EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Archie2050 said:
Likewise.
However, given that EV's are generally more expensive than ICE cars, and all EV drivers have at some point had ICE vehicles (and often still have one or more) why do you think that they consider EV's superior? Ask yourself that. Do you actually have an EV and an ICE car in order to form a truly informed .
Erm I don't think they are superior. You can't assume because someone has an EV it's because they think it's superior. I have one because it's a good option for lots of short journeys that my missus in particular does. In hindsight would I buy another......well I'm not so sure I would. Servicing has not proven cheaper even tough they do little more than a diagnostic on it. A petrol stop / start supermini or similar woukd probably have been just as efficient and def cheaper.However, given that EV's are generally more expensive than ICE cars, and all EV drivers have at some point had ICE vehicles (and often still have one or more) why do you think that they consider EV's superior? Ask yourself that. Do you actually have an EV and an ICE car in order to form a truly informed .
Edited by Archie2050 on Friday 3rd March 14:19
They have a place but let's not pretend they are better and superior because they aren't. Is a vectra estate superior to an Aston martin or lamborghini? Yes if you want to carry a wardrobe but no if you want to go fast.
They are different and can be very useful but are still too expensive to buy new and for families running just 1 car they have too many drawbacks. As a second car then they can make far more sense to many more people.
Longy00000 said:
Archie2050 said:
Likewise.
However, given that EV's are generally more expensive than ICE cars, and all EV drivers have at some point had ICE vehicles (and often still have one or more) why do you think that they consider EV's superior? Ask yourself that. Do you actually have an EV and an ICE car in order to form a truly informed .
Erm I don't think they are superior. You can't assume because someone has an EV it's because they think it's superior. I have one because it's a good option for lots of short journeys that my missus in particular does. In hindsight would I buy another......well I'm not so sure I would. Servicing has not proven cheaper even tough they do little more than a diagnostic on it. A petrol stop / start supermini or similar woukd probably have been just as efficient and def cheaper.However, given that EV's are generally more expensive than ICE cars, and all EV drivers have at some point had ICE vehicles (and often still have one or more) why do you think that they consider EV's superior? Ask yourself that. Do you actually have an EV and an ICE car in order to form a truly informed .
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 3rd March 14:19
They have a place but let's not pretend they are better and superior because they aren't. Is a vectra estate superior to an Aston martin or lamborghini? Yes if you want to carry a wardrobe but no if you want to go fast.
They are different and can be very useful but are still too expensive to buy new and for families running just 1 car they have too many drawbacks. As a second car then they can make far more sense to many more people.
What I am trying to point out is that when someone who has both an EV and a selection of ICE vehicles states quite confidently that the EV has many superior qualities to the ICE then you need to have at least some real world experience of both to doubt them.
For example I went from a Porsche 997 as a daily driver to a KIA EV6. For 95% of the time the KIA is head and shoulders better. The 997 can sit in the garage waiting for the remaining 5% of the time, which will mainly be on sunny Sunday mornings. That the KIA emits less than a quarter of the CO2 is a bonus, but that aside, it's just better.
EV's really have come on a lot, and if you refuse to try them then it's you that is missing out.
OK, I just didn't read your earlier post that way.
I agree anyone running 2 or 3 or more ICE cars could definitely live with an EV as a replacement for 1 of them.
My biggest advisory to a prospective EV owner would be to consider some form of lease, pcp rather than an outright purchase.
The tech is moving on quickly so the car you buy today could be really old tech in 3 or 4 years in terms of range etc. Leave that risk to the finance House so you an option of just handing the keys back and starting again.
This is clearly borne out by the very first post of this thread. Even the used car market dealers don't know if they like them or not. Prices being very volatile over the last month or 2.
I agree anyone running 2 or 3 or more ICE cars could definitely live with an EV as a replacement for 1 of them.
My biggest advisory to a prospective EV owner would be to consider some form of lease, pcp rather than an outright purchase.
The tech is moving on quickly so the car you buy today could be really old tech in 3 or 4 years in terms of range etc. Leave that risk to the finance House so you an option of just handing the keys back and starting again.
This is clearly borne out by the very first post of this thread. Even the used car market dealers don't know if they like them or not. Prices being very volatile over the last month or 2.
Browter said:
GT9 said:
The number varies depending on source of electricity for both battery production and vehicle charging.
For the average EV in the UK in 2020, it estimated at around 20,000-30,000 miles.
In 2030, it will be lower.
And in 2040 it will be lower again.
And finally in 2050 it will also be lower again.
Sound like a good direction to be heading in?
The few reports I've read have never put it as low as 20k - 30k miles. What's your source on that? And right now it's 2023, not 2030 to 2050.For the average EV in the UK in 2020, it estimated at around 20,000-30,000 miles.
In 2030, it will be lower.
And in 2040 it will be lower again.
And finally in 2050 it will also be lower again.
Sound like a good direction to be heading in?
The point I'm making is that an EV bought in 2023 will have a lower footprint in 2030. The same EV.
And the same size EV bought new in 2030 will have an even lower footprint.
This is not a topic that can wrapped up in a single sentence, it is both energy source AND time dependent.
In any case, break-even is a poor way to assess a car's benefit to the environment, because it tells you nothing about the lifetime footprint.
Whoever introduced it as a measure has a lot to answer for.
Sensibly (or surprisingly, depending on your POV) the Government's own report on the topic, commissioned in 2021, and carried out by Ricardo PLC, uses lifetime footprint to compare various drivetrain technologies.
The full 50 page report is available here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
I've extracted the summary graphic:
The CO2 values are in g/km, and the analysis is based on 200,000 km, so for the 2020 petrol car the lifetime footprint is 55 tons.
For the 2020 BEV its under 20 tons.
In 2050, the BEV has dropped to under 8 tons, compared with 41 tons for the ICE.
That's 5 times lower.
And yes, lifetime includes production.
Hard to argue with that unless you go with the 'made-up number's line of argument, in which case, you would surely have a far more credible source.
The summary text that goes with it:
The analysis shows that electric (xEV) powertrains used in UK road vehicles are expected to have significantly lower greenhouse gas (GHG) impacts across all vehicle types. Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) consistently perform better than all other powertrains. Due to the UK’s very clean electricity mix, already in 2020 a typical battery electric car is estimated to save ~65% GHG emissions compared to an equivalent conventional petrol car. Improvements in battery technology, battery manufacturing and end-of-life treatment are projected to significantly reduce the LCA GHG emissions of BEVs in the future. By 2030, BEVs are estimated to deliver a ~76% GHG reduction compared to an equivalent conventional petrol car, due to a combination of improved battery technology and a further decarbonised UK electricity grid. By 2050, these savings could increase to 81%. By 2050 BEV production emissions could reach close to parity with those of conventional vehicles.
There is nothing in that summary that is anything other than a comprehensive outcome that says full electrification is indeed the way forward for passenger cars.
Is it any wonder that's exactly the policy the government is adopting.
Some will say, too many eggs in one basket.
I say, depends on which basket you are looking at.
If it's the whole of transportation, or even broader, the whole of our society, then it's not.
Sector specific solutions make a lot of sense.
And as for the underlying reason why EVs are so much better at decarbonisation for cars than any other drivetrain, this hopefully helps.
If I'm struggling to sleep I'll read this thread. Lies, lies, damn statistics and bulls
t charts...
In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
t charts...In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
jacob-thompson said:
If I'm struggling to sleep I'll read this thread. Lies, lies, damn statistics and bullst charts...
In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
Show me on the doll where the EV touched you.t charts...In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
GT9 said:
jacob-thompson said:
If I'm struggling to sleep I'll read this thread. Lies, lies, damn statistics and bullst charts...
In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
Show me on the doll where the EV touched you.t charts...In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
jacob-thompson said:
GT9 said:
jacob-thompson said:
If I'm struggling to sleep I'll read this thread. Lies, lies, damn statistics and bullst charts...
In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
Show me on the doll where the EV touched you.t charts...In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
They might still vote for it to start from 2035, whenever the vote happens. They might not.
That's not quite the same thing as what you posted, is it?
I understand that it is inconceivable to you that someone can be both a petrolhead and in favour of EVs for the bulk of the mundane stuff.
But there you go, s
t happens.If you hate them so much why are you hanging around all the EVs threads anyway, it's not as if you are posting anything worth reading?
Just tuning back in to what WAS quite an interesting thread about the market for used EVs, but I see that it has been ruined by folk turning it into yet another general debate about EV vs ICE. Shame, as I find the market dynamics quite fascinating.
The Government's plan is presumably to reward hard working company staff with tax breaks on shiny new EVs, which will then trickle down into the used market. Company staff win, plebs win (eventually, when Tesla's are as common on council estates as Insignias are now).
However, private buyers seem unconvinced at the moment, particularly as fuel has dropped back in price and electricity has soared. Add to that the price disparity to an equivalent ICE, general cost-of-living belt-tightening, higher interest rates affecting affordability, plus some wariness about EVs as a used proposition, and its hardly surprising that folk aren't snapping up £40k used EVs at 13% finance. There therefore seems to be a bit of a glut of EVs just as demand has drawn back a bit.
I actually think many punters do want them (relaxing to drive, doing the right thing for the planet, impressing the neighbours etc.), but only if the economics stack up. That suggests to me that used EVs need to at least find parity with ICE equivalents before many people will make the leap. But if EVs shed a lot of value used relative to their high RRPs, that makes new sales difficult as leasing and PCP rates will have to rise. That could slow EV market penetration.
It seems to me that the Government has a bit more work to do if it wants to meet its legally binding emissions targets. The question is, will that be carrots for EV buyers, or sticks for ICE drivers.
The Government's plan is presumably to reward hard working company staff with tax breaks on shiny new EVs, which will then trickle down into the used market. Company staff win, plebs win (eventually, when Tesla's are as common on council estates as Insignias are now).
However, private buyers seem unconvinced at the moment, particularly as fuel has dropped back in price and electricity has soared. Add to that the price disparity to an equivalent ICE, general cost-of-living belt-tightening, higher interest rates affecting affordability, plus some wariness about EVs as a used proposition, and its hardly surprising that folk aren't snapping up £40k used EVs at 13% finance. There therefore seems to be a bit of a glut of EVs just as demand has drawn back a bit.
I actually think many punters do want them (relaxing to drive, doing the right thing for the planet, impressing the neighbours etc.), but only if the economics stack up. That suggests to me that used EVs need to at least find parity with ICE equivalents before many people will make the leap. But if EVs shed a lot of value used relative to their high RRPs, that makes new sales difficult as leasing and PCP rates will have to rise. That could slow EV market penetration.
It seems to me that the Government has a bit more work to do if it wants to meet its legally binding emissions targets. The question is, will that be carrots for EV buyers, or sticks for ICE drivers.
GT9 said:
jacob-thompson said:
GT9 said:
jacob-thompson said:
If I'm struggling to sleep I'll read this thread. Lies, lies, damn statistics and bullst charts...
In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
Show me on the doll where the EV touched you.t charts...In other news EU ICE ban delayed indefinitely... Who'd a thunk it...
https://www.politico.eu/article/approval-of-eus-20...
No idea why EV fanatics need to be cult members but there you go, the whole net zero nonsense clearly has a darker undertone...
They might still vote for it to start from 2035, whenever the vote happens. They might not.
That's not quite the same thing as what you posted, is it?
I understand that it is inconceivable to you that someone can be both a petrolhead and in favour of EVs for the bulk of the mundane stuff.
But there you go, s
t happens.If you hate them so much why are you hanging around all the EVs threads anyway, it's not as if you are posting anything worth reading?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/03/ft...
I must say it is utterly superb news, almost as if what some had predicted re the German car industry vs net zero b
ks is playing out perfectly...2030 UK deadline, to be kicked into the long grass ? Didn't someone predict that already ?
jacob-thompson said:
Why does my posting this article irritate you so much? Even the Telegraph has reported it now...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/03/ft...
I must say it is utterly superb news, almost as if what some had predicted re the German car industry vs net zero bks is playing out perfectly...
2030 UK deadline, to be kicked into the long grass ? Didn't someone predict that already ?
There is a separate thread running to discuss the 'news', you'll want to scurry on over there as you are already a bit late to the party.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/03/ft...
I must say it is utterly superb news, almost as if what some had predicted re the German car industry vs net zero b
ks is playing out perfectly...2030 UK deadline, to be kicked into the long grass ? Didn't someone predict that already ?
In your exuberance to stick it to the EV lot, you've not even read the article.
There is no lifting of the ban on fossil-fuelled cars.
The Germans and Italians are seeking a reprieve for climate-neutral fuels to be permitted for use in a very small percentage of new cars after the 2035 ban comes in force.
This is essentially to protect halo sports car model from Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.
It means the square root of nothing to 'normal' ICE drivers.
GT9 said:
There is a separate thread running to discuss the 'news', you'll want to scurry on over there as you are already a bit late to the party.
In your exuberance to stick it to the EV lot, you've not even read the article.
There is no lifting of the ban on fossil-fuelled cars.
The Germans and Italians are seeking a reprieve for climate-neutral fuels to be permitted for use in a very small percentage of new cars after the 2035 ban comes in force.
This is essentially to protect halo sports car model from Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.
It means the square root of nothing to 'normal' ICE drivers.
Doesn't that news piece also say they have abandoned for now, the harder to achieve emissions standards (Euro 7)? It's not just a decision to set a hard date for ICE, it's a decision to not implement the standards the car manufacturers are refusing to build cars under.In your exuberance to stick it to the EV lot, you've not even read the article.
There is no lifting of the ban on fossil-fuelled cars.
The Germans and Italians are seeking a reprieve for climate-neutral fuels to be permitted for use in a very small percentage of new cars after the 2035 ban comes in force.
This is essentially to protect halo sports car model from Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.
It means the square root of nothing to 'normal' ICE drivers.
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff