2022 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and national rally)
Discussion
Drumroll said:
Ranger 6 said:
thepawbroon said:
avenger286 said:
So more importantly than all the wrc stuff, it's Mull rally week!
Been on the island since Friday unfortunately not competing. Weather is very changeable in typical Mull fashion yesterday it pissed it down most of the day and glorious sunshine today.
Shame some of the brc runners ain't back but Duffy is back in a mk2 so not all is lost.
Should be a good one, I'm arriving tomorrow evening and co-driving Car 24.Been on the island since Friday unfortunately not competing. Weather is very changeable in typical Mull fashion yesterday it pissed it down most of the day and glorious sunshine today.
Shame some of the brc runners ain't back but Duffy is back in a mk2 so not all is lost.
Re: the weather - they have rearranged scrutineering times to avoid the marquee getting blown away on Friday morning!
Ranger 6 said:
andy97 said:
More importantly than the Mull or WRC stuff, I had an enjoyable run out in my “dinosaur spec” Escort at 3 Sisters kart track on Sunday, in the Adgespeed rally, a round of the AWMMC Heart of England rally championship, amongst others.
It was great how much interest there was in a narrow bodied, Pinto powered, h-pattern ‘box equipped car?
“Not proper rallying” I hear. I don’t care it was a well organised and fun club level event (& even then it had a couple of R5s and a 6R4 entered!) with a good paddock atmosphere.
Sounds like a great eventIt was great how much interest there was in a narrow bodied, Pinto powered, h-pattern ‘box equipped car?
“Not proper rallying” I hear. I don’t care it was a well organised and fun club level event (& even then it had a couple of R5s and a 6R4 entered!) with a good paddock atmosphere.
It's things like this that the sport needs to keep the grass roots elements going. Shame we're losjingmore and more venues as each year passes.
At the front end there are the aforementioned R5s, Darrians, and modern spec Escorts etc but there are also plenty of more accessible and affordable cars taking part like Ford Focus, modern Mini, MX5 and Nissan Micra etc.
It’s also good for spectators.
More people should give it a go because it is great fun, and for rallying to work well, even at BRC or WRC level you need a very broad base to the pyramid! And I doubt that anyone decides to take up rallying and goes straight to Mull!!!
Absolutely, for a strong & healthy sport, you need a good base of the pyramid - we don't really have that in rallying in the UK. I think Jon (the thread starter) has been advocating rally track days for a while; as a good way to get into the sport, and so are these clubmen level circuit/single venue events.
One would like to see the MSUK be a bit more proactive.....
One would like to see the MSUK be a bit more proactive.....
ArnageWRC said:
Absolutely, for a strong & healthy sport, you need a good base of the pyramid - we don't really have that in rallying in the UK. I think Jon (the thread starter) has been advocating rally track days for a while; as a good way to get into the sport, and so are these clubmen level circuit/single venue events.
One would like to see the MSUK be a bit more proactive.....
Jon and I are aligned in many of our views.One would like to see the MSUK be a bit more proactive.....
It’s disappointing when people malign the circuit type rallies, or even single venue airfield stuff, as realistically these are the best ways in to the sport, and are quite accessible and affordable in motorsport terms.
It is also disappointing when the viability of events is threatened by late withdrawals and people expecting refunds etc. The event last Sunday had several late withdrawals (despite an initial full entry and reserves) and so 51 eventually took part out of a max entry of 60. Nine withdrawals is nearly £2000 in income lost and that is the difference between a small surplus, breaking even and a loss. Small clubs cannot stand that sort of loss and so then they question whether they should continue with events like this.
People moan that we don’t have a WRC round in the U.K. any more, but it’s more important in my view to have a broad base of grass roots events for people to actually enter.
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 13th October 11:08
I have attended lots of circuit rallies and the only reason I dislike them a bit is that they are just sort of sprints with clocks and timing. It is a rally in name only, the cars are pretty much as asphalt spec as you can get, there is no real mixture of surfaces to speak of on most of them to the point where you started seeing cars that would have been largely unusable on normal rallies.
A single venue for me is the ultimate in grass roots, they should be cheap to enter, with either one surface or more usually broken up asphalt or concrete airfield roads, so you need more skill, better ides on setup and the ability to read the road and surfaces more.
A circuit rally, good though they are for certain people, and for fans, just became literally sprints with clocks and two people in the car.
Also MSV started to realise there was money to be made so started charging fans more and more to attend, which is a business decision clearly, I have no idea what entry fees for crews were like, but would be shocked to find they were going up and up too.
A single venue for me is the ultimate in grass roots, they should be cheap to enter, with either one surface or more usually broken up asphalt or concrete airfield roads, so you need more skill, better ides on setup and the ability to read the road and surfaces more.
A circuit rally, good though they are for certain people, and for fans, just became literally sprints with clocks and two people in the car.
Also MSV started to realise there was money to be made so started charging fans more and more to attend, which is a business decision clearly, I have no idea what entry fees for crews were like, but would be shocked to find they were going up and up too.
For me, the circuit rally events are a great intro to the sport, and they should be seen as that.
They are competitive and fun in their own right, and give good experience of how rallies are organised and run. They are accessible and affordable.
The next step for me will be to do something like the AGBO at Weston Park and then an airfield type single venue. Would I have gone straight to the AGBO or an event at, say, Twyford, without doing a circuit rally first? I doubt it.
The circuit rallies should be seen as the broad base of the rally pyramid that leads people gently in to the sport, and then gives them the confidence to move on if they wish. Much like the “Trackday Trophy” does for the racing fraternity - it helps people transition from track days to racing. Look at it context and it works really well; if you are not interested, fine, don’t go or don’t take part but don’t knock it, the circuit rallies have helped me and others get in to this aspect of the sport.
People go Sprinting, but you don’t see people generally saying,”oh it’s not racing/ rallying/ whatever therefore I am not interested” but the circuit rallies get knocked for providing something that isn’t available easily elsewhere. And believe me, as someone that has been involved in club racing for approx 20 years, it is very difficult to find out virtually anything about rallying unless you already know someone involved.
They are competitive and fun in their own right, and give good experience of how rallies are organised and run. They are accessible and affordable.
The next step for me will be to do something like the AGBO at Weston Park and then an airfield type single venue. Would I have gone straight to the AGBO or an event at, say, Twyford, without doing a circuit rally first? I doubt it.
The circuit rallies should be seen as the broad base of the rally pyramid that leads people gently in to the sport, and then gives them the confidence to move on if they wish. Much like the “Trackday Trophy” does for the racing fraternity - it helps people transition from track days to racing. Look at it context and it works really well; if you are not interested, fine, don’t go or don’t take part but don’t knock it, the circuit rallies have helped me and others get in to this aspect of the sport.
People go Sprinting, but you don’t see people generally saying,”oh it’s not racing/ rallying/ whatever therefore I am not interested” but the circuit rallies get knocked for providing something that isn’t available easily elsewhere. And believe me, as someone that has been involved in club racing for approx 20 years, it is very difficult to find out virtually anything about rallying unless you already know someone involved.
The other thing about rallying, is that lots of people go on about “proper rallying” and by that they usually mean multi-venue forestry/ gravel rallies and I get that, but they were in their pomp in the 70s and 80s and things evolve.
Let’s also be clear that when rallying started, in the early days it was largely long navigational rallies like the present day “Le Jog”, indeed I would argue that the road rallies and even current Targa rallies are more like “proper rallying” as it was originally invented than any forestry/ gravel/ SV event ever has been, so let’s not pretend that there is only one type of “proper rallying, it’s a very broad church with lots of sub elements and each should be encouraged as such.
Let’s also be clear that when rallying started, in the early days it was largely long navigational rallies like the present day “Le Jog”, indeed I would argue that the road rallies and even current Targa rallies are more like “proper rallying” as it was originally invented than any forestry/ gravel/ SV event ever has been, so let’s not pretend that there is only one type of “proper rallying, it’s a very broad church with lots of sub elements and each should be encouraged as such.
My issue is not with the events, or the sentiment, it is only a minor thing and this has been backed up by talking to drivers and that is if you rally all types of events, you almost need two sorts of cars, one for circuit rallies, one for single venues, multi venue. Of courser that is somewhat of an exaggeration, but you get the gyst. As an intro to rallying, navigation at a basic level, pace notes they are great. And they, in certain locations are popular with fans. But they are very much one type of rallying.
I would agree that targa, road rallying is the best way to learn, but that is ofen very area limited, as are speed events to certain UK areas.
I would agree that targa, road rallying is the best way to learn, but that is ofen very area limited, as are speed events to certain UK areas.
The reason some of us go on about Mull is that it is so different to anything else. It is difficult to explain until you have come up here to do it (currently sat in a queue waiting to board a ferry onto the island) For me it is still the best rally in the world. That does not mean I don't enjoy other rallies be it closed road, forests single venues or circuits. I will always promote and support all types of rallying including road and targas, but of all the events I do Mull is the one I really look forward to. At 03:00 on Sunday morning when I still haven't got back to my digs it might be a different story(till the ferry home).
andy97 said:
The other thing about rallying, is that lots of people go on about “proper rallying”.
If there were ever a phrase that annoys me it would be this one, along with Proper Drivers and Proper CarsThe Old Rally Photos groups on Facebook are full of it. There was a post the other day of an Anglia setting off on the Gulf London or something. One of the posters came out with the usual Proper Car and stated that most of today's cars would be out by the end of the first day. What a load of rubbish, if you took a modern car and drove it at the pace and with the grip level and stage conditions that the Anglia saw, it would arrive back at the finish without breaking a sweat. Might be different for the drivers, but they can only compete on what is there for them to enter.
LastPoster said:
andy97 said:
The other thing about rallying, is that lots of people go on about “proper rallying”.
If there were ever a phrase that annoys me it would be this one, along with Proper Drivers and Proper CarsThe Old Rally Photos groups on Facebook are full of it. There was a post the other day of an Anglia setting off on the Gulf London or something. One of the posters came out with the usual Proper Car and stated that most of today's cars would be out by the end of the first day. What a load of rubbish, if you took a modern car and drove it at the pace and with the grip level and stage conditions that the Anglia saw, it would arrive back at the finish without breaking a sweat. Might be different for the drivers, but they can only compete on what is there for them to enter.
I sort of get the point about proper rally cars, but to me a proper rallying escort is a stick shift and perhaps a pinto engine. Not a quick shift and god knows what engine. Doesn't stop the actual cars being quick and spectacular but they are not escorts as the should be.
Perhaps dinosaur escort is the way to go.
Perhaps dinosaur escort is the way to go.
Edited by Drumroll on Thursday 13th October 18:37
Drumroll said:
I sort of get the point about proper rally cars, but to me a proper rallying escort is a stick shift and perhaps a pinto engine. Not a quick shift and god knows what engine. Doesn't stop the actual cars being quick and spectacular but they are not escorts as the should be.
Perhaps dinosaur escort is the way to go.
You are speaking my language.Perhaps dinosaur escort is the way to go.
Edited by Drumroll on Thursday 13th October 18:37
The “modern spec Escorts” are facsimiles of Escorts really - great cars and great engineering but they should compete in their own “special saloons” category, because thats what they are.
Interesting that you use the term “dinosaur Escort” because thats what i call mine:
If you look closely, you will see that very phrase on the windscreen sticker of my car!
In my view the MSA/ MSUK made a mistake in keeping rules that allow old, very light cars like Escorts to be fitted with sequential gearboxes (even paddle shift in some cases), modern spec engines and multi adjustable remote canister dampers etc. That is why i have started a FB group called the “Classic Rally Car Register” (CRCR)( have a look on FB) to try to encourage the use of what i have termed “club classic” rally cars, ie cars that may not be to proper “historic spec” but are to a standard and use the technology that a club level competitor might have used back in the day.
The AWMMC Heart of England Rally championship adopted this idea as a class in 2022 (for which i am a small sponsor) and, previously, the MSVR/MSN circuit rally championship combined “proper” historic cars with “club classic” cars in their “classic rally car” class.
Fundamentally there is no point at all in me being in the same class as a “modern spec 2 litre Escort” when i am in a Pinto powered, H-pattern box equipped 150 bhp narrow bodied car, but that's what happens.
Hopefully things will start to change and rally organisers (and the MSUK) will start to encourage older technology cars to compete in their own classes and modern cars to compete in theirs!
I have to admit I am not massively over keen on clicky box Escorts, you look in the cab and it is all carbon this and that, paddle shift, 370 hp All ally Millington up front, weighing next to nothing. Pretty much the same as or more cost wise as a brand new R5! It's no shock a well driven one can win rallies more power, less weight than an R5.
But they are amazing bits of kit, developed to such a level that on a MSV rallies they were contenders for victory until the proper r5 crews came along.
I do also wish that the RAC has a spectator day with an invitation class for 4wd stuff, not the overall event, keep that as is, it works, even though it is a bit of shame it's now a Mk2 fest up front, but have some more varied stuff running on a weekend, some runs in stately homes, I am sure it would be popular with fans.
It's a great event if a little typically GB stuffy at times, but the real success of retro rallying is this weekend in Italy, that event we can only dream of over here, mainly as the Italians let the fans be proper fans, the atmosphere is something unheard of here apart from the McRae days, yet is is well run, relatively safe although there was a crash a few years ago when it was wet and a car went into a bale and it hit fans, but when you think how bonkers fans are there, in terms of support and cheering on their heroes, I yearn for an event like that over here in some ways. But it will never happen sadly, the powers that be would never really allow it. Yet it works there. and in a lesser way in Germany and Spain and every now and then France.
But they are amazing bits of kit, developed to such a level that on a MSV rallies they were contenders for victory until the proper r5 crews came along.
I do also wish that the RAC has a spectator day with an invitation class for 4wd stuff, not the overall event, keep that as is, it works, even though it is a bit of shame it's now a Mk2 fest up front, but have some more varied stuff running on a weekend, some runs in stately homes, I am sure it would be popular with fans.
It's a great event if a little typically GB stuffy at times, but the real success of retro rallying is this weekend in Italy, that event we can only dream of over here, mainly as the Italians let the fans be proper fans, the atmosphere is something unheard of here apart from the McRae days, yet is is well run, relatively safe although there was a crash a few years ago when it was wet and a car went into a bale and it hit fans, but when you think how bonkers fans are there, in terms of support and cheering on their heroes, I yearn for an event like that over here in some ways. But it will never happen sadly, the powers that be would never really allow it. Yet it works there. and in a lesser way in Germany and Spain and every now and then France.
You guys all speak a lot of sense - back to Mull (briefly) here's a photo which makes me very happy - our rally team ready to go - driver Doug Weir who's now 30 years into his Mull Rally and myself from the codriver's seat, only 25 years!
One of our sponsors - Brown's shop in Tobermory, which my sister and her husband had recently taken over.
Our extended team of mechanics, friends, family members and dogs, which can trace its roots back to Robert Gordon's Institute of Technology HND Engineering class of 1986 and Aberdeen & District Motor Club. One of our team has come over from Houston, TX especially.
There are two married couples in this photo who were brought together by the rally, which kind of sums up the event - it's considerably more than a series of stages against the clock.
One of our sponsors - Brown's shop in Tobermory, which my sister and her husband had recently taken over.
Our extended team of mechanics, friends, family members and dogs, which can trace its roots back to Robert Gordon's Institute of Technology HND Engineering class of 1986 and Aberdeen & District Motor Club. One of our team has come over from Houston, TX especially.
There are two married couples in this photo who were brought together by the rally, which kind of sums up the event - it's considerably more than a series of stages against the clock.
thepawbroon said:
You guys all speak a lot of sense - back to Mull (briefly) here's a photo which makes me very happy - our rally team ready to go - driver Doug Weir who's now 30 years into his Mull Rally and myself from the codriver's seat, only 25 years!
One of our sponsors - Brown's shop in Tobermory, which my sister and her husband had recently taken over.
Our extended team of mechanics, friends, family members and dogs, which can trace its roots back to Robert Gordon's Institute of Technology HND Engineering class of 1986 and Aberdeen & District Motor Club. One of our team has come over from Houston, TX especially.
There are two married couples in this photo who were brought together by the rally, which kind of sums up the event - it's considerably more than a series of stages against the clock.
Good luck and enjoy. Hope it goes well for you all.One of our sponsors - Brown's shop in Tobermory, which my sister and her husband had recently taken over.
Our extended team of mechanics, friends, family members and dogs, which can trace its roots back to Robert Gordon's Institute of Technology HND Engineering class of 1986 and Aberdeen & District Motor Club. One of our team has come over from Houston, TX especially.
There are two married couples in this photo who were brought together by the rally, which kind of sums up the event - it's considerably more than a series of stages against the clock.
What’s the spec of your car please?
thepawbroon said:
andy97 said:
Good luck and enjoy. Hope it goes well for you all.
What’s the spec of your car please?
What’s the spec of your car please?
Thank you!
It's got a 2.0 Vauxhall engine, about 245 bhp from memory, and a Quaiffe 6 speed sequential box. No paddle shift nor carbon fibre!
Let us know how it goes.
andy97 said:
thepawbroon said:
andy97 said:
Good luck and enjoy. Hope it goes well for you all.
What’s the spec of your car please?
What’s the spec of your car please?
Thank you!
It's got a 2.0 Vauxhall engine, about 245 bhp from memory, and a Quaiffe 6 speed sequential box. No paddle shift nor carbon fibre!
Let us know how it goes.
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