2023 rallying thread (WRC, ERC, national and historics)
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
There are numerous great issues raised. the paywall thing is just greed, pure and simple. They do not make enough revenue from advertising and tv deals to make a profit, so because F1, boxing, cricket do it, why not charge people to watch WRC sort of live and sometimes fully live, it is pure greed, but the downside is you drop the casual away who might want to see some live action now and then on telly. That is ALL on Red Bull media, no-one else.
Red Bull have been a major disappointment - and in all honesty I wonder how much influence they have. It reminds of all the old ISC/North One era content, nothing like RB at all. Look at the other stuff RB do....and all free to air. it is just a cash grab, they have to pay for the rights, so will use that as a way to drive payment.
The even more pathetic aspect is rallycross, now pretty on its death bed after IMG raped, pillaged and utterly ruined it, yet apparently that is worth including in the package despite the fact they can barely muster 10 cars!
yet unbelievably there are still people that pay for it"!
The even more pathetic aspect is rallycross, now pretty on its death bed after IMG raped, pillaged and utterly ruined it, yet apparently that is worth including in the package despite the fact they can barely muster 10 cars!
yet unbelievably there are still people that pay for it"!
LukeBrown66 said:
There are numerous great issues raised. the paywall thing is just greed, pure and simple. They do not make enough revenue from advertising and tv deals to make a profit, <snip>
I don't want this to seem like a have a go at LukeBrowne66 post once again, but what else can they do? You have stated "They do not make enough revenue from advertising and tv deals to make a profit" so where else does the budget to cover the events come from other than a charge to view? Red Bull expend a lot on sponsorship alreadyLukeBrown66 said:
Now you have to fight with gaming, festivals, tv and mountains of other stuff having billions a year pumped in to it to make it seem unmissable when in fact most of it is utterly futile rubbish!!
Why are gaming and festivals "futile rubbish", enjoyed by millions and don't cost hugely unaffordable sums for the participants Response to loads of other posters/post
WRC1 is too complex and yet too limiting etc I agree with. Just R5 is enough for me doesn't even need to be an R5+. I would imagine a current R5 is faster than any Group A car, yet some call that a Golden Era and manufacturers don't need to build unsustainable numbers of road cars to sell them. Overdoing the aero though does make them look a bit all the same.
No privateer will beat a works car/driver even if the cars are exactly the same spec. Seat time and the ability to create a spec exactly to their liking will see to that. Remember the excitement when Mark Higgins was given a full works car for the RAC, loads of rally chat about how he would show them all. 6th OA I think and last of the Ford Works cars. A fantastic drive absolutely by probably the quickest British driver of recent-ish years to not get a full WRC opportunity but not quicker than the regular drivers. It would be closer sure and road positions might throw up the odd unusual result (Bryan Bouffier anyone?) but that's about it
LastPoster said:
WRC1 is too complex and yet too limiting etc I agree with. Just R5 is enough for me doesn't even need to be an R5+. I would imagine a current R5 is faster than any Group A car, yet some call that a Golden Era and manufacturers don't need to build unsustainable numbers of road cars to sell them. Overdoing the aero though does make them look a bit all the same.
No privateer will beat a works car/driver even if the cars are exactly the same spec. Seat time and the ability to create a spec exactly to their liking will see to that. Remember the excitement when Mark Higgins was given a full works car for the RAC, loads of rally chat about how he would show them all. 6th OA I think and last of the Ford Works cars. A fantastic drive absolutely by probably the quickest British driver of recent-ish years to not get a full WRC opportunity but not quicker than the regular drivers. It would be closer sure and road positions might throw up the odd unusual result (Bryan Bouffier anyone?) but that's about it
I totally agree with the above - while there maybe 3/4 works teams, there could be another 20 privateers - all running in the top class. In Sardina at the weekend Rally2 Cars were 6-10 after the carnage of losing the Rally1 cars, and they do look awesome. Having Ford/Hyundai/Toyota all with Rally2 cars already then potentially Skoda & Citroen could join the party as they have competitive cars, it would have the potential to make the WRC more sustainable with lower costs and more frontline cars on stages. No privateer will beat a works car/driver even if the cars are exactly the same spec. Seat time and the ability to create a spec exactly to their liking will see to that. Remember the excitement when Mark Higgins was given a full works car for the RAC, loads of rally chat about how he would show them all. 6th OA I think and last of the Ford Works cars. A fantastic drive absolutely by probably the quickest British driver of recent-ish years to not get a full WRC opportunity but not quicker than the regular drivers. It would be closer sure and road positions might throw up the odd unusual result (Bryan Bouffier anyone?) but that's about it
Its good that the WRC are having driver forums to discuss the future with the crews, who have started to get quite vocal about the fact WRC needs some changes - led by Petter Solberg. Beyond the next 5 year cycle I would love to see WRC take the plunge and do Rally2 Hydrogen ICE. Toyota are well down that path at the moment, and it could be an interesting alternative zero emissions fuel of the future for the automotive industry, that could keep motorsport in a more traditional space. That's the longer future, I hope the WRC figure out what to do in the more short term.
The budget comes from speculating to accumulate. At the moment it comes form selling and then trying to get a tiny amount of people to pay a sub.
The alternative is to speculate, and then sell it to a tv station, but that has been flogged to death so they have no choice. They got themselves in this situation!
WRC coverage has been pushed around just about every channel it could on satellite and terrestrial over many years, probably sold by some clever sales people using figures right back to the McRae/Burns days over 20 years ago, and they all fell for it, until now. No-one wanted it. Especially after the RAC went away.
Buying a deal like that costs a lot of money, and then you advertise to try and recoup some of it and you do that by telling people who watch it, the types of people etc. if the numbers are low and they clearly were they sales people go elsewhere to flog it. And it gets passed around every few years like a hot potato. It is a poison chalice clearly.
it came to that, BT had a bunch of money around and two channels to fill so bought it as they did with lots of other things,
Red Bull have little to lose, think about it, who has won titles since they were involved, Loebm Red Bull, Ogier Red Bull Rovanpera, Red Bull, they can't lose really as the car or driver sponsor is plastered everywhere and for God;s sake don't tell me Red Bull media could not take a hit financially to try and get this coverage to more people freely instead of charging, they are made of money!
As for the billions spent on nonsense, what I mean is companies will happily throw money at anything if enough people watch it
The alternative is to speculate, and then sell it to a tv station, but that has been flogged to death so they have no choice. They got themselves in this situation!
WRC coverage has been pushed around just about every channel it could on satellite and terrestrial over many years, probably sold by some clever sales people using figures right back to the McRae/Burns days over 20 years ago, and they all fell for it, until now. No-one wanted it. Especially after the RAC went away.
Buying a deal like that costs a lot of money, and then you advertise to try and recoup some of it and you do that by telling people who watch it, the types of people etc. if the numbers are low and they clearly were they sales people go elsewhere to flog it. And it gets passed around every few years like a hot potato. It is a poison chalice clearly.
it came to that, BT had a bunch of money around and two channels to fill so bought it as they did with lots of other things,
Red Bull have little to lose, think about it, who has won titles since they were involved, Loebm Red Bull, Ogier Red Bull Rovanpera, Red Bull, they can't lose really as the car or driver sponsor is plastered everywhere and for God;s sake don't tell me Red Bull media could not take a hit financially to try and get this coverage to more people freely instead of charging, they are made of money!
As for the billions spent on nonsense, what I mean is companies will happily throw money at anything if enough people watch it
I stumbled across the ITV4 highlights of Sardinia yesterday - which I assume is still the WRC+ highlights?
First time I've watched the main feed highlights for some time, maybe a couple of years. From what I could tell, it hadn't really changed much in format, far too long at the start talking to drivers, then 95% of the coverage is WRC1 cars ( I guess they pay for it).
A couple of observations - there didn't seem to be much update on the cars, I don't mean this is a WRC1, I mean Toyota have brought X, or Hyundai Y. Indeed they could have pre told the Toyota dramas by mentioned induction heights and potential for drowning out.
Also the commentators (and I have no beef with them per se) kept banging on about the 50km Monte Lerno test. However in my opinion it failed to capture the drama because its the human element that makes the story not the difficultly of the challenge beyond a scene set. It'd be like talking about climbing Everest but only talking about the snow or it's height. We need to know the participants challenges.
Very little atmosphere shots too. Dirtfish via Colin did a good piece on YouTube where he caught up with Elfyn Evans as he tried to fix his car post water splash. That was more interesting.
So if the WRC+ producers read this
then start adding in 'behind the scenes', 'between the stages' competitor endeavours to make it more interesting.
First time I've watched the main feed highlights for some time, maybe a couple of years. From what I could tell, it hadn't really changed much in format, far too long at the start talking to drivers, then 95% of the coverage is WRC1 cars ( I guess they pay for it).
A couple of observations - there didn't seem to be much update on the cars, I don't mean this is a WRC1, I mean Toyota have brought X, or Hyundai Y. Indeed they could have pre told the Toyota dramas by mentioned induction heights and potential for drowning out.
Also the commentators (and I have no beef with them per se) kept banging on about the 50km Monte Lerno test. However in my opinion it failed to capture the drama because its the human element that makes the story not the difficultly of the challenge beyond a scene set. It'd be like talking about climbing Everest but only talking about the snow or it's height. We need to know the participants challenges.
Very little atmosphere shots too. Dirtfish via Colin did a good piece on YouTube where he caught up with Elfyn Evans as he tried to fix his car post water splash. That was more interesting.
So if the WRC+ producers read this
then start adding in 'behind the scenes', 'between the stages' competitor endeavours to make it more interesting.I think the issue there is you are asked to make a package that can be shows on national tv, perhaps an hour, when in fact probably only 40 minutes after ads, so that has to encompass everything! Aswell as telling the story of the event.
Post stage interviews are utterly futile, they rarely give us anything, unless something has happened in the stage, then they are useful, I cannot see the point in talking to a Tanak who gives you nothing, unless he has a crash or a puncture, then he will be animated or disappointed etc, otherwise pointless.
Most tv is generic
I was watching Le Mans footage earlier and the utter and complete obsession with anyone watching a monitor staggers me, it offers NOTHING it never has, yet for some reason these cretinous directors are still searching for reaction. They endlessly show you images of important people standing in the pit box, they maybe react 1 time out of 50, yet some poor sod has to stand there for all hours waiting for a director to go to him, yet at the same time a guy is setting purple sectors on track, I have never understood it and never will.
You are NOT making a film, a tv show, you are simply providing footage of a motor race, and the action, most of it is on the track, not in a pit box gormlessly looking at a monitor!
regarding rallying, check out the footage on Youtube of the Citroen guys repairing Lefebvres DS a few years ago and see how many views it has had, arguably more than anything WRC have put out altogether I imagine.
And that shows you want people want to see more of.
Dirtfish have the right ideas, but sadly for me Evans is involved and I literally hate the man so I don't watch it.
Post stage interviews are utterly futile, they rarely give us anything, unless something has happened in the stage, then they are useful, I cannot see the point in talking to a Tanak who gives you nothing, unless he has a crash or a puncture, then he will be animated or disappointed etc, otherwise pointless.
Most tv is generic
I was watching Le Mans footage earlier and the utter and complete obsession with anyone watching a monitor staggers me, it offers NOTHING it never has, yet for some reason these cretinous directors are still searching for reaction. They endlessly show you images of important people standing in the pit box, they maybe react 1 time out of 50, yet some poor sod has to stand there for all hours waiting for a director to go to him, yet at the same time a guy is setting purple sectors on track, I have never understood it and never will.
You are NOT making a film, a tv show, you are simply providing footage of a motor race, and the action, most of it is on the track, not in a pit box gormlessly looking at a monitor!
regarding rallying, check out the footage on Youtube of the Citroen guys repairing Lefebvres DS a few years ago and see how many views it has had, arguably more than anything WRC have put out altogether I imagine.
And that shows you want people want to see more of.
Dirtfish have the right ideas, but sadly for me Evans is involved and I literally hate the man so I don't watch it.
LastPoster said:
.....No privateer will beat a works car/driver even if the cars are exactly the same spec. Seat time and the ability to create a spec exactly to their liking will see to that....
.....It would be closer sure and road positions might throw up the odd unusual result (Bryan Bouffier anyone?) but that's about it
I almost agree with the first statement - the set-up, seat time etc etc will give the works drivers the advantage, however the second statement is much closer to the reality of a Rally2 class as the top level. Road position, road conditions, weather, so many factors could play into the hands of a talented driver. There are some wealthy organisations that may put the resources into a 'private' team that could challenge the works cars......It would be closer sure and road positions might throw up the odd unusual result (Bryan Bouffier anyone?) but that's about it
What I find disappointing is that the WRC cars are really a manufacturers championship - there just isn't the opportunity for anyone to drive a Rally1 car without being part of a works team. Think back to the GpA and very early WRC cars where private teams could build a car and compete in the same class. If the wealthy private entrant had the opportunity to enter a Rally1 car would they have been able to get on the podium in Italy because of the works car attrition?
Ranger 6 said:
What I find disappointing is that the WRC cars are really a manufacturers championship - there just isn't the opportunity for anyone to drive a Rally1 car without being part of a works team. Think back to the GpA and very early WRC cars where private teams could build a car and compete in the same class. If the wealthy private entrant had the opportunity to enter a Rally1 car would they have been able to get on the podium in Italy because of the works car attrition?
I assume that the FiA, WRC Promoter and the current teams (all 3 of them) don't want others running top class cars. It's a choice they've made, R1 cars are the 'halo' category......and obviously the cost of running them stops this.As you say, late Gp A, early WRC would see Private teams running top class cars; RED, Grifone, Toyota Team Sweden, RAS, Mike Little, Gordon Spooner and many others....and during the time Ford's WRC effort was run from Boreham, a certain team from Cumbria (MWMotorsport as it was then) ran Cosworths, and Kytolehto got a podium on the 1996 1,000 Lakes - a result which helped to get the new M-Sport team the Ford contract.
This has been discussed before on here, amongst other things, and sadly, nothing ever changes.....those running the WRC are it's worst enemy. And made worse when other series seem to be growing.....
It’s kind of the point I’m making really. A talented privateer won’t beat a works driver when all other things are equal. A combination of things that disadvantage the works driver such as any of those above might make it happen though. I just don’t see a ‘driver X would show them but he isn’t allowed an equal car as the works drivers/team don’t like being being shown up’ scenario
There is another way surprise results could occur. A friend of mine used to work for a decent sized team. When the funding for their main rally operation stopped they looked at some options. One was to take an IRC spec car of the period and completely re-engineer it within the bounds of the regulations. The engineers were sure they could beat the works backed team. The team management wouldn’t fund it unfortunately
There is another way surprise results could occur. A friend of mine used to work for a decent sized team. When the funding for their main rally operation stopped they looked at some options. One was to take an IRC spec car of the period and completely re-engineer it within the bounds of the regulations. The engineers were sure they could beat the works backed team. The team management wouldn’t fund it unfortunately
And we all know nothing will change; there has to be the will from those at the top......Recent history has shown us whenever they decide to make changes, they tend to get it wrong.
A championship with only 3 manufacturers ( really only 2.5 ) shouldn't be having so many rounds all around the world. How are they paying for it? The WEC has far more manufacturers, yet has less than 10 rounds.......
Somebody on Twitter was asking about the WRC finances a few days ago; hoping Dirtfish and/or Autosport may do some digging.....not going to happen.
A championship with only 3 manufacturers ( really only 2.5 ) shouldn't be having so many rounds all around the world. How are they paying for it? The WEC has far more manufacturers, yet has less than 10 rounds.......
Somebody on Twitter was asking about the WRC finances a few days ago; hoping Dirtfish and/or Autosport may do some digging.....not going to happen.
Dirtfish have money but that not that kind, running a series is very expensive and it is not guaranteed to make money.
WRC needs to accept what it is, a sport that is not sellable to a tv audience in the way it has been, it is a sport, more than any other i think that HAS to be seen live and in that format it is popular, great and alive.
This expectation that it HAS to be on tv is wrong, it ONLY works in this country when there are Brits, and Brits we want to like up front and winning. Elfyn is a Brit of course but a bit like Coulthard in F1 people do not warm to him, not his fault or his problem. But a Mcrae was easy to like, it is that simple. And he won, and he had rivals, and he had a Brit who was as quick as him for a time to make copy even easier to sell. People like Dirtfish and Evans have been living off that for years.
WRC needs to accept what it is, a sport that is not sellable to a tv audience in the way it has been, it is a sport, more than any other i think that HAS to be seen live and in that format it is popular, great and alive.
This expectation that it HAS to be on tv is wrong, it ONLY works in this country when there are Brits, and Brits we want to like up front and winning. Elfyn is a Brit of course but a bit like Coulthard in F1 people do not warm to him, not his fault or his problem. But a Mcrae was easy to like, it is that simple. And he won, and he had rivals, and he had a Brit who was as quick as him for a time to make copy even easier to sell. People like Dirtfish and Evans have been living off that for years.
ArnageWRC said:
It's yet another event that used to be in the BRC, and no longer is. It's also moved from its usual date of late April/ early May......
I think it put all it's eggs in the BTRDA basket, which is a bit risky because traditionally that championship doesn't hasn't had a northern focus. Now that Kielder and the Border Counties are in it, perhaps things will change. But fundamentally, there seem to be too many rallies and not enough competitors/money.
Even the Argyll has lower entries, 115 on the latest list versus a maximum on 140. The last two years this ran on closed roads it was significantly over-subscribed. It is part of two well-supported championships (SRC and Protyre) so something is happening to prevent people going.......
The Chris Kelly / ex-Pokerstars on the Isle of Man has been called off for this year, the statements mentioned something about focussing on 2024-25-26 for rallying on the Isle of Man as a whole. Reading between the lines, and being an optimist, I am really hoping that means the return of International rallying to the island. Saying that, the recent Manx National (Protyre round) had a cracking entry and proved to be an exciting watch.
I guess one big test of the financial health will be the new South Yorkshire Stages rally (9th / 10th Dec 2023) on closed roads. Most (maybe all?) of the new closed road rallies have been well-supported. This one comes at the end of the season, not long after Mull and the Roger Albert Clark, not long before Christmas, from a club without multi-venue organising experience (although individual members do have plenty) - if ever there was a test case for the health of the sport, I feel this is it!
Talking of the BTRDA series, here's a list of the usual championship calendar from 20 odd years ago:
Wyedean - Forest of Dean - early February
Malcolm Wilson - Lake District - early March
North Humberside - Yorkshire forests - late March/early April
Somerset - Exmoor - mid/late April
Red Dragon - South Wales - mid/late May
Dukeries - Nottinghamshire - early June
Nicky Grist/Quinton - Epynt/Mid Wales - early July
Woodpecker - Shropshire/ Welsh Borders - late August/ early September
Plains - Mid Wales - mid September
Cambrian - North Wales - late October/ early November.
Only five are still in the championship, others exist in other ways (single venue), and two no longer exist.
Something else I've realised, is the absence of South Wales forestry events; events such as Swansea Bay, Neath Valley Stages, etc
Wyedean - Forest of Dean - early February
Malcolm Wilson - Lake District - early March
North Humberside - Yorkshire forests - late March/early April
Somerset - Exmoor - mid/late April
Red Dragon - South Wales - mid/late May
Dukeries - Nottinghamshire - early June
Nicky Grist/Quinton - Epynt/Mid Wales - early July
Woodpecker - Shropshire/ Welsh Borders - late August/ early September
Plains - Mid Wales - mid September
Cambrian - North Wales - late October/ early November.
Only five are still in the championship, others exist in other ways (single venue), and two no longer exist.
Something else I've realised, is the absence of South Wales forestry events; events such as Swansea Bay, Neath Valley Stages, etc
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