Labour to nationalise Tesla Superchargers
Discussion
cc3 said:
I am happy to pay thousands in tax but I won’t pay it to the anti Semitic Marxists who want to run our country.
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
kuro68k said:
cc3 said:
I am happy to pay thousands in tax but I won’t pay it to the anti Semitic Marxists who want to run our country.
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
kuro68k said:
cc3 said:
I am happy to pay thousands in tax but I won’t pay it to the anti Semitic Marxists who want to run our country.
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
Take an SME. Employs 240 people, but is expanding. If they get to 250 employees 10% of their shares will be confiscated, workers put onto the Board, and the dividends handed out to the employees, up to 500 quid each per year. If by any remote chance the company keeps it’s head above water at that point, any surplus dividends go direct to the state. So what are they going to do? Stay put at 240 employees.
Take another, employing 300. What are they going to do, to protect their company? Exactly. 51 redundancies, contractors, separate ltd co, whatever it takes to avoid being robbed by the state.
Take a huge company. Openreach. That will be nationalised. Shares will be exchanged, as I understand it, either for bonds which will not produce the returns shares potentially could, or for cash at a cutprice rate set by the state. Either option is legalised theft. Who owns the shares? Not me, not you, but our pension companies. And I’m talking worldwide. These massive investors aren’t idiots – ukplc shares will be dropped like a hot potato on 13th December. Your pension will, if not fail, certainly underperform. FTSE will go through the floor in hours. We are traditionally an intelligently run ‘strong and stable’ economy. That’s how we flog our govt bonds. Start the printing presses as Labour are suggesting and those bonds will be worth zip.
Nailing amazon or ebay is like nailing jelly to a wall. Not saying it isn’t possible, or necessary, but it’d be hard work trying. These companies won’t take this lying down.
Corp tax - it is low for a reason. It encourages investment, both foreign and domestic. Add a third to it, and global investment will pack it’s bags and go elsewhere.
Dividend tax will be brought in line with income tax. That basically means one of the benefits of running a company rather than being employed is removed. So why bother?
Entrepreneurs relief will be removed. Another benefit of running a ltd co is removed. So why bother?
Minimum wage up from seven or eight quid to a tenner. Lovely. 18 year old new starter now on over 20k a year. But what about the 30 year old who used to be on ten quid? They’ll now want twelve quid. Your coffee/food/car service has just had 20-30% added to it’s labour costs. That’s called inflation. Instant inflation. See south America for details.
Add the corp tax increase, removal of the tax benefits above, add in the 10% theft if you get too big and the extra 20-30% potentially added to wages and I can see trouble ahead. You think an employee on 80k will pay sod all extra? Perhaps, but they won’t have a job to go to because their bosses have worked out they will get absolutely hammered, so they’ve buggered off elsewhere.
Read up on capital flight. Labour are bloody terrified of it.
This morning they’ve just announced 58 billion spend over 5 years to pay some pensions. That wasn’t in the manifesto last week, that’s just over the weekend.
58 billion to buy another 4 million votes. Overnight. Where the juddering f
k is that coming from? Statement says money will be raised “in the appropriate way”. Bend over. Clueless.I haven't mentioned landlords, private tenants right to buy, land value tax, licencing and second home tax, I'll stop now.
If you can’t see through all this you really need to step away from the Guardian and do some research.
Right, tea drunk, I need to go and build a new desk for one of my wife's half a dozen employees. While they still have a job.
andy43 said:
kuro68k said:
cc3 said:
I am happy to pay thousands in tax but I won’t pay it to the anti Semitic Marxists who want to run our country.
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
Take an SME. Employs 240 people, but is expanding. If they get to 250 employees 10% of their shares will be confiscated, workers put onto the Board, and the dividends handed out to the employees, up to 500 quid each per year. If by any remote chance the company keeps it’s head above water at that point, any surplus dividends go direct to the state. So what are they going to do? Stay put at 240 employees.
Take another, employing 300. What are they going to do, to protect their company? Exactly. 51 redundancies, contractors, separate ltd co, whatever it takes to avoid being robbed by the state.
Take a huge company. Openreach. That will be nationalised. Shares will be exchanged, as I understand it, either for bonds which will not produce the returns shares potentially could, or for cash at a cutprice rate set by the state. Either option is legalised theft. Who owns the shares? Not me, not you, but our pension companies. And I’m talking worldwide. These massive investors aren’t idiots – ukplc shares will be dropped like a hot potato on 13th December. Your pension will, if not fail, certainly underperform. FTSE will go through the floor in hours. We are traditionally an intelligently run ‘strong and stable’ economy. That’s how we flog our govt bonds. Start the printing presses as Labour are suggesting and those bonds will be worth zip.
Nailing amazon or ebay is like nailing jelly to a wall. Not saying it isn’t possible, or necessary, but it’d be hard work trying. These companies won’t take this lying down.
Corp tax - it is low for a reason. It encourages investment, both foreign and domestic. Add a third to it, and global investment will pack it’s bags and go elsewhere.
Dividend tax will be brought in line with income tax. That basically means one of the benefits of running a company rather than being employed is removed. So why bother?
Entrepreneurs relief will be removed. Another benefit of running a ltd co is removed. So why bother?
Minimum wage up from seven or eight quid to a tenner. Lovely. 18 year old new starter now on over 20k a year. But what about the 30 year old who used to be on ten quid? They’ll now want twelve quid. Your coffee/food/car service has just had 20-30% added to it’s labour costs. That’s called inflation. Instant inflation. See south America for details.
Add the corp tax increase, removal of the tax benefits above, add in the 10% theft if you get too big and the extra 20-30% potentially added to wages and I can see trouble ahead. You think an employee on 80k will pay sod all extra? Perhaps, but they won’t have a job to go to because their bosses have worked out they will get absolutely hammered, so they’ve buggered off elsewhere.
Read up on capital flight. Labour are bloody terrified of it.
This morning they’ve just announced 58 billion spend over 5 years to pay some pensions. That wasn’t in the manifesto last week, that’s just over the weekend.
58 billion to buy another 4 million votes. Overnight. Where the juddering f
k is that coming from? Statement says money will be raised “in the appropriate way”. Bend over. Clueless.I haven't mentioned landlords, private tenants right to buy, land value tax, licencing and second home tax, I'll stop now.
If you can’t see through all this you really need to step away from the Guardian and do some research.
Right, tea drunk, I need to go and build a new desk for one of my wife's half a dozen employees. While they still have a job.
Kuro has just cherry picked a small element and tried to justify it, which can’t be done in any case but is just a tiny part of the issue.
fesuvious said:
Way to go rewriting history there.
In 97 Labour inherited a budget surplas, before the recession @17-18 hearts later they were already in an overdraft.
You may also wish to research which gov opened the door to the compensation culture
Except they didn't. Graph from the office of national statistics.In 97 Labour inherited a budget surplas, before the recession @17-18 hearts later they were already in an overdraft.
You may also wish to research which gov opened the door to the compensation culture
SWoll said:
kuro68k said:
cc3 said:
I am happy to pay thousands in tax but I won’t pay it to the anti Semitic Marxists who want to run our country.
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
kuro68k said:
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.
If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
This the problem. If the left think your not paying tax to the level they want - your automatically a tax dodger and someone who is against the poor. Additionally, it is really annoying to assume that because you have money you cannot be part of the "hard working" set of people. All politicians from both sides of the political debate use the phrase as though only the poor are hard working whilst those who are not are somehow lucky at being lazy. My day starts at 6am and ends at 9pm, I have to commute 4 hours a day to ensure I am part of the top 5% - does that mean someone like me is not hard working?If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
I feel sorry for anyone that believes if they earn less than £80k they won't be impacted by Labour economic policy, as if those people are in a total bubble and are protected from wider economic shocks that will come as a direct result of poor fiscal policy. Everyone will pay, those that are super rich will leave, those that are rich will survive and those that are not will be buried under inflation and rising interest rates that will mean they cannot afford their existing debt obligations - bank loans and mortgages. I wish there was a way everyone could get everything for free, but that is never going to happen. Labour have done well to get away with saying those who are "rich" will pay a "little" more. Actually it is a little here and a little there and when it all adds up it becomes a hell of a lot - if it were only just a little bit more I would not care.
Kuro - your heart is in the right place by wanting to see a more equal society (I think only a heartless human being would not want that) - but that will never happen by just re-distribution of income from one group to another - not in this day and age. If Corbyn does get in with a Sturgeon alliance I will have no choice to but to leave this country and move abroad and I am not a billionaire. Plenty will do the same as their companies decide to relocate jobs outside the UK to other locations. You might say again...ah who cares - we don't need you - but remember Labour are all about the top 5% paying their "fair" share...so you need to keep that very mobile 5% in the country. When the 5% start to become smaller and smaller, then they will have to go for the top 10%...and then top 15%....it will never end until the country is a total lost cause like Venezuela (but even they have oil reserves to fall back on in the future). The definition of "rich" will then be anyone on a salary above £40k, which after double digit inflation will be as good as not having any income. This won't happen overnight, it will be a decline over the course of the next Parliament. By that time the country will have be begging to bring back the Tories and the cuts to public spending will be savage and much deeper than what we have seen over the last 10 years. It will be future generations who will be paying for this debt pile - which brings me back to the reason why I would leave the U.K. - I don't want my children paying for Jeremy Corbyn and his romantic pursuit of socialism. I have never come across anyone that has lived in a former Eastern block country who would like to go back to those days of socialism - they cannot believe how stupid people in this country are to believe that it was a glorious and fair system.
Dave Hedgehog said:
SWoll said:
kuro68k said:
cc3 said:
I am happy to pay thousands in tax but I won’t pay it to the anti Semitic Marxists who want to run our country.
How undemocratic. You disagree with the will of the people so you get angry and throw insults around and refuse to pay your tax.If you really are going to move all your assets out of the UK, become a citizen of nowhere as May put it, well don't expect any sympathy for your tax dodging and desire to abandon ship the moment things don't go your way.
Just pay your tax like all the other hard working people. If this affects you in any significant way then you are already rich and have nothing to complain about. If you earn £80k you will pay £8/month more income tax. If your company makes £1,000,000 profit it will pay £80k more in the worst case.
andy43 said:
I don’t think you understand. I will admit I might not either, but from what I think I know pull up a chair and have a seat :
Take an SME. Employs 240 people, but is expanding. If they get to 250 employees 10% of their shares will be confiscated, workers put onto the Board, and the dividends handed out to the employees, up to 500 quid each per year. If by any remote chance the company keeps it’s head above water at that point, any surplus dividends go direct to the state. So what are they going to do? Stay put at 240 employees.
Yes, you don't understand. It won't be anything like that.Take an SME. Employs 240 people, but is expanding. If they get to 250 employees 10% of their shares will be confiscated, workers put onto the Board, and the dividends handed out to the employees, up to 500 quid each per year. If by any remote chance the company keeps it’s head above water at that point, any surplus dividends go direct to the state. So what are they going to do? Stay put at 240 employees.
At 250 employees they will need to start thinking about offering some shares to employees. It will start with just some tiny amount and slowly increase as the company grows. There certainly won't be any "confiscation", that's completely mad.
Workers on the board will be similar, no immediate requirement but as time goes on they will be expected to have some representation, growing with the company.
[quote]Take a huge company. Openreach. That will be nationalised. Shares will be exchanged, as I understand it, either for bonds which will not produce the returns shares potentially could, or for cash at a cutprice rate set by the state.
Bonds are better than cash because they pay interest above inflation. The pension funds that receive them will be able to leverage them to buy other shares if they don't want to keep them.
[quote]ukplc shares will be dropped like a hot potato on 13th December.
[quote]Nailing amazon or ebay is like nailing jelly to a wall.
Another option is to just do what the French did a few months back and make a law which says they big multinational tax dodgers pay tax on their turnover instead of their profits, since they won't be straight about what their actual profits are.
[quote]Corp tax - it is low for a reason. It encourages investment, both foreign and domestic. Add a third to it, and global investment will pack it’s bags and go elsewhere.
Anyway, the real reason it's low is to give Tory donors a tax cut.
[quote]Dividend tax will be brought in line with income tax. That basically means one of the benefits of running a company rather than being employed is removed. So why bother?
Shuks76 said:
This the problem. If the left think your not paying tax to the level they want - your automatically a tax dodger and someone who is against the poor.
No, "the left" reads what you actually wrote, that you threatened to take your business out of the country to avoid paying an extremely reasonable average level of tax, and realized what sort of person you are.Why haven't you already left? There are countries with lower tax burdens than the UK.
It's because your business is here, your life is here, you probably don't have the right visa or speak the language. You just don't want to pay an entirely reasonable amount of tax while getting all the benefits of living here and using publicly funded services and infrastructure.
That's fine, you are free to hold that opinion, but we don't respond well to threats.
Shuks76 said:
Remember Labour are all about the top 5% paying their "fair" share...so you need to keep that very mobile 5% in the country.
This always gets me about Labour. They love to bring out the “rich should pay their fair share” to stir things up. As the top 5% already pay 50% of all income tax, are they insinuating the other 95% should pay more? 
kuro68k said:
No, "the left" reads what you actually wrote, that you threatened to take your business out of the country to avoid paying an extremely reasonable average level of tax, and realized what sort of person you are.
Why haven't you already left? There are countries with lower tax burdens than the UK.
It's because your business is here, your life is here, you probably don't have the right visa or speak the language. You just don't want to pay an entirely reasonable amount of tax while getting all the benefits of living here and using publicly funded services and infrastructure.
That's fine, you are free to hold that opinion, but we don't respond well to threats.
You are so wrong it is not funny. I pay PAYE and don’t own a business. I do not rely on state education for my kids or health care and speak 3 languages. My qualifications will mean I won’t have a problem leaving this country and moving somewhere else. I have turned down opportunities abroad already because I think this country is amazing. You ask why I haven’t left already. It is simple and I thought it would be obvious but let me spell it out for you. Corbyn hasn’t got in yet and hopefully he won’t ever make it to No.10. Over the last 20 years of employment I think me and my wife would have paid in excess of £1.5m in taxes so I think that earns me the right to decide when I want to leave not you. You keep asking people who don’t agree with you why they haven’t left already. Don’t be so keen to see us leave because I promise you it won’t be me that regrets it. Why haven't you already left? There are countries with lower tax burdens than the UK.
It's because your business is here, your life is here, you probably don't have the right visa or speak the language. You just don't want to pay an entirely reasonable amount of tax while getting all the benefits of living here and using publicly funded services and infrastructure.
That's fine, you are free to hold that opinion, but we don't respond well to threats.
Edited by Shuks76 on Sunday 24th November 22:25
No surprise contingency plans are being put in place
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com...
Shuks76 said:
I have turned down opportunities abroad already because I think this country is amazing.
You think it's amazing, but also so fragile that if the wrong government gets in you will immediately have to leave the day after. Paying slightly more tax, likely the same amount or less you would pay in most developed nations, is so bad that you can't say in this "amazing" country.I speak three languages too. I probably pay more income tax than you as well. Unlike you I do actually believe in this country and want it to be amazing, so I don't mind paying a little more tax considering the huge benefits it will bring to all of us. I learned a long time ago that you can build yourself a high walled compound to live in, but if you want more you need to tackle the social issues that are at the root of most of the wider problems.
fesuvious said:
Do you understand how budgetary forecasts and financial planning works?
Your chart proves, not disproves my point. It also clearly shows that Labour took a healthy economy and quickly ran up the overdraft.
Do you understand graphs?Your chart proves, not disproves my point. It also clearly shows that Labour took a healthy economy and quickly ran up the overdraft.
It clearly shows that the claim - Labour inherited a budget surplus - is wrong. It also shows that they had a sustainable, prudent level of borrowing until the financial crash hit and they had to take measures to protect the economy.
kuro68k said:
You think it's amazing, but also so fragile that if the wrong government gets in you will immediately have to leave the day after. Paying slightly more tax, likely the same amount or less you would pay in most developed nations, is so bad that you can't say in this "amazing" country.
I speak three languages too. I probably pay more income tax than you as well. Unlike you I do actually believe in this country and want it to be amazing, so I don't mind paying a little more tax considering the huge benefits it will bring to all of us. I learned a long time ago that you can build yourself a high walled compound to live in, but if you want more you need to tackle the social issues that are at the root of most of the wider problems.
Nobody minds paying tax but not to support anti Semitic, Terrorists friendly Marxists that will be reckless with the economy. That’s the issue. I can’t vote Labour with Corbyn and his mates in charge nor can millions of others. They are now so desperate they are making up new policies and throw around figures like an extra £50bn and admit they have no idea how to pay for it !!! I speak three languages too. I probably pay more income tax than you as well. Unlike you I do actually believe in this country and want it to be amazing, so I don't mind paying a little more tax considering the huge benefits it will bring to all of us. I learned a long time ago that you can build yourself a high walled compound to live in, but if you want more you need to tackle the social issues that are at the root of most of the wider problems.
Plenty of other countries to work in and run a business that will be a lot better than living in Corbyn’s U.K.
fesuvious said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
fesuvious said:
Way to go rewriting history there.
In 97 Labour inherited a budget surplas, before the recession @17-18 hearts later they were already in an overdraft.
You may also wish to research which gov opened the door to the compensation culture
Except they didn't. Graph from the office of national statistics.In 97 Labour inherited a budget surplas, before the recession @17-18 hearts later they were already in an overdraft.
You may also wish to research which gov opened the door to the compensation culture
Your chart proves, not disproves my point. It also clearly shows that Labour took a healthy economy and quickly ran up the overdraft.
But still, cry 'because Labour', but it's simply not the case. And yes, I voted TB, and no, I won't be voting JC. This isn't a pro-Labour agenda of mine.
Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Monday 25th November 10:47
kuro68k said:
You think it's amazing, but also so fragile that if the wrong government gets in you will immediately have to leave the day after. Paying slightly more tax, likely the same amount or less you would pay in most developed nations, is so bad that you can't say in this "amazing" country.
I speak three languages too. I probably pay more income tax than you as well. Unlike you I do actually believe in this country and want it to be amazing, so I don't mind paying a little more tax considering the huge benefits it will bring to all of us. I learned a long time ago that you can build yourself a high walled compound to live in, but if you want more you need to tackle the social issues that are at the root of most of the wider problems.
Happy that you speak that many languages and pay your "fair" share in tax. The difference is that I never presumed you could not speak languages, had visa issues or were sponging off the system and paying little tax like you implied in your post to me. I guess the saying "money doesn't buy class" is very true.I speak three languages too. I probably pay more income tax than you as well. Unlike you I do actually believe in this country and want it to be amazing, so I don't mind paying a little more tax considering the huge benefits it will bring to all of us. I learned a long time ago that you can build yourself a high walled compound to live in, but if you want more you need to tackle the social issues that are at the root of most of the wider problems.
In my opinion this country will no longer be "amazing" after a socialist and divisive Labour government led by JC and JM have served a term in office. This country is fragile at the moment in both the economic and social sense right now and battering it with such an aggressive set of tax/borrow/spend policies will destroy it for generations to come. If JC had come out with a less aggressive set of policies I think he would have had more of a chance.
Anyway, this will be the last post on this subject from me. I don't see any value in arguing the obvious with those that are blinkered. Everyone has a choice on 12th Dec - I know Labour will not be getting my vote.
Going back to the OP's original tongue in cheek question - if Labour did nationalise the Tesla Supercharger network it would take away one of big benefits of owning a Tesla. As a Model S owner and early adopter I was prepared to pay the premium knowing that I would get the benefit of a super charger network that was Tesla specific and that my purchase would help fund (in a small way) the development of the Model 3 ("for the many").
cc3 said:
Nobody minds paying tax but not to support anti Semitic, Terrorists friendly Marxists that will be reckless with the economy.
Come on, you know this is BS.Anyway, the alternative is Boris, a habitual liar and bigot who only looks out for himself. If you want to talk about terrorism the stuff he says is what stirs up domestic terrorists.
Say what you like about Corbyn but you can't deny that he shows genuine concern for people, even if you disagree with his policies.
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