The A110 wheels thread (OEM and aftermarket)

[Meonstoke]

7en said:

One question we can now answer once and for all - Alpine are correct in saying that the 17" standard wheels are incompatible with the 320mm brakes.

The front fit fine but seems the rear wheel's centre bore is too small to fit over the hub and/or the rear caliper blocks the wheel.

I'm curious of the options for 17" wheels... I know I could either install the smaller hub/carrier/brakes on the rear, or look at a different set of 17" wheels.

I'm also wondering if anyone knows of a jack which easily fits under the A110? My Halfords tiny jack doesn't fit under the front jacking point and just about gets under the rear, although with no room for a rubber pad. Thankfully jacking up the rear lifts the front too so easy enough to swap one side (or try to!) at a time.

Edited by 7en on Sunday 31st December 14:09

Hi 7en,

Thanks for posting, although I was a bit surprised to read that the rear 17" OEM wheels will not fit over the larger 320mm brakes. I was led to believe from the Life110 team that fitting the 17" OEM wheels over the larger brakes would not be a problem - other than Alpine did not want to offer this combination as an option when configuring a new car. However it's possible there was a misunderstanding and that other 17" wheels were being referred to. Can you expand a bit on how you reached your conclusions please?
Thanks.

M.

[Julian Thompson]

7en said:

Here's the part numbers for the various wheel centre caps:

Black with black logo: 6020016250

Black with blue logo: 6020080074

Chrome with blue logo: 6020080057

Chrome with black logo: 6020016249

Edited by 7en on Thursday 4th January 08:21

Awesome thanks!

[Julian Thompson]

Meonstoke said:

7en said:

One question we can now answer once and for all - Alpine are correct in saying that the 17" standard wheels are incompatible with the 320mm brakes.

The front fit fine but seems the rear wheel's centre bore is too small to fit over the hub and/or the rear caliper blocks the wheel.

I'm curious of the options for 17" wheels... I know I could either install the smaller hub/carrier/brakes on the rear, or look at a different set of 17" wheels.

I'm also wondering if anyone knows of a jack which easily fits under the A110? My Halfords tiny jack doesn't fit under the front jacking point and just about gets under the rear, although with no room for a rubber pad. Thankfully jacking up the rear lifts the front too so easy enough to swap one side (or try to!) at a time.

Edited by 7en on Sunday 31st December 14:09

Hi 7en,

Thanks for posting, although I was a bit surprised to read that the rear 17" OEM wheels will not fit over the larger 320mm brakes. I was led to believe from the Life110 team that fitting the 17" OEM wheels over the larger brakes would not be a problem - other than Alpine did not want to offer this combination as an option when configuring a new car. However it's possible there was a misunderstanding and that other 17" wheels were being referred to. Can you expand a bit on how you reached your conclusions please?
Thanks.

M.

I measured this the other day. My car has 296mm discs at the back and there is 10mm of clearance to the standard 17 inch wheel. Thus, if you increase disc size by 24mm to 320mm you needed 14mm of clearance plus a margin, which you don’t have, thus I concur with 7en - they won’t fit the standard 17 wheels.

[Meonstoke]

Clearly biased but the Seracs in a lite gold fleck do look stunning in the cold light of day. I probably wouldn't opt for them in their standard colour scheme.

If I can't find 17" alternatives which I like (and which fit), then I'll stick with the Seracs and eventually fit the larger size tyres as fitted optionally on the S i.e. 215F / 245R. The sidewall is very slightly higher than the standard 18" 205F / 235R Michelins.

[7en]

Meonstoke said:

Hi 7en,

Thanks for posting, although I was a bit surprised to read that the rear 17" OEM wheels will not fit over the larger 320mm brakes. I was led to believe from the Life110 team that fitting the 17" OEM wheels over the larger brakes would not be a problem - other than Alpine did not want to offer this combination as an option when configuring a new car. However it's possible there was a misunderstanding and that other 17" wheels were being referred to. Can you expand a bit on how you reached your conclusions please?
Thanks.

M.

I tried to actually fit the rear wheel over the rear brakes and they didn't fit around the caliper. I was incorrect in thinking it was the bore of the hub being different. The front was fine, albeit the balancing weights running close to the caliper, although I've seen OEM wheels fit closer to brakes on other marques.

I'm not giving up though, as nice as the Fuchs are I have my heart set on trying the 17" wheels and have sourced some rear hub carriers and discs from a smaller brake car so should be able to make them fit.

[Meonstoke]

7en said:

Meonstoke said:

Hi 7en,

Thanks for posting, although I was a bit surprised to read that the rear 17" OEM wheels will not fit over the larger 320mm brakes. I was led to believe from the Life110 team that fitting the 17" OEM wheels over the larger brakes would not be a problem - other than Alpine did not want to offer this combination as an option when configuring a new car. However it's possible there was a misunderstanding and that other 17" wheels were being referred to. Can you expand a bit on how you reached your conclusions please?
Thanks.

M.

I tried to actually fit the rear wheel over the rear brakes and they didn't fit around the caliper. I was incorrect in thinking it was the bore of the hub being different. The front was fine, albeit the balancing weights running close to the caliper, although I've seen OEM wheels fit closer to brakes on other marques.

I'm not giving up though, as nice as the Fuchs are I have my heart set on trying the 17" wheels and have sourced some rear hub carriers and discs from a smaller brake car so should be able to make them fit.

7en,

You might want to consider contacting Life110 about 17" wheel possibilities. David Pook is well connected and may be able to advise on firms who may be able to help. If you do find a company which makes (or can make) a lightweight 17"wheel to fit over the 320 mm brake calipers; you may also want to consider polling the forum to see who else may be interested. If you can gather 7-10 persons; this may motivate a consignment - and also reduce the individual cost.

Personally, I think there is a reasonable enough demand for those of us who prefer 1) the more comfortable ride and / or 2) the aesthetics of the smaller wheel. I see no reason why a 17" wheel set up can't be tuned to handle well together with correct tyre choice and damper set-up, etc. It would also be nice if a choice of 17" wheel design was possible - a) sporty modern version and b) a more retro version fitting with the A110's retro look.

Good luck with your endeavours - keep us posted!

[7en]

Meonstoke said:

7en,

You might want to consider contacting Life110 about 17" wheel possibilities. David Pook is well connected and may be able to advise on firms who may be able to help. If you do find a company which makes (or can make) a lightweight 17"wheel to fit over the 320 mm brake calipers; you may also want to consider polling the forum to see who else may be interested. If you can gather 7-10 persons; this may motivate a consignment - and also reduce the individual cost.

Personally, I think there is a reasonable enough demand for those of us who prefer 1) the more comfortable ride and / or 2) the aesthetics of the smaller wheel. I see no reason why a 17" wheel set up can't be tuned to handle well together with correct tyre choice and damper set-up, etc. It would also be nice if a choice of 17" wheel design was possible - a) sporty modern version and b) a more retro version fitting with the A110's retro look.

Good luck with your endeavours - keep us posted!

Thanks for the recommendations. I have contacted David to let him know and asked if he knew of any wheels which fit.

I'm currently set on fitting the original 17" wheels for now as have them here and think they suit the car, but am open to aftermarket options long-term if it enables me to retain the original 320mm rear brakes, perhaps along with some additional weight saving.

Judging by the below video the Braid Full Race A 17" 7J ET30 do fit over the rear brakes, so I presume that the original rear size 17" 8J ET40 would also be fine. In an earlier video he weighed in the wheel at 8.9kg, 8J rears would probably be a bit heavier, so think a set of Braid Full Race A would be heavier than the standard 17" wheels which are 34.5kg set. Of course with standard wheels comes the heavier brake discs, as the 320mm brake discs are supposed to be lighter than the 296mm option. I do know that someone weighed a 320mm disc in at 7.5kg and Brembo claim the 296mm disc is also 7.5kg. Judging by hand alone the 320mm did feel lighter but I will weigh them both next weekend, neither are new but both are low mileage discs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaTuPeFt2iU&t=...

With this in mind and if money was no object, I would be looking at the Braid Forged I as a 17" possibility.

The project to fit the standard 17" wheels is ongoing as I needed a hub extractor which I didn't have to hand, but have tried something out of curiosity... It's not a set up I plan on retaining, just an experiment for this afternoon.



I can't say I've noticed a huge difference with 17" wheels at the front and will be switching back to the full 18" set up for now, simply so when I do swap to the 17" wheels I will have more miles of experience to compare.

Edited by 7en on Saturday 6th January 17:44

[Olivera]

7en said:

I'm not giving up though, as nice as the Fuchs are I have my heart set on trying the 17" wheels and have sourced some rear hub carriers and discs from a smaller brake car so should be able to make them fit.

You're downgrading the rear brakes just to try the 17" wheels?

[7en]

Well yes it is technically a downgrade on brake discs, however the 296mm brakes are more than adequate.

At the same time it's ~2.7kg saving on unsprung weight accounting for the heavier brake discs, plus an ever so slightly better ride, acceleration and mpg.

As beautiful as the Fuchs wheels are I actually prefer the stance and less aggressive looks of the car on the 17" wheels. David Twohig the lead engineer of the A110 also said that his preferred car spec would be on the 17" wheels.

I also just love working on my car and trying new things.

Edited by 7en on Saturday 6th January 19:27

[worldwidewebs]

7en said:

I also just love working on my car and trying new things.

And that, by far, is the most important thing.

[Olivera]

Unless you also downgrade the front disc size then the brake balance will be off.

I've also stated on here before - there is a tendency to vastly overstate just how much the ride quality will improve by going down 1" in wheel size on any car. Do the calcs to see how much extra sidewall you get, it's maybe in the region of 10% plus a small weight saving. Now given ride quality has several variables - spring rate, damping (bump, rebound), anti roll bar stiffness, unsprung weight, and finally tyre construction and sidewall, how can varying the final one by 10% have a significant effect on the overall system? It will have a (possibly very) small effect, but mostly it's a placebo.

[7en]

I have thought about brake balance and open to any technical criticism if that is genuinely the case. My current view is that the same brake pads are making contact with the same amount of disc, so don't think brake balance would be an issue. If you have a look at the 320mm brake discs when the brake pads clear the surface corrosion, there's an area where the pads don't make any contact with the disc.

I acknowledge any improvement in ride would probably be so minimal it could be imperceptible/irrelevant.

[Olivera]

7en said:

I have thought about brake balance and open to any technical criticism if that is genuinely the case. My current view is that the same brake pads are making contact with the same amount of disc, so don't think brake balance would be an issue.

There will be a brake balance difference versus what the OEM intended. A larger or smaller disc changes the leverage being applied at the wheel, even with exaclty the same caliper, pads etc.

[Meonstoke]

Olivera said:

Unless you also downgrade the front disc size then the brake balance will be off.

I've also stated on here before - there is a tendency to vastly overstate just how much the ride quality will improve by going down 1" in wheel size on any car. Do the calcs to see how much extra sidewall you get, it's maybe in the region of 10% plus a small weight saving. Now given ride quality has several variables - spring rate, damping (bump, rebound), anti roll bar stiffness, unsprung weight, and finally tyre construction and sidewall, how can varying the final one by 10% have a significant effect on the overall system? It will have a (possibly very) small effect, but mostly it's a placebo.

Olivera,

If you can save 2.5 Kg unsprong weight per wheel (c.f. the standard non-Fuch wheel).... trust me, you will "notice" the difference! See page '2' of this thread to review the total OEM wheel+tyre weight figures - and these figures come from Alpine themselves.

I fully understand why 7en is pursuing the 17" route.

M.

[HokumPokum]

17" wheels will be the best weight savings since it is the furthest point of rotational mass baring the tyres.

as long as you are getting enough cooling for the brakes, that combines ride benefit with better handling and performance especially if you are using performance tyres with stiff sidewalls. I don't see any downside to the search and experiment tbh.

[7en]

Meonstoke said:

Olivera,

If you can save 2.5 Kg unsprong weight per wheel (c.f. the standard non-Fuch wheel).... trust me, you will "notice" the difference! See page '2' of this thread to review the total OEM wheel+tyre weight figures - and these figures come from Alpine themselves.

I fully understand why 7en is pursuing the 17" route.

M.

Just to clarify it's ~2.7kg overall weight saving, taking into account the heavier brake discs. 2.7kg per corner would be an incredible saving!

With the current info I have the 296mm discs add ~190g on each rear corner but the remaining weight saving of each wheel is still ~485g. The modified hub carriers for the 296mm brakes also save a little weight as they've been shaved down to accommodate the smaller discs. I'll make sure to measure the weight of each wheel/tyre, hub carrier and brake disc, then calculate the savings for anyone interested, although it won't be on brand new parts they will all be low mileage.

The only balance issue I can forsee with a rear brake downgrade/upgrade is the different material of the discs having different levels of grip for the pads, but I think this would be minimal. I understand why some may be against tinkering but it's a car I plan on keeping for life so would like to try different options and fine tune to my preference. I'm also picking up a set of low mileage GT seats and planning to install a subwoofer in the bulkhead and possibly install the reversing camera for the same reason. I think 30 minute to an hour test drives aren't really enough to decide which car you would like long-term; had I specced from factory it would be the same car I currently have, rather than going for a base car or a GT and tweaking from there, as bucket seats and larger hub carriers for sale on the used market are extremely rare to non-existent.

Edited by 7en on Sunday 7th January 15:26

[Olivera]

7en said:

The only balance issue I can forsee with a rear brake downgrade/upgrade is the different material of the discs having different levels of grip for the pads, but I think this would be minimal.

Um, as I stated a smaller disc means less leverage applied by *exactly* the same caliper and pad. From quora:

"The braking torque is directly proportional to the effective radius at which the normal force is applied by the brake pads on the brake disc. Thus, for a given size of caliper and master cylinder in the brake system, a large diameter disc will provide higher braking torque on the wheel"

I'm all for modifying cars though, so go ahead with trying some changes :thumbsup:

Personally I would keep the entire large brake setup and would instead source lighter 18" Fuchs or aftermarket wheels, which will really have a negligible weight difference vs the OEM 17" wheels. After that I would look at aftermarket springs/dampers like the ones Life110 offers, as quite a few have said the OEM dampers are cheap units that can easily be bettered.

[7en]

I do think you have a point, I actually already had it in mind that if I settle on the 17" wheels I would change the front hub carriers and discs as well for the sake of consistency. However I am sceptical that it would be noticeably out of balance with just the rears.

I'm going to stick to the Fuchs and 320mm brake discs for a while, just so when I do try the 17" setup I'll be able to pick up on the difference, if any.

In the future I'd be interested in suspension but wouldn't like anything firmer than the standard setup on the road, which would rule out the Bilsteins. Will keep an eye on reviews of the AST setup...

[bcr5784]

Olivera said:

Um, as I stated a smaller disc means less leverage applied by *exactly* the same caliper and pad. From quora:

"The braking torque is directly proportional to the effective radius at which the normal force is applied by the brake pads on the brake disc. Thus, for a given size of caliper and master cylinder in the brake system, a large diameter disc will provide higher braking torque on the wheel"

Are the slave cylinders the same size? If the one on the smaller disk is bigger then the braking force could similar or even greater. It then only comes down to fade resistance - and the smaller disc is probably better matched to the front disc which will take a greater proportion of the braking force.

[7en]

bcr5784 said:

Are the slave cylinders the same size? If the one on the smaller disk is bigger then the braking force could similar or even greater. It then only comes down to fade resistance - and the smaller disc is probably better matched to the front disc which will take a greater proportion of the braking force.

I've had a look and all the brake system parts (servo/booster, master cylinder, 'pump-vac' booster, lines, hoses and ABS unit) are the same on small vs big brake car, except of course for the hub carriers and the discs.

I'm pretty sure when I do try this I'll just go whole hog and do front and rear as it's the only really fair test. It's not a super expensive experiment as I already have the wheels and there are used sets of smaller brake setups around, as a few people upgrade to bigger brakes and have them spare.

I'm actually interested in brake pedal feel on each setup. I love the feel of the big brakes under moderate to hard braking, but at low speed I find I have to be very gentle or they're quite firm and jerkk. It's easy to get used to after while but coming out of my weekday car they can catch me off guard.