EVs... no one wants them!

[moktabe]

otolith said:

moktabe said:

otolith said:

moktabe said:

Might be an idea to mail someone in China with your ideological thoughts on carbon neutral fuel....or doesn't the wind blow this way from China?

https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/chinas-n...

They're aware of it.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-ene...

Ah, so that makes it all better does it?

They are moving rapidly to renewables - faster than anyone else - while trying to keep the lights on and being the world's factory.

https://www.iea.org/news/massive-expansion-of-rene...

IEA said:

The amount of renewable energy capacity added to energy systems around the world grew by 50% in 2023, reaching almost 510 gigawatts (GW), with solar PV accounting for three-quarters of additions worldwide, according to Renewables 2023, the latest edition of the IEA’s annual market report on the sector. The largest growth took place in China, which commissioned as much solar PV in 2023 as the entire world did in 2022, while China’s wind power additions rose by 66% year-on-year. The increases in renewable energy capacity in Europe, the United States and Brazil also hit all-time highs.

Moving toward renewables faster than anyone else whilst building coal fired plants faster than anyone else.

Yup, that adds up.

[DonkeyApple]

moktabe said:

Moving toward renewables faster than anyone else whilst building coal fired plants faster than anyone else.

Yup, that adds up.

The coal fired plants are the back up to the renewable sites. They're absolutely essential to supplying a constant delivery of power to the factories making all the ste that Fat Barry in Cleethorpes demands every day.

If the Chinese were to be late delivering Fat Barry's latest purchase of a trouser press with built in prostate massager then Barry is absolutely going to lose his st and be straight into his local MO with his best compo face and probably drag his heffer of a partner along.

The key being that these plants aren't running all the time and when they do it's it's to serve Fat Barry's all across the West and their insatiable demand for ste to be shoved through their letter box. Plus, they don't have oil and kind of logically don't want to be having to trombone Uncle Sam every five minutes to get some delivered.

[Unreal]

DonkeyApple said:

moktabe said:

Moving toward renewables faster than anyone else whilst building coal fired plants faster than anyone else.

Yup, that adds up.

The coal fired plants are the back up to the renewable sites. They're absolutely essential to supplying a constant delivery of power to the factories making all the ste that Fat Barry in Cleethorpes demands every day.

If the Chinese were to be late delivering Fat Barry's latest purchase of a trouser press with built in prostate massager then Barry is absolutely going to lose his st and be straight into his local MO with his best compo face and probably drag his heffer of a partner along.

The key being that these plants aren't running all the time and when they do it's it's to serve Fat Barry's all across the West and their insatiable demand for ste to be shoved through their letter box. Plus, they don't have oil and kind of logically don't want to be having to trombone Uncle Sam every five minutes to get some delivered.

Is that code for this little charade is all our fault?

[ChocolateFrog]

raspy said:

D4rez said:

If they’ve worked out that they need to put the focus on better battery tech to deliver 4-500 miles of range without making the cars look like a bar of soap then great. Oh and reducing prices by carrying less R&D burden then great. A brand new EV platform every 5 years is a hiding to ruin almost regardless of commercial performance

What we’re seeing right now in 2024 is the output of engineering thinking/largesse of 2020 with a 2021/2022 pricing approach. When that lot meets today’s interest rates, price war and demand blip it’s not pretty. They need to make good cars with reasonable prices - the EQE starts at about £75k for an E class..,

You hit the nail on the head. Even someone from MB admitted that EQS/EQE sold lower than they expected because people didn't like the design (which was aerodynamics driven for range)

I'm looking forward to getting an EQS for a bag of crisps in a few years time.

Couldn't you spec an EQE to well over £150k?

That's a niche, within a niche, within a niche.

If they've sold more than a hundred of the >£100k ones I'd be surprised.

[irc]

DonkeyApple said:

The coal fired plants are the back up to the renewable sites. They're absolutely essential to supplying a constant delivery of power to the factories making all the ste that Fat Barry in Cleethorpes demands every day.

If the Chinese were to be late delivering Fat Barry's latest purchase of a trouser press with built in prostate massager then Barry is absolutely going to lose his st and be straight into his local MO with his best compo face and probably drag his heffer of a partner along.

The key being that these plants aren't running all the time and when they do it's it's to serve Fat Barry's all across the West and their insatiable demand for ste to be shoved through their letter box. Plus, they don't have oil and kind of logically don't want to be having to trombone Uncle Sam every five minutes to get some delivered.

So why is it OK for China to run coal as backup but we had to close our coal power down?

[Olivera]

ChocolateFrog said:

Couldn't you spec an EQE to well over £150k?

That's a niche, within a niche, within a niche.

If they've sold more than a hundred of the >£100k ones I'd be surprised.

I suspect this is a general problem, with EVs (and also ICE to a certain extent) manufacturers have all chased more expensive models with higher margins. The array of 50-100k+ EVs is absolutely vast. Ford with the Mustang EV, Lotus with the Eletre, all of the Hyundai EVs pushing 50k+, IX, EQ, eTron, and on and on - there simply isn't enough buyers for all of these models, which results in epic depreciation.

[BricktopST205]

confused_buyer said:

I'm not sure European manufacturers are too keen on tariffs. Most of them make most of their profits in China and China will most probably retaliate.

Yeah legacy vehicle manufacturers are basically buggered (Parts suppliers/peoples jobs and livelyhoods are already threatened) if things continue but what will happen instead is a lot of brown envelopes will happen and the 2035 mandate will get pushed back if not scrapped. Public uptake and trust of EV's will be completely ruined and it will just collapse.

Lets face it the uptake of EV's in this country at least is not natural and only because of potential savings through salary sacrifice. Government doesn't want to give grants so it is basically dead in the water already.

I mean it is not the first time governments have gone back huge expensive failings. (Looks at HS2)

[ruggedscotty]

BricktopST205 said:

confused_buyer said:

I'm not sure European manufacturers are too keen on tariffs. Most of them make most of their profits in China and China will most probably retaliate.

Yeah legacy vehicle manufacturers are basically buggered (Parts suppliers/peoples jobs and livelyhoods are already threatened) if things continue but what will happen instead is a lot of brown envelopes will happen and the 2035 mandate will get pushed back if not scrapped. Public uptake and trust of EV's will be completely ruined and it will just collapse.

Lets face it the uptake of EV's in this country at least is not natural and only because of potential savings through salary sacrifice. Government doesn't want to give grants so it is basically dead in the water already.

I mean it is not the first time governments have gone back huge expensive failings. (Looks at HS2)

Wishful thinking that, thing is were on the electric road, the government will be pushing the electric way, and as its so wide spread its now gone beyond the point of no return.

[MightyBadger]

Making more coal run powerstations isn't a new thing in China, when I worked there in 2005 they were throwing them up left, right and centre at fast pace.

[DonkeyApple]

Unreal said:

Is that code for this little charade is all our fault?

More a suggestion that it's worth not forgetting that the West sent all its arse end manufacturing to Asia because consumers were demanding cheaper and stter and when subsequently wanting to observe how naughty the Chinese are we should not forget our role in this.

We should also consider just why it is we rush to condemn one nation for its pollution but not another. China is still the silver medalist so why do we completely ignore both the long term gold medal winner, the US and the bronze medal holder, India who will be smashing both China and the US by the end of next decade if not before? Why China?

Logically, if we look at which of the big three, let's include Europe and say four, largest tat manufacturing bases on the planet, given that China is cleaning up more rapidly than the others and the US may even be entering a reversal then should we not be favouring China as it's going to be the least polluting?

I do sometimes wonder if there aren't some Western entities that are actively lobbying against the Chinese because they've been lazy are uncompetitive and want us all to pay more for our goods than we need to do as to cover their mistakes. Where is all VW's vast lobbying cash getting lobbed at the moment? It can't all be going to local far right groups and developing nation dictators?

[CheesecakeRunner]

irc said:

So why is it OK for China to run coal as backup but we had to close our coal power down?

It's not in the grand scheme of things.

But here's the thing; not all countries are the same. We can run without coal now, China can't. Just because someone else doesn't do something, doesn't mean that its an excuse for us not to if we can.

[LowTread]

Reasons i like my Model 3 Long Range:

1. instant torque off the line (i'm clearly still a child)
2. smoothness and no gearbox shuffling around
3. it's an overtaking weapon
4. it's so quiet round town!
5. it drives really nicely with pointy steering, a thick wheel, and a low driving position
6. i like the idea that it's helping the UK reach energy independence someday...maybe?
7. i don't have a fuel budget every month anymore, i just pay octopus an extra £20/month
8. i have my own filling station at home and the car is never on empty when i get in it
9. warming/cooling it before i get in it is a surprising bonus!
10. the kids love it and think i'm an eco hero (i'm not)
11. 99% of the time i don't have to stop for "fuel" as i rarely do over 200-250 miles/day
12. some stuff about CO2 that might be true, or might not, depending on the way the wind blows

There are probably more.

CO2 and eco stuff is pretty low on the list.

And if the cost/mile was the same as something with similar power but ICE i'd still go for the Model 3 as it does things those cars can't, such as refuelling at home, smoothness, quietness, etc, etc.

[confused_buyer]

ChocolateFrog said:

Going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think European makers with the exception of luxury brands (and I'm not talking about BMW, Merc and Audi) can essentially write-off making and selling cars in Europe if there are no tariffs.

Yep the likes of Stellantis, VW etc all have huge operations in China. On top of that they are currently relying on bringing in a lot of stuff from China to make their cars.

They also make quite a few cars in China sold in Europe- Citroen do, for example, and punitive tariffs will cause big problems for Volvo (EX30 made in China), Renault/Dacia (bye bye bargain Dacia Springs) etc. not to mention Tesla.

Frankly, take out Chinese made cars and profits European manufacturers make in China it all looks a bit stuffed.

[DonkeyApple]

irc said:

So why is it OK for China to run coal as backup but we had to close our coal power down?

Who said it was OK? No one has.

Why did we close ours down? Because it was loss making and not needed as we were self sufficient in nat gas and are steadily moving to replace that with renewables with nat gas being the fallback. China has coal it can use as a fallback. We have nat gas, which was cheaper than the coal we had left.

The U.K. can also choose to remove coal emissions from our net zero balance sheet rather than closing down industry. So that was a rather obvious choice.

How long are China going to retain domestic coal as their energy backbone? How long will the US use their control of the oil economy as a weapon over other countries? Including the U.K.

And what about exhaust scrubbing technology? Which exhaust is easier to scrub? 500m car exhausts or a few thousand fossil fuel power stations? For some nations the only way to remove vehicle CO2 is to move its production from cars to centralised fossil fuel power stations where it can be scrubbed as well as be produced more efficiently.

[KingGary]

moktabe said:

SWoll said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

MightyBadger said:

Maracus said:

loudlashadjuster said:

otolith said:

MrBogSmith said:

I guess if EVs can crack the “drive across Europe aimlessly” appeal, they manufacturers will be on to a winner.

While towing a boat.

At 180 km/h

Non stop for 7 hours.

With radio and a/c on full blast the whole way

At -20 degrees.

Uphill for the entire journey.

But surely the driver of said EV would have to pull over to type on here how good their choice of car is?

Also how they've managed to do the whole journey for the grand sum of £3.75.

Edited by moktabe on Tuesday 14th May 12:15

….whilst reassuring themselves that planning their journey around where their car will run out of electricity is personal choice.

[nickfrog]

LowTread said:

Reasons i like my Model 3 Long Range:

1. instant torque off the line (i'm clearly still a child)
2. smoothness and no gearbox shuffling around
3. it's an overtaking weapon
4. it's so quiet round town!
5. it drives really nicely with pointy steering, a thick wheel, and a low driving position
6. i like the idea that it's helping the UK reach energy independence someday...maybe?
7. i don't have a fuel budget every month anymore, i just pay octopus an extra £20/month
8. i have my own filling station at home and the car is never on empty when i get in it
9. warming/cooling it before i get in it is a surprising bonus!
10. the kids love it and think i'm an eco hero (i'm not)
11. 99% of the time i don't have to stop for "fuel" as i rarely do over 200-250 miles/day
12. some stuff about CO2 that might be true, or might not, depending on the way the wind blows

There are probably more.

CO2 and eco stuff is pretty low on the list.

And if the cost/mile was the same as something with similar power but ICE i'd still go for the Model 3 as it does things those cars can't, such as refuelling at home, smoothness, quietness, etc, etc.

Yeah but you're not a real petrol head or an enthusiastic driver

[BricktopST205]

KingGary said:

….whilst reassuring themselves that planning their journey around where their car will run out of electricity is personal choice.

Then they get on the Autobahn and realise there is a road closure and 50 mile diversion due to an accident and then go "oh st".

[Maracus]

BricktopST205 said:

KingGary said:

….whilst reassuring themselves that planning their journey around where their car will run out of electricity is personal choice.

Then they get on the Autobahn and realise there is a road closure and 50 mile diversion due to an accident and then go "oh st".

The same with petrol or diesel if you are running low. No difference.

[Longy00000]

I love this thread there really is an awful lot of eco clap trap on here.

Anyone who truly believes China is an eco saviour is simply mad. Go buy a ticket to china, take some pictures and share the reality with us.

I'm aware of a few videos now starting to appear showing the real eco credentials of China v their claimed and published data.
If i can be arsed to dig them out I might post links or you could just do it yourselves.

[KingGary]

LowTread said:

Reasons i like my Model 3 Long Range:

5. it drives really nicely with pointy steering, a thick wheel, and a low driving position

1. instant torque off the line (i'm clearly still a child)

I think you’ve answered your own question.