BMW M140i vs Golf R. Which is best for Britain and tuning?

[Dylanaledhall]

Hi guys,

This has probably been a topic that's been discussed in length but I want some more opinions.
I'm currently building a stage 3 Fiesta ST which will be around the 300-340bhp range. I haven't quite finished yet but I know there will be a day where I decide to move on and progress into something better.
The 2 cars I'm considering are in the title which are a BMW M140i and a Golf R (Mk7)

I know both cars have their advantages and disadvantages. For example the BMW has that lovely 3 litre B58 lump and rear wheel drive but will the rear wheel drive become a pain to live with as I would plan on tuning both cars. Meanwhile the Golf R will put the power down far easier on a British road and the Golf ( in my opinion) is the better looking car of the two. The only disadvantage of the Golf R is the fact it has been described as being "dull" to drive. Although it won't sound as good as the BMW it isn't a deal breaker for me personally.

The plan with both cars as I've said would be to tune them, I'm aware on a stage 2 a Golf R will go past 400bhp and the M140i can reach about 450. I just want to know if anyone has moved from a Golf R to an M140i or moved from a M140i to a Golf R and your reasons why. I'd love to know your thoughts.
Thanks guys

[Dylanaledhall]

16v stretch said:

Whichever you fancy.

There's plenty of rwd cars with more power that manage just fine, drive to the conditions and you won't have an issue. If you're the type of guy to mash the throttle in the wet, you'd probably be better with the Golf R.

That's true, there are more powerful rwd cars. I live in South Wales so it's raining basically 80% of the time so I'm trying to balance which one would be better. My Father has a Mk3 Focus RS and the way that accelerates no matter the weather boggles my mind to be honest

[Dylanaledhall]

Magnum 475 said:

I’d say M140i. BUT, before you thinking of adding power, start by adding a decent LSD, and a working on the suspension. The standard car is great, but with some choice suspension upgrades & LSD it becomes brilliant.

Yeah I've heard they need an LSD and lowering springs. The M140i is THE car I want I just need to consider the Golf R because a majority of people say how good they are at absolutely everything and it is 'the perfect daily'

[Dylanaledhall]

SDM94 said:

I bought a new S3 tail-end of 2017 and only kept it 14 months. It is a quick point-to-point car and can shift well in any conditions but it’s just a but bland. I swapped it for a new M140i in 2019 and loved it straight away. The B58 is a fantastic engine and gave fuel economy almost on par with the S3. Yes the RWD needs some respect especially without the LSD. I never felt like it needed more power but rather some handling mods to tighten it up a bit. There’s some really well spec’d cars available at good prices given the overall performance. I would’ve still had mine but due to a change of circumstances, it was traded in last week.

Thank you, this was massively useful cause I'm looking for people that have progressed into an M140i from a Golf R ( or Audi S3 in your case). I think bang for buck they can't be beaten at the moment

[Dylanaledhall]

QuattroDave said:

Ex M140i owner myself and without doubt it won't be as quick on country roads as standard as the passive suspension is far from good but the relatively short wheelbase, rwd, 6pot noise and 'lively' nature of the car make it far more fun. Oh an when in no hurry that engine with the 8AT can easily achieve 50mpg on a run (if that's a consideration!)

My next door neighbour loved mine so much he bought one himself and had it tuned to 440hp, it was lively alright!

I find the VW 4pot fart nothing short of pathetic but then I've never liked Golfs so maybe don't listen to me!

Yeah the engine is a peach to be fair, it is really powerful but as mentioned it can return decent mpg. It is a consideration to me to be honest as I do a lot of motorway miles.

It's definitely a car I'd need to get used to as I've only really driven FWD cars. I'd want to get an LSD on there asap to help out that rear end .

[Dylanaledhall]

Limpet said:

This, all day long. I've never understood the thinking behind adding power to these without addressing the diff and suspension.

The B58 is a fantastic thing, even factory standard.

Definitely something to consider, especially with how fast an M140i can become with minimal modifications. I'm currently building my ST but I haven't sorted a front diff yet but it definitely needs one. I know an M140i is a completely different beast but if I was to get an M140i I'd only go to stage 1 without the diff, wouldn't go stage 2 without it.

[Dylanaledhall]

mr momo said:

Depends on the type of roads, weather and how big your cohones are.

Mainly A&B roads here can be of variable surface quality, dodgy in autumn and treacherous in winter, so the R was brilliant. A set of decent all-weather/winters should make the RWD BMW strong too.

Something I need to get out of my head is the fact I'm not going to be hooning it everywhere I go. So I doubt if the lack of AWD will impede progress that much. I think the BMW will require a more "mature" approach and more skill to drive quickly so this is the debate I'm having with myself

Edited by Dylanaledhall on Thursday 21st January 22:22

[Dylanaledhall]

Toltec said:

An lsd on a rwd car doesn't do what it appears you think it does. They allow you to get more power down were one wheel has less traction than the other. Up to the point you overwhelm both tyres and things get exciting much more quickly than if you had an open diff with one wheel spinning.

Fair enough if you leave the TC on it may sort that out, but an lsd doesn't make a car less lairy, it is there to make it faster.

Apologies if I read your posts incorrectly, it just seemed like you thought an lsd on rwd did the same dynamically as on a fwd. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't fit one

Yeah sorry maybe I didn't make it that clear. I know a RWD car is always going to act like a RWD car no matter the weather, road surface or tires. I do hear an LSD will make the rear of a car like an M140i more predictable and controllable which is what I would be after only trouble is, the fact LSDs are massively expensive , especially for the M140i. I guess this is why so many people avoid this modification

Edited by Dylanaledhall on Thursday 21st January 23:01

[Dylanaledhall]

Greg the Fish said:

If you want one to devastate your wallet before you even start 'tuning' it. Get the BM

If you want your house burgled and a knife held to your throat for a set of car keys. Get the Golf.

Hope that helps.

Get a Dodge Charger and play with that. Will be more fun.

Golf Rs are stolen regularly aren't they?

As for me a charger isn't really up my street. I think it would be a bit too heavy and I think the Golf and the M140 will be a lot easier and cheaper to tune ( just my opinion). Plus I think the running of a decent charger will be way more than the other two. But yet again, haven't owned one so can't really give a detailed answer

[Dylanaledhall]

J4CKO said:

You need to drive one, you seem to be getting ahead of yourself talking about tuning an M140 them to 450 or more bhp but would drive one before you get too carried away with it.

Try not to fixate too much on power numbers, I have done that in the past and you can end up getting the wrong car. A 500 bhp One series is cool but I realised after a remap it was quick enough at 360 ish, it piles on speed as fast as I would ever want really, had a go in a 450 bhp M140i and it just seemed to spin even more and I decided not to bother doing any more to mine.

As I have said in the other thread, have lent my M135i to my son and he likes it, but he doesn't want one having spent some time with it, he took a mate out who fancies one who said he couldn't be arsed with the squirming about when its cold and damp having been in it.

I would say get a manual one, or at least try the auto as I find it frustrating when trying to drive it spiritedly, I had plans for it but decided it was not a keeper, maybe if it had been manual but not with the auto, you may love it but if you like the ST I think you may find it a bit meh once you get past the sheer shove. I did think of doing the suspension and fitting an LSD but will just buy something else.

I would suggest a Golf R over the BMW to be honest, but would also suggest a Civic Type R, Hyundai I30N, Cayman or leave it a bit longer and get and M2, just dont think if you love a modded ST that you will take to an M140i easily, might be wrong but do get a decent go in one.

Hey J4CKO, didn't expect to see you here, surely you're fed up of me by now?

Yeah I completely get where you're coming from, and to be honest I'm not really that bothered about the numbers cause the both cars will act completely different to each other. I just like a bit of a project and seeing where I could get an M140i to would be something to keep me busy

Again, I do need to try both, I definitely could prefer the Golf R but having seen so many people go from Golf to M140 ( or M135) there must be a reason.
As for other contenders I think I'll be looking at cars that aren't FWD as I've had FWD all my life and just want something different. I do like the M2, it's just the fact it doesn't have the B58 and is so much more expensive does kind of put me off. I know it's a proper M car but like I said in an earlier reply I'm not going to be hooning all day so most of the time It would make no difference whether I was in an M140 or an M2, definitely wouldn't be against having a go of an M2 though, plus they look the business

[Dylanaledhall]

J4CKO said:

The M Cars fix the shortcomings to a point, even though the standard M2 isnt actually any quicker in a straight line as an M140i, sometimes they get beat, especially if the M140i has a remap, but neither are slow, but the M2 is the one that gets a better rating as a drivers car, not driven one though but based on all the info thats what I have gleaned. There is a reason they were more expensive.

Power is cheap and plentiful these days, the fact its relatively cos effective to tune a Fiesta to 350 bhp or more attests to that, if someone had said to me that a Fiestas would have that much power back when the XR2 was about (90 bhp) I would have thought they were mental. It seems almost commonplace but that knocking on Supercar territory from then, not far off a Lotus Carlton and half a ton lighter.

Yeah I know the M140i won't feel the same as an M2 but I do think the M140i offers really good value as you say, it can keep up with an M2 and sometimes beats them ( obviously depending on modifications).

Yeah I can't wait for my Fiesta to be done. Just got the new splitter fitted today and while I was there my tuner was looking at pricing up some new brakes for me ( just until I upgrade to a Big Brake Kit). But I think 340bhp will be more than enough in a little Fiesta, especially for everyday use.

[Dylanaledhall]

Driver101 said:

The Golf was the cheapest hot hatch to PCP or lease, then the M140i was the cheapest.

Oh yeah that's true, I remember people mentioning that. Thanks

[Dylanaledhall]

JD said:

I went from a 2017 S3 (310hp 7 speed one) into a current M140i.

I preferred the Audi.

The 140i is a great engine but everything else about it isn’t that good. Mine has standard suspension not adaptive and it rides poorly and I find the driving experience on a cold wet day frustrating at best.

Did you just prefer the ability to put the power down no matter what? Also, did you think the Audi was a better daily ? Thanks

[Dylanaledhall]

Ozone said:

I went from an M135i to a Golf R, for me;

The Golf is a practical, competent, fast car - a car for your head.
The M135i is a fun, nice sounding, fast, drivers car - a car for your heart.

I did have some bd scrotes try to take the 135 from me in a car park one night.

They are both good, it just comes down to your preference.

My personal preference would definitely be the M140, however, the looks of the Golf and the all weather ability is very appealing to me.

[Dylanaledhall]

Bennet said:

If I lived in South Wales (rather than the suburbs of Manchester), there is no way I would be wasting my driving life with modern hot hatches. I would go older and buy something with feel so you can maximise your enjoyment of the actual driving. Since you obviously have money and you enjoy modification and you want 4wd, Subarus or Mitsubishi EVOs come to mind.

Every idiot with money drives a fast German whatever. And it seems to me like every review of every modern fast car (short of something like a Lotus) complains that it lacks engagement.

You mentioned driving skill earlier, but I doubt that either of the cars you are choosing between takes much skill to drive quickly at all provided that you keep it below the level of utter, utter tool.

Sorry for the thread hijack. Just my opinion.

Disclaimer: I haven't driven either of them.
Disclaimer to the disclaimer: I'm probably still right though.

Thing is, I am a bit of a moron

But no please don't apologise for the 'hijack' I started this thread to get opinions so the more the merrier to be honest.

I would love an Evo I just think they're at that age ( especially evo 8 and evo 9) of needing so much attention to things like the undercarriage and other things that can go wrong with an older car. Above that, I need something I can daily easily and I just think an Evo would cost so much to run it would be painful. I know people have managed 40mpg in an M140i, you'd be lucky to see even half of that in an Evo. I think they are proper driver's cars, it's just I think that they will cost more to maintain than it's worth ( just my opinion of course) .

[Dylanaledhall]

Toltec said:

I'm not suggesting you buy one, however you should try driving a Cayman, GT86, mx-5 or lotus. Just to get an idea what a rwd car can feel like. Similarly Subaru, Evo and GR Yaris for 4wd.

I know they are not what you want power/tuning/value wise, but they will give you an idea how they can compare to fwd and a yardstick for trying a 140i and Golf.

Good plan. My Grandfather used to have a Lotus Elise I just never got to drive it unfortunately
As for trying AWD / 4WD my father has a Mk3 Focus RS so I can go drive that whenever too

[Dylanaledhall]

thelostboy said:

I would agree the M140i is about the engine. It does not feel like an M car in any other respect. Perfectly nice, and I feel a more upmarket place to sit than a Golf R, but otherwise it was just another 1 Series.

Certainly it is rapid too. A friend had one when I had an RS6 Performance and we had to do silly speeds to notice a difference.

One of my dailies is now a MK7.5 Golf R and I think it is great; lots of low down shove and the ride and handling balance is well judged (although mine has ACC, not sure what the regular setup is like). It's great to have the security of 4WD given how miserable our weather is, and point to point it is undoubtedly the faster car.

I also don't understand the comments about it being dull either. In the recent weather I found the chassis is adjustable - it will rotate and you can feel the 4WD working. I had a MK6 Golf R years ago and, in comparison, that simply felt like a FWD which didn't run out of grip.

Hi there, thank you so much for the insight, was really helpful As for the "dull" comments I can't really judge as I haven't driven one, I think what people mean is the fact he Golf is so refined and so good at doing everything it maybe lacking personality in some people's opinions. Undoubtedly an amazing car though, just does everything so well.

[Dylanaledhall]

ScoobyChris said:

I run an M140 and the big thing that lets it down for me are the MPSS which only really work in dry, warm weather. I invested in some winter tyres for the colder/wetter months and they let me continue to enjoy and push the car. I'll be replacing the MPSS (year 4 and I've just managed to wear out the rears!) with some PS4s which I hear are much more suited to UK weather.

When I was buying it, I also looked at Golf R, GTi, S3 and Focus ST but the BMW won out for me as it felt the most alive to drive. I did prefer the manual on the test drive, but opted for the auto and don't regret that decision.

FWIW, my neighbour has just picked up his new M2 Comp so once it's run in, I'll be blagging a ride in it for comparison.

Chris

That would be awesome if you could compare the 140 and an M2. Definitely let me know how it goes

I'd definitely be investing in decent rubber, trust me

[Dylanaledhall]

J4CKO said:

I had a MK1 TT for a bit and the 4WD was quite compelling, launching it on packed snow was fun,I know its not proper whatever and TT not drivers car but I quite liked it, just broke a bit too much as was old and neglected, think it had either 12 or 15 owners

I think a lot buy an M140 for say 20 ish grand, then the spending starts to address all the shortcomings and add more power, couple of grand on tuning, couple of grand on suspension, couple of grand on an LSD, bit on cosmetic mods and its easy to lavish say 5 to 10 grand no problem, hmm, what can you buy for 25 to 30 grand.....


https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010195...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009113...


Can add all the power you want in isolation but you end up with the car equivalent of Bradley Wiggins riding a Raleigh Chopper (A bicycle from olden times that wasn't very good at being a bicycle) even at standard power they struggle a bit.

Not saying its pointless tuning them as some prefer the hatch, like the tuning aspect or dont have the cash for a M4 etc in one go but it probably works out cheaper in the long run and you get a more rounded package.

I do love the thought of an M4, they would just have to depreciate a bit more before I'd go for one. They just don't have the B58 sound although an M4 will 100% be a better car to drive. Again, I'm not done with my Fiesta yet so I'll wait a year or two before making a decision

[Dylanaledhall]

culpz said:

Usual RWD vs AWD benefits. Golf for it's all-weather ability, BMW for it's playful rear. Both are nice places to sit and great daily-drivers. They're also both easily tuneable. I'd probably go with the M140i, as the B58 engine and the ZF8 gearbox are fantastic and it's going to become a rare layout. I'd also say that it'll probably be a bit more fun and engaging. That being said, the EA888 with the DSG is a very good combo too.

However, neither will be anywhere near as fun as the Fiesta, IMO.

I do love mum little Fiesta I must admit

Yeah the M140i has that uniqueness that I don't think we'll ever see again, a 3.0 six cylinder RWD hatchback. A strange combo but I think definitely works. I'd personally go for the ZF and not the manual just because ( and I'm going off other's opinions) the manuals can be a bit notchy and I'd prefer the 8 speed because I do a lot of motorway miles