2023 rallying thread (WRC, ERC, national and historics)

[GravelBen]

Paddon has become the first non-European driver to win the ERC, taking the championship with a round to go despite retiring from Ziln this weekend - closest title contender Sesks needed a top 6 finish plus powerstage points to have any chance, but finished 12th.

It has been a super consistent season for Paddon, this is the first time he hasn't been on the podium.


After ripping a rear wheel off and having to retire, he rebuilt it on the side of the stage anyway so he could drive the car to the finish line ceremony.

[ArnageWRC]

A well deserved title; he has driven well, and smartly all season - collecting points. Ironic that he wins the title on the event he didn't finish.

And first non European - although it has been mentioned that Simon Jean-Joseph won the ERC, he's from Martinique, but is French.

[ArnageWRC]

The entry list for Rali Ceredigion is out; no Fourmaux, but M-Sport will send a Puma for demo runs around Aberystwyth.

https://www.raliceredigion.co.uk/files/2023-rali-c...

[lee-roi93]

thepawbroon said:

ArnageWRC said:

I'm glad somebody else brought this up, as I've seen it mentioned elsewhere. There were hardly any mainland drivers going over to Ulster......

I think at the moment, most UK drivers are just happy with a one day 45 mile event. Anything else costs more and/or requires time off work........And the BRC isn't what they want.....

I really have no idea what the solution is......

I've no idea either, but I observe that the Protyre BTRDA tarmac (2+ days inc recce) and SRC (6 Forest 1 day rallies and 2 closed road 2 day inc recce) are both well supported.

It seems that they both have a good set up where the crews, organisers, sponsors, locals and media are well integrated.

I think the BTRDA Forest champ still gets lots of crews?

Both Mull and Rali Ceredigion have attracted less-than-full entries so far. I reckon Ceredigion will be well-supported financially without full reliance on entry fees. For Mull, I wouldn't be sure that their current entry level is sustainable.

So - things are patchy all over. Who knows where it's going?

The buzz seems to have gone out of clubman rallying for most of us. The cost to maintain and run the cars along with the hike of fuel & tyres is enough to put anyone off, that on top of entry fees of £800 < £1200 its hard going

[Drumroll]

ArnageWRC said:

The entry list for Rali Ceredigion is out; no Fourmaux, but M-Sport will send a Puma for demo runs around Aberystwyth.

https://www.raliceredigion.co.uk/files/2023-rali-c...

Looking forward to this.

[epom]

Drumroll said:

ArnageWRC said:

The entry list for Rali Ceredigion is out; no Fourmaux, but M-Sport will send a Puma for demo runs around Aberystwyth.

https://www.raliceredigion.co.uk/files/2023-rali-c...

Looking forward to this.

A few Evans'ssss out in this

[fttm]

Osian Pryce to win ^ , one interesting entry is car 60 , Phil Mills celebrating his 60th birthday driving a Twin Cam with his son on the notes .

Edited by fttm on Monday 4th September 01:53

[fttm]

......................... and Pryce won at a canter , different league .Watching the highlights on YT and it's all pops and bangs from the top R5s all in the same mundane place , finally maybe after 15 cars you could hear the rasp of a BDA in the distance which woke me up .

[ArnageWRC]

Pryce won, and seemingly comfortably, though Meirion Evans lost 40 secs on stage 2 with a puncture, and his stage times were quick. James Williams won the BRC event in the i20 Rally2.

And there is the problem; only a handful of crews were actually 'registered' for the BRC points......I'd love to know what benefits registering for the BRC actually brings.....as I can't really see any. If you enter a BRC event, you should get points....

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

fttm said:

......................... and Pryce won at a canter , different league .Watching the highlights on YT and it's all pops and bangs from the top R5s all in the same mundane place , finally maybe after 15 cars you could hear the rasp of a BDA in the distance which woke me up

right there is where the problem with rallying is.

[thepawbroon]

ArnageWRC said:

Pryce won, and seemingly comfortably, though Meirion Evans lost 40 secs on stage 2 with a puncture, and his stage times were quick. James Williams won the BRC event in the i20 Rally2.

And there is the problem; only a handful of crews were actually 'registered' for the BRC points......I'd love to know what benefits registering for the BRC actually brings.....as I can't really see any. If you enter a BRC event, you should get points....

On the surface - registration brings you publicity funded/managed by the championship.

But nowadays, events and competitors / teams are much, much better at the publicity aspect than the BRC are.

And winning the BRC doesn't bring you anything, whereas at least winning JBRC brings some form of prize drive / funding.

Rali Ceredigion will soon be part of the European Rally Championship (ERC), that I am sure. It's a brilliant event, great roads, great org team and sponsors.

I'm not really sure where the BRC can fit in, perhaps if it is repositioned as a feeder to ERC then it might prosper. The next level down in GB are doing well (Protyre Asphalt, BTRDA Gravel, Scottish Championships) but they are generally won by drivers who are already past the age where they can progress ultimately to WRC. So they don't look at BRC as the next step up.

Fundamentally, there are too many rallies/championships and too much reliance on BDA Escorts, for BRC to prosper as a stand-alone R5/Rally2 series.

[Drumroll]

fttm said:

......................... and Pryce won at a canter , different league .Watching the highlights on YT and it's all pops and bangs from the top R5s all in the same mundane place , finally maybe after 15 cars you could hear the rasp of a BDA in the distance which woke me up .

If you think the top guys were mundane your YT feed must be slow. It is unbelievable how fast the top guys are* they looked like they were on rails when they came past us yesterday on a sharp right. Now you may not like that the cars are not throwing their tails out, but you can't say they are mundane.

• Speaking to Neil Roskell (fiesta rally 2) he was saying the car is at it's best when driven flat out as that is when the aerodynamics work at their best. pushing the car into the road.

Now considering how narrow some of the roads were over the weekend that is some achievement. That doesn't leave much room for error, as Neil and codriver Andrew Roughead found out as they overshot (went through) the bails just up from us, forcing him to retire.

Edited by Drumroll on Monday 4th September 10:47

[ArnageWRC]

thepawbroon said:

Fundamentally, there are too many rallies/championships and too much reliance on BDA Escorts, for BRC to prosper as a stand-alone R5/Rally2 series.

Yes, I'm afraid so. I recall 20 years ago, we had BRC, ANCRO & BTRDA as major championships - and all had decent entries......Now we have the BTRDA, plus the Protyre Tarmac series....ANCRO has gone, and the BRC is a pale shadow. I think we need fewer, but higher quality events, possibly by amalgamating events in a similar area - but how many clubs will accept that?

And the Escort is a major problem, whether in Historics, clubman/National events......None of the other countries have this obsession (and it is an obsession) with this car.

[thepawbroon]

ArnageWRC said:

And the Escort is a major problem, whether in Historics, clubman/National events......None of the other countries have this obsession (and it is an obsession) with this car.

The obsession is fundamentally related to section R48.9.1 of the Blue Book, which allows cars from 1981 or before to have a 200 kg weight advantage but without other restrictions like engine swaps, materials, technical development / modifications nor power output. An RS1800 in 1977 gave about 115bhp in 1800cc road form and maybe 260-270 bhp in ultimate homologated period 2000cc Gp4 form. Nowadays, you see Mk2s for sale with 350bhp from a 2500cc Millington engine.

[DelicaL400]

ArnageWRC said:

f you enter a BRC event, you should get points....

There's no such thing as a BRC event though. The BRC attaches itself to events that are already running. Perhaps if MSUK actually ran BRC events they would be more inclined to try and get more than 7 entries. I reckon the asphalt championship will become the BRC next year.

[thepawbroon]

DelicaL400 said:

There's no such thing as a BRC event though. The BRC attaches itself to events that are already running. Perhaps if MSUK actually ran BRC events they would be more inclined to try and get more than 7 entries. I reckon the asphalt championship will become the BRC next year.

I wouldn't be surprised - are there any really good tarmac events that are not already part of Protyre Asphalt?

[andy97]

thepawbroon said:

ArnageWRC said:

And the Escort is a major problem, whether in Historics, clubman/National events......None of the other countries have this obsession (and it is an obsession) with this car.

The obsession is fundamentally related to section R48.9.1 of the Blue Book, which allows cars from 1981 or before to have a 200 kg weight advantage but without other restrictions like engine swaps, materials, technical development / modifications nor power output. An RS1800 in 1977 gave about 115bhp in 1800cc road form and maybe 260-270 bhp in ultimate homologated period 2000cc Gp4 form. Nowadays, you see Mk2s for sale with 350bhp from a 2500cc Millington engine.

I don’t think that Escorts are the problem per se, their rightful place is in historics (or even in a “club classic” class for cars that don’t meet homologation but which have OEM engines and gearboxes)
but I do agree that having rules which allow engine swaps and sequential gearboxes is ridiculous.
It means the sport will always find it difficult to move on.
It’s difficult to outlaw cars that already exist, but I would only allow such cars to be in their own “special saloons” type class and not eligible for overall wins or to enter certain lower club level rallies.
There needs to be much more encouragement for more modern cars such as small capacity turbo fwd cars etc. and a separation out of older cars and the “facsimiles” of Escorts!
The AWMMC Heart of England championship is trying to to do this to a certain extent by including classes, in addition to the “normal” class structure, specifically for:
- Club Classic - pre 1988, 2wd, OEM engines, h-pattern gearboxes and no remote canister suspension.
- Class T - Post 2000, <1600cc forced induction 2wd cars.
Not sure of any other clubs that have taken this approach.

Edited by andy97 on Monday 4th September 17:48

[ArnageWRC]

Yes, Escorts belong in Historics; the modern ones with trick suspension, sequential boxes, etc need to be classed as a modern car, and get BoP'd....whether with weight and/or restrictors.

[andy97]

ArnageWRC said:

Yes, Escorts belong in Historics; the modern ones with trick suspension, sequential boxes, etc need to be classed as a modern car, and get BoP'd....whether with weight and/or restrictors.

Agreed, but there are intermediate cars which are not historic spec and which are not “modern spec” either,
For full disclosure, I have a Pinto Escort with an H-pattern box. It’s not historic spec as it has non homologated disc brakes all round and power steering; it’s a good club level spec car of the sort that was rallied by loads of people in the 1980s but would cost an absolute fortune to make in to historic spec. I knew all this when I bought it!
In circuit racing there are numerous series for such club level cars but in rallying you are either historic spec or modern spec and nothing in between.
It is why I am delighted the the AWMMC Heart of England Championship has a “club classic” class for such cars, and I really think that more clubs should adopt this sort of approach.

[thepawbroon]

andy97 said:

ArnageWRC said:

Yes, Escorts belong in Historics; the modern ones with trick suspension, sequential boxes, etc need to be classed as a modern car, and get BoP'd....whether with weight and/or restrictors.

Agreed, but there are intermediate cars which are not historic spec and which are not “modern spec” either,
For full disclosure, I have a Pinto Escort with an H-pattern box. It’s not historic spec as it has non homologated disc brakes all round and power steering; it’s a good club level spec car of the sort that was rallied by loads of people in the 1980s but would cost an absolute fortune to make in to historic spec. I knew all this when I bought it!
In circuit racing there are numerous series for such club level cars but in rallying you are either historic spec or modern spec and nothing in between.
It is why I am delighted the the AWMMC Heart of England Championship has a “club classic” class for such cars, and I really think that more clubs should adopt this sort of approach.

It wouldn't take much to write a set of rules for that, but there's no willingness. The horse has bolted anyway.

And it's cultural, someone in a "Mk2" swapping times with an R5 is seen as a hero, even if that "Mk2" is lighter, more powerful, has bespoke suspension, launch control, seq box with flat shift / paddle shift, 17" wheels, is perfectly weight balanced thanks to exotic materials and costs more than the R5.