Alpine A110 to be axed?

[bcr5784]

Argleton said:

The only issue I have with that graph is that the Audi TT is on it. I know they call it a sportscar but it's nothing of the sort and not even on nodding terms with the rest on the list.

I think that's probably why it sells so much, its 'sportscar lite'.

Apologies if this continues the thread.....

The TT covers a wide price range - you can pick a new one up for well under £30k (they are heavilly discounted). It appeals to a wider demographic too. So it's hardly surprising it should sell in the largest numbers. It's only really the more powerful models and the TTTRS in particularly that competes with the Cayman or Alpine.

[DonkeyApple]

bcr5784 said:

DoubleD said:

And round we go yet again!

YOU asked who had won - so it's your fault this time.

Audi has won. And that’s because they put a van engine into their sports cars. The truth is that the British public just want dirty VAG.

[Prestonese]

DonkeyApple said:

bcr5784 said:

DoubleD said:

And round we go yet again!

YOU asked who had won - so it's your fault this time.

Audi has won. And that’s because they put a van engine into their sports cars. The truth is that the British public just want dirty VAG.

Audi winning is the fairest outcome here I think. Facts don't lie either. Who would have thought it?

[FA57REN]

Laurens van den Acker said:

The challenge will be making something electric which is lightweight. Straight-line speed is no issue but that isn’t the attraction of Alpine. It’s about throwing a car around. It’s like a Mazda MX-5 or Lotus Elise in spirit.”

Wot he sed

What does it matter if it's an electric drivetrain if the car puts a huge grin on your face as it slices through curves?

I don't get the obsession on PH about exhaust snort and cylinder burble. Driving pleasure should be priority #1, not how many heads the car turns with burbles and pops.

[DonkeyApple]

Prestonese said:

DonkeyApple said:

bcr5784 said:

DoubleD said:

And round we go yet again!

YOU asked who had won - so it's your fault this time.

Audi has won. And that’s because they put a van engine into their sports cars. The truth is that the British public just want dirty VAG.

Audi winning is the fairest outcome here I think. Facts don't lie either. Who would have thought it?

To be fair, as I think someone has already mentioned you can buy a hardtop TT in non performance spec for a lot less than you can acquire a Cayman or Alpine so you would expect a lot more to be sold.

The cayman’s figures are deflated considerably by the fact that there is a ragtop Porsche available at the same level. I’m not sure that in the UK the Cayman is all the popular when there is the 911 just above it and a convertible alongside it. In reality one could fairly ask what the point of the Cayman is.

I think as far as the Alpine is concerned, it needs to be compared to other less mainstream, similar cars like the 4c or the Evora and then you can see that it has sold enormously by comparison. To even be near the figures of mainstream, mass produced stuff like Audi or Porsche is pretty impressive. I can’t really see how it’s sales figures can be ridiculed in any way?

[craigjm]

Latest video from Autocar

https://youtu.be/oENAmI8gcdg

[HighwayStar]

DonkeyApple said:

Prestonese said:

DonkeyApple said:

bcr5784 said:

DoubleD said:

And round we go yet again!

YOU asked who had won - so it's your fault this time.

Audi has won. And that’s because they put a van engine into their sports cars. The truth is that the British public just want dirty VAG.

Audi winning is the fairest outcome here I think. Facts don't lie either. Who would have thought it?

To be fair, as I think someone has already mentioned you can buy a hardtop TT in non performance spec for a lot less than you can acquire a Cayman or Alpine so you would expect a lot more to be sold.

The cayman’s figures are deflated considerably by the fact that there is a ragtop Porsche available at the same level. I’m not sure that in the UK the Cayman is all the popular when there is the 911 just above it and a convertible alongside it. In reality one could fairly ask what the point of the Cayman is.

I think as far as the Alpine is concerned, it needs to be compared to other less mainstream, similar cars like the 4c or the Evora and then you can see that it has sold enormously by comparison. To even be near the figures of mainstream, mass produced stuff like Audi or Porsche is pretty impressive. I can’t really see how it’s sales figures can be ridiculed in any way?

Well in reality the Cayman is for someone who doesn’t want a Boxster/convertible. Me. Or a 911. Me. The Cayman works for me, really appreciate the Alpine too.

[bcr5784]

HighwayStar said:

Well in reality the Cayman is for someone who doesn’t want a Boxster/convertible. Me.

I positively don't want a convertible having had the roof on my Elise slashed to pinch the radio and two tax discs nicked from my Caterham. Give me the extra security of a solid roof. In most cases you get more structural rigidity too - I hate scuttle shake. (To be fair both Boxster and Elise are good in that regard, but suffer in other areas as a result)

[DoubleD]

I personally wouldn't buy a 2 seater coupe, I find getting the roof down on a car makes it a lot more fun than a coupe. Saying that, I wouldnt buy a 4 seater softop, im not sure why, but I really dont like them.

[cerb4.5lee]

FA57REN said:

Laurens van den Acker said:

The challenge will be making something electric which is lightweight. Straight-line speed is no issue but that isn’t the attraction of Alpine. It’s about throwing a car around. It’s like a Mazda MX-5 or Lotus Elise in spirit.”

Wot he sed

What does it matter if it's an electric drivetrain if the car puts a huge grin on your face as it slices through curves?

I don't get the obsession on PH about exhaust snort and cylinder burble. Driving pleasure should be priority #1, not how many heads the car turns with burbles and pops.

A car that has a nice exhaust snort and cylinder burble is an addictive and enjoyable experience for me. I don't want to drive down a road in a milk float that goes fast, and it just wouldn't be the same for me.

Electric is fine for the vegans and the tree huggers, but I struggle to understand their appeal. I'm a dinosaur though...so that probably explains it!

[cerb4.5lee]

bcr5784 said:

HighwayStar said:

Well in reality the Cayman is for someone who doesn’t want a Boxster/convertible. Me.

I positively don't want a convertible having had the roof on my Elise slashed to pinch the radio and two tax discs nicked from my Caterham. Give me the extra security of a solid roof. In most cases you get more structural rigidity too - I hate scuttle shake. (To be fair both Boxster and Elise are good in that regard, but suffer in other areas as a result)

If you have more than one car(plus a garage) and you just use the convertible to drive for fun then the roof issue isn't a problem(I understand the fear factor if the roof is up and you have to leave it somewhere everyday though). Agree with you regarding the scuttle shake though, and I've never driven a convertible where I haven't noticed it.

[HighwayStar]

cerb4.5lee said:

bcr5784 said:

HighwayStar said:

Well in reality the Cayman is for someone who doesn’t want a Boxster/convertible. Me.

I positively don't want a convertible having had the roof on my Elise slashed to pinch the radio and two tax discs nicked from my Caterham. Give me the extra security of a solid roof. In most cases you get more structural rigidity too - I hate scuttle shake. (To be fair both Boxster and Elise are good in that regard, but suffer in other areas as a result)

If you have more than one car(plus a garage) and you just use the convertible to drive for fun then the roof issue isn't a problem(I understand the fear factor if the roof is up and you have to leave it somewhere everyday though). Agree with you regarding the scuttle shake though, and I've never driven a convertible where I haven't noticed it.

I get the love of roof down motoring, 2 friends have them but it’s really not for me. It’s not even a security issue in my mind, I just prefer a proper roof and no... not a targa top or even worse a folding roof.

[shih tzu faced]

HighwayStar said:

I get the love of roof down motoring, 2 friends have them but it’s really not for me. It’s not even a security issue in my mind, I just prefer a proper roof and no... not a targa top or even worse a folding roof.

Same here. Fun for a little while but the novelty soon wears off for me. Great fun in a borrowed car for one day blasting around country roads, but a non-starter as an ownership proposition.

Very much a personal preference though; don’t want to start another argument in an Alpine thread!

[cerb4.5lee]

HighwayStar said:

cerb4.5lee said:

bcr5784 said:

HighwayStar said:

Well in reality the Cayman is for someone who doesn’t want a Boxster/convertible. Me.

I positively don't want a convertible having had the roof on my Elise slashed to pinch the radio and two tax discs nicked from my Caterham. Give me the extra security of a solid roof. In most cases you get more structural rigidity too - I hate scuttle shake. (To be fair both Boxster and Elise are good in that regard, but suffer in other areas as a result)

If you have more than one car(plus a garage) and you just use the convertible to drive for fun then the roof issue isn't a problem(I understand the fear factor if the roof is up and you have to leave it somewhere everyday though). Agree with you regarding the scuttle shake though, and I've never driven a convertible where I haven't noticed it.

I get the love of roof down motoring, 2 friends have them but it’s really not for me. It’s not even a security issue in my mind, I just prefer a proper roof and no... not a targa top or even worse a folding roof.

Yes and they certainly aren't for everyone for sure. I was always a Coupe die hard...but I got sick of not being able to hear the engine/exhaust that well in them(apart from my Cerbera). So I now prefer a Convertible mostly for that reason, and the added noise that they offer I really appreciate.

Roof down I can hear the exhaust burbling away even at idle, and that sort of thing I do really love. My Cerbera was similar and I loved that you could hear the exhaust without really trying.

[craigjm]

Would be interesting to see what a convertible A110 might look like though and it would bring it to a whole new audience.

It’s difficult to see what they expand the model range to. An SUV would just look like a cynical money making thing. Maybe a large GT but then how do you keep it light and all that. I guess they are in a very similar position to Lotus

[DonkeyApple]

HighwayStar said:

DonkeyApple said:

Prestonese said:

DonkeyApple said:

bcr5784 said:

DoubleD said:

And round we go yet again!

YOU asked who had won - so it's your fault this time.

Audi has won. And that’s because they put a van engine into their sports cars. The truth is that the British public just want dirty VAG.

Audi winning is the fairest outcome here I think. Facts don't lie either. Who would have thought it?

To be fair, as I think someone has already mentioned you can buy a hardtop TT in non performance spec for a lot less than you can acquire a Cayman or Alpine so you would expect a lot more to be sold.

The cayman’s figures are deflated considerably by the fact that there is a ragtop Porsche available at the same level. I’m not sure that in the UK the Cayman is all the popular when there is the 911 just above it and a convertible alongside it. In reality one could fairly ask what the point of the Cayman is.

I think as far as the Alpine is concerned, it needs to be compared to other less mainstream, similar cars like the 4c or the Evora and then you can see that it has sold enormously by comparison. To even be near the figures of mainstream, mass produced stuff like Audi or Porsche is pretty impressive. I can’t really see how it’s sales figures can be ridiculed in any way?

Well in reality the Cayman is for someone who doesn’t want a Boxster/convertible. Me. Or a 911. Me. The Cayman works for me, really appreciate the Alpine too.

Are you suggesting that the other people who bought Cayman did so accidentally?

[HighwayStar]

craigjm said:

Would be interesting to see what a convertible A110 might look like though and it would bring it to a whole new audience.

It’s difficult to see what they expand the model range to. An SUV would just look like a cynical money making thing. Maybe a large GT but then how do you keep it light and all that. I guess they are in a very similar position to Lotus

I believe an SUV was supposed to be the next cab off the rank, at least certainly in the plan.
Obviously times are rather different now:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-fra...

[DonkeyApple]

craigjm said:

Would be interesting to see what a convertible A110 might look like though and it would bring it to a whole new audience.

It’s difficult to see what they expand the model range to. An SUV would just look like a cynical money making thing. Maybe a large GT but then how do you keep it light and all that. I guess they are in a very similar position to Lotus

When you stand next to an original Alpine and see that it isn’t in reality much larger than one of Elvis’ suede shoes, it does seem a stretch to imagine them building vans and old man sportscars.

It’s got to be the toughest decision for car manufacturers at the moment whether to build an expensive product for the over 60s who have the spending power, free time and flown children or to tailor it for the under 35s who have much, much less spending power but also have the lifestyle to use a two seater as an only car. If you opt for the former you have to go heavier with electric seat motors, electric everything because they don’t do manual labour but can’t afford staff. And if you opt for the former you probably have to add the enormous weight of battery bricks to get people to stretch themselves.

In reality I assume they will follow the traditional route along the lines of the next model being identical but with a targa too so barely any tooling changes are required, the one after that being the exact same car but with an electric roof and then will come the power plant options which you’d think would be a hybrid version with maybe a smaller petrol unit depending on how many immensely heavy battery cells can be hidden sensibly in the car.

Will these little sports cars go full electric? It’s close to inconceivable because of the crippling inefficiency of the current battery tech to store sufficient power within a kg of mass. With the current tech you can easily see hatchbacks for local range duties and big cars for long range straight line duties easily becoming electrified if they can keep bridging the cost chasm with additional taxation and production cost savings but where’s the market for an impractical, small two seater that pretty much exists to yield automotive freedom if it doesn’t give you any of those freedoms? Who’s going to pay £50k for a product that specifically removes all automotive freedom and restricts them to either staying within a few miles of their home or only travelling on motorways? EVs work for commercial activities and a small number of liesure ones such as being able to select a weekend hotel that is within range and has a charger.

I had a neighbour in Hampstead who had an original Tesla. Cracking thing and obviously battery tech has moved forward considerably in terms of power density and charge times (but it is still utter crap hence why massive taxation devices have to be used for any to be sold) but he couldn’t use it as a sports car. It didn’t work as a shopping car obviously. No good for local duties like the school run. Couldn’t do road trips. Couldn’t do any driving for fun. He ran it around the high street for a month or so and then it just sat on his drive for about three years. It served absolutely no purpose as a vehicle. The irony was that parked on the other side of Frognal to this orange Tesla has always been a late mini. A tiny car which can do all the things the Tesla couldn’t. Cheap to own, cheap to run, highly practical for its size and hugely usable.

I think it is fair to say that the electric motor is the future but it is being hideously crippled by battery tech that in the cold light of day has the same problem today that it had 120 years ago when they were first used in motor vehicles. They are cripplingly heavy bricks that store insufficient energy to deliver any freedom or flexible utility. It’s the archaic chemical battery tech that means petrol is still the superior means to power an engine in a vehicle that doesn’t exist to be used in a fixed, inflexible routine.

The saviour of the sports car will be the breakthrough to a new and viable form of energy storage that is superior to petrol.

The likes of Alpine know they have to talk about pure EV all the time but that hybrid is the only viable option at present and for a considerable time to come. Unless of course they stick some Alpine badges on a few Renault or Nissan SUVs? Which seems entirely plausible?

[bcr5784]

HighwayStar said:

I believe an SUV was supposed to be the next cab off the rank, at least certainly in the plan.
Obviously times are rather different now:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-fra...

That was my understanding too. But if they don't tart up someones existing SUV as Porsche have done, I'm not sure where they can go. A targa A110 is a relatively cheap option, but what then? An electric/hybrid 110 perhaps but any genuinly new lightweight model (of any type) is going to cost a lot to develop. They can't maintain a brand on only one model. Perhaps we'll get an inkling once the new MD takes his post in July.

[TurboBlue]

Good post, I'd agree that in this part of the market the sportscar is going to get squeezed by weight, range and appeal.

Probably doesn't matter as I don't see how the current Alpine platform could be easily made electric only (too heavy), hybrid (not enough space) unless just a 48 volt system with no battery pack; the latter is most likely but it is a rather pointless short term fix that doesn't address the forthcoming restrictive legislation for what is meant as an everyday use car.

Renault have plenty of form investing in only a very limited run of sports cars from the original 5 Turbo to the Sport Spider to the Clio V6 so I'd be very surprised if the current A110 doesn't stay ICE and then stops production to be replaced by something wholly electric and at a very different price point.