less financially ruining ways to barge than an S600 which still offer a much nicer experience than a little Peugeot and crucially add a little bit of enjoyment to the drudgery of modern life.
Were the market in any way where it should be, I'd probably be knocking about in something like a 530d GT, but for now I'm shedding.
Jim the Sunderer said:
It would need to be a lot more of a saving for me to drive around giving kids black lung like an 1805 mine owner.
Amen to this.There's enough killing kids in the world for us to avoid adding to the problem.
Burn petrol, save the children.
XJ Sov, AA badges etc, £2k.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2021122307...
Merc 9 seater, bit sheddy, £2.5. YKYWT.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022022429...
Superb 3.6, £3k.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022022429...
stickleback123 said:
McGee_22 said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Here's food for thought for thirsty barge owners (and potential buyers!).....
With fuel prices getting higher and higher (the current Russia situation won't help at all!) do we think big-engined car prices to drop a fair bit? When petrol hits £2/L I can't imagine many people are going to want a V8 old barge. Half of me thinks I should sell up now and get something more sensible, the other half says I don't do enough miles for the current prices to concern me a great deal and I should enjoy a lovely V8 whilst I can, because it'll likely be the last one I own. And how much longer will E5 fuel be around for? If that goes, then I'm in a spot of bother!
Here's my take on this. I drive a 4.6litre V8 estate that averages 22mpg long term and my 7000 miles a year costs £2,170 in fuel.With fuel prices getting higher and higher (the current Russia situation won't help at all!) do we think big-engined car prices to drop a fair bit? When petrol hits £2/L I can't imagine many people are going to want a V8 old barge. Half of me thinks I should sell up now and get something more sensible, the other half says I don't do enough miles for the current prices to concern me a great deal and I should enjoy a lovely V8 whilst I can, because it'll likely be the last one I own. And how much longer will E5 fuel be around for? If that goes, then I'm in a spot of bother!
So if I go to a smaller engined petrol car of the same size that might get to say 28mpg that cost would be £1,704, a saving of £466
If I go to a diesel I might get 35mpg long term and get down to £1,409, saving £761.
But here's the kick - my 21 year old 4.6 V8 works perfectly, is very well equipped and does everything I need. An estate with self-levelling suspension for big loads, roof bars for ladders and a top box, detachable tow bar for the unicorn occasions I need it and luxurious inside with working Nav, heated seats, working AC, TV, bluetooth and streaming, parking sensors that work - everything a modern car has.
Swapping to a new car will cost money to change (it always does) and the short journeys I do are not suited to a diesel and may get me in to dpf problems and the additional cost that brings over petrol cars. Moving to a smaller engined petrol car generally means you lose some of the luxury items in a car as well as the ability to occasionally open up the taps, burn some go-go juice and put a smile on my face.
Without a huge amount of expenditure I will never be able to buy a luxury electric car in the next ten years - they are simply too expensive so where is my financial motivation to get out of barging about in my Alpina V8. Life is short, 50 was a few years ago and three score and ten seems optimistic for someone with my history so sod it, barge life in a big V8 is staying around for years to come.
Nevertheless, I'd have hated taking a smaller and lesser powered vehicle to Provence and back with family and luggage. Additionally, I've managed to get a stick plaster for the continual Forth rail bridge issue by purchasing another barge to use whilst the other is out of action.
Jim the Sunderer said:
It would need to be a lot more of a saving for me to drive around giving kids black lung like an 1805 mine owner.
Also this.Macron said:
Gotcha, Macron!Posting a diesel for our delectation, whatever next.
In fairness, the ad claims it is a 6.0 petrol.
With no shame or dignity remaining, the vendor really should have gone for bulls
t bingo and said it was ex-Coco Chanel.lemansky said:
Macron said:
Gotcha, Macron!Posting a diesel for our delectation, whatever next.
In fairness, the ad claims it is a 6.0 petrol.
With no shame or dignity remaining, the vendor really should have gone for bulls
t bingo and said it was ex-Coco Chanel.Macron said:
Amen to this.
There's enough killing kids in the world for us to avoid adding to the problem.
Burn petrol, save the children.
XJ Sov, AA badges etc, £2k.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2021122307...
That car is everything that's wrong with barging in 2022. It's a total wreck, worth weigh in value only, and yet it's up for £2k.There's enough killing kids in the world for us to avoid adding to the problem.
Burn petrol, save the children.
XJ Sov, AA badges etc, £2k.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2021122307...
Seller can't even be f
ked to crack out the cable ties and bodge that bumper up.The nearly twenty year old 141,000 mile Skoda is a lovely £500 car, you can take a risk on the near certain explosion of that DSG box and tolerate the hopeless performance to economy ratio because it was so cheap for that much metal. Oh wait, it only has one months MOT on it. Oh, and it's THREE THOUSANDS POUNDS.
When that fails to go into drive on the second day you own it you're going to feel a complete and utter spanner having spunked £3,000 on it.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 2nd March 11:56
stickleback123 said:
That car is everything that's wrong with barging in 2022. It's a total wreck, worth weigh in value only, and yet it's up for £2k.
Seller can't even be fked to crack out the cable ties and bodge that bumper up.
The nearly twenty year old 141,000 mile Skoda is a lovely £500 car, you can take a risk on the near certain explosion of that DSG box and tolerate the hopeless performance to economy ratio because it was so cheap for that much metal. Oh wait, it only has one months MOT on it. Oh, and it's THREE THOUSANDS POUNDS.
When that fails to go into drive on the second day you own it you're going to feel a complete and utter spanner having spunked £3,000 on it.
You collect the Skoda when??Seller can't even be f
ked to crack out the cable ties and bodge that bumper up.The nearly twenty year old 141,000 mile Skoda is a lovely £500 car, you can take a risk on the near certain explosion of that DSG box and tolerate the hopeless performance to economy ratio because it was so cheap for that much metal. Oh wait, it only has one months MOT on it. Oh, and it's THREE THOUSANDS POUNDS.
When that fails to go into drive on the second day you own it you're going to feel a complete and utter spanner having spunked £3,000 on it.
Edited by stickleback123 on Wednesday 2nd March 11:56
21st Century Man said:
The appeal of EV for me is the extreme performance and extreme economy. No green advantage whatsoever though, charging in the Midlands It's quite the opposite, they're actually dirty compared to charging in say the North East.
Extreme performance? let's see how your range suffers when you do that. I absolutely laugh at the number of Ev's doing slower than HGV speeds on lane one of motorways. That's progress right? But don't worry, 0-60 is speedy.Extreme economy? What, even with current rising electricity prices? I have a mate in London reliant on public chargers for his Tesla M3 and he tells me it's costing him £40-50 to charge at a fast charger that he visits at 6am so he can charge and then drive to work. Spend £50k on a car and it is costing him MORE than his previous 520d to fuel every week.
These cars are not cheap, the single benefit is lower tailpipe emissions (but not total emissions including manufacturing).
Diesels will be around for a long time yet, just depends on stupid governments as to how long. I read recently that less than 10% of the car driving population can both afford to buy and run an EV AND have somewhere at home to charge it. For these reasons, petrol and diesel cars will not be going away any time soon as the UK investment in charging stations is minimal compared to future desired demand.
I've got a 2015 320 ED in the household. Struggles to do less than 50mpg, over 70mpg possible if you keep it under 70 on the motorway. Has done Berkshire to Edinburgh return on on tank of fuel. Brilliant thing and Euro6 so can drive in most cities. Would be mad to ban cars like this.
W00DY said:
Macron said:
Great ad.stickleback123 said:
The nearly twenty year old 141,000 mile Skoda is a lovely £500 car, you can take a risk on the near certain explosion of that DSG box and tolerate the hopeless performance to economy ratio because it was so cheap for that much metal. Oh wait, it only has one months MOT on it. Oh, and it's THREE THOUSANDS POUNDS.
When that fails to go into drive on the second day you own it you're going to feel a complete and utter spanner having spunked £3,000 on it.
Edited by stickleback123 on Wednesday 2nd March 11:56
sly fox said:
21st Century Man said:
The appeal of EV for me is the extreme performance and extreme economy. No green advantage whatsoever though, charging in the Midlands It's quite the opposite, they're actually dirty compared to charging in say the North East.
Extreme performance? let's see how your range suffers when you do that. I absolutely laugh at the number of Ev's doing slower than HGV speeds on lane one of motorways. That's progress right? But don't worry, 0-60 is speedy.Extreme economy? What, even with current rising electricity prices? I have a mate in London reliant on public chargers for his Tesla M3 and he tells me it's costing him £40-50 to charge at a fast charger that he visits at 6am so he can charge and then drive to work. Spend £50k on a car and it is costing him MORE than his previous 520d to fuel every week.
These cars are not cheap, the single benefit is lower tailpipe emissions (but not total emissions including manufacturing).
Diesels will be around for a long time yet, just depends on stupid governments as to how long. I read recently that less than 10% of the car driving population can both afford to buy and run an EV AND have somewhere at home to charge it. For these reasons, petrol and diesel cars will not be going away any time soon as the UK investment in charging stations is minimal compared to future desired demand.
I've got a 2015 320 ED in the household. Struggles to do less than 50mpg, over 70mpg possible if you keep it under 70 on the motorway. Has done Berkshire to Edinburgh return on on tank of fuel. Brilliant thing and Euro6 so can drive in most cities. Would be mad to ban cars like this.
McGee_22 said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I agree - but those are with current prices, and I'm certain a diesel will get more than 35mpg if your V8 is getting 22mpg! Last time I drove a diesel it got almost exactly 2x the mpg as my LS460. So if you're spending £2170 in fuel now that'd save £1085 per year. If fuel prices rise by 30% that's then over £1400/year. Add in the extra tax etc and then you are at £1600/year or so. It starts to add up. But I guess in the grand scheme of things that's not a huge amount, but it is a fair amount. Add in the differences in servicing costs (more oil, coolant, spark plugs etc) and you are then talking over £2k/year.
I can't see me going electric any time soon, the outlay costs are absurd at the moment and I have no way to charge at my home (no off-street parking) so I'd need to charge elsewhere, where the cost is more per kW and I'd be sitting around waiting for ages.
The mpg figures are around town stuff - my B10 V8 can get over 30 on a motorway run but similarly the 435d of my wifes is getting over 50, maybe 55 on a motorway run. I'm pretty sure the 435d doesn't do 44mpg around town and if it did you'd have a blocked dpf in months rather than years. I would dispute your increased servicing costs of the petrol engine over the diesel as the industry knows diesel are as much if not a little more in ongoing costs as well as the spectre of dpf's for diesels used on short journeys. The extra tax doesn't really catch me as the car is pre-monster tax prices and I would save on Insurance as the car is worth considerably less than a newer car. Small swings and roundabouts but I'm fairly confident in my figures.I can't see me going electric any time soon, the outlay costs are absurd at the moment and I have no way to charge at my home (no off-street parking) so I'd need to charge elsewhere, where the cost is more per kW and I'd be sitting around waiting for ages.
When fuel prices rise the margins increase but I'm still not getting anywhere near replacement electric car outlay in savings. I haven't got £10k to spend on a replacement car let alone £35k for an approved used Tesla or £70,000 for a new BMW.
The trickle down of used electric cars isn't happening for two reasons;
1. The people who can afford them new are enjoying the benefits of 'no' fuel prices and keeping them longer, until...
2. The batteries are in such a condition that they need expensive replacement.
The current almost fixed lifespan of electric cars due to battery life stalls the trickle down economics of electric car run-out and with previous Government subsidies and price discounts for new purchases only it will stay this way - who would buy a 10 year old Tesla/other electric car without a warranty?
There are Model S's with 100's of thousands of miles on the clock with batteries that are still holding over 90% capacity. That doesn't sound too bad at all.
More primative tech in the likes of early Nissan Leafs seems to suffer more but that's why they cost under £5k for something that costs a fraction of the price of a fiesta to run.
lemansky said:
Macron said:
Gotcha, Macron!Posting a diesel for our delectation, whatever next.
In fairness, the ad claims it is a 6.0 petrol.
With no shame or dignity remaining, the vendor really should have gone for bulls
t bingo and said it was ex-Coco Chanel.21st Century Man said:
I take your points. However a mate of mine has an eUp, £1300 down and £130 a month, it's costing £20 a month in leccy compared to £80 a month in petrol. It's a quick little thing too, though range suffers that doesn't really matter tazzing about locally. He's calculated CO2 per Km as similar to a petrol Up as his leccy is dirty, he's not running it to be green anyway though.
Is that a lease or a PCP?ChocolateFrog said:
I don't think the evidence agrees.
There are Model S's with 100's of thousands of miles on the clock with batteries that are still holding over 90% capacity. That doesn't sound too bad at all.
More primative tech in the likes of early Nissan Leafs seems to suffer more but that's why they cost under £5k for something that costs a fraction of the price of a fiesta to run.
Bad luck if you can't charge at home, but if you can the price/performance you get from a Model S (other brands available) makes the noisiests, biggest grilled, most max power styled 21st century paranoia and insecurity oozing ICE mega saloon look positively quaint when it silently puts hundreds of yards on it in seconds when the traffic clears, then settles down to a silent cruise that costs 4p a mile. Unless you've experienced it first hand it's all but impossible to fathom how staggeringly, brutally accelerative a big EV is. It's also quite liberating, I find, to be able to use the performance as frequently as I want without it emptying an 85 litre tank of super unleaded every 180 miles.There are Model S's with 100's of thousands of miles on the clock with batteries that are still holding over 90% capacity. That doesn't sound too bad at all.
More primative tech in the likes of early Nissan Leafs seems to suffer more but that's why they cost under £5k for something that costs a fraction of the price of a fiesta to run.
"Fill it up" at home for £15 or at a supercharger for £25 while you have a cup of coffee and read the news vs £100+ for the same range is a pretty big saving.
As for the repair costs, yes sure eventually the battery pack will wear out and might cost £20k or so to repair (that'll come down, EVs have nothing like the established aftermarket support yet) but in EVs with proper thermal management of the battery pack they seem to be lasting extremely well. Tales of massive bills for ICE barges are hardly few and far between either, and they're almost all done in by 150k anyway, because nobody wants the ticking time bomb of repairs and the 40p a mile fuel costs.
They don't work for everyone, sure, but if they work for you they make a car that needs a wildly complex engine and gearbox to get 2/3rds of the performance at ten times the cost per mile look very stupid. I also find them a wonderful antidote to the blaring flatulent noises every modern car with any hint of performance makes now. There seems to be a real desire among some to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good with EVs; it's no good for absolutely everyones personal use case so it's no good at all.
I'm 90% sure that the same people who piss all over EVs are the same people who would have (or did) grumble about removing lead from petrol, the removal of soot chuckers from city centres, not being able to use asbestos in their kids pillows, and not just being able to pour used engine oil down a storm drain anymore
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 2nd March 12:45
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