RE: INEOS Grenadier officially unveiled

[55palfers]

2xChevrons said:

oilit said:

Indeed...

I wonder if the original Mini was trademarked ? Maybe it's something to do with the age of the product that IP (Intellectual Property) just wasn't viewed as important as it is today ?

It's interesting that if you search under morris cars or austin you don't find anything - first entries seem to be in the 1970's with British Leyland.

The Mini shape/silhouette was trademarked, but not until the 1990s when Rover (under BMW) began properly leveraging the Mini's lifestyle/fashion status and its value as 'a Mini' - when you started getting Coopers with wood dashboards and leather seats and foglalamps and Union Jack-painted roofs from the factory, and when they were selling them abroad for the same price as a Porsche 911.

It's seeing the value and cachet in the design, arguably something LR should have done in the early 2000s when the Defender underwent a similar shift in image.

The searches you're getting probably relate to the time when 'Mini' was created as a marque in its own right rather than as a model of Austin or Morris.

The Chinese always take a great deal of notice when it come to IP rights.....

https://driving.ca/lexus/auto-news/entertainment/t...

[AngryPartsBloke]

Water Fairy said:

My first thought was if a start up can produce this why couldn't LR modify the old Defender accordingly to keep its classic in production?

Can we drop this Idea of a start-up? Jim Ratcliffe is worth over $15B and the Ineos PETchem group has revenue of $80B+

[sisu]

Is this going to tow the new TVR all the PH'ers have on order?

I feel this is out of touch and in the wrong market. If you had said they are going to leap frog the market by offering a Rivian style electric based offroader that looks like a Land Rover they would have had a better future.
Much like the problem Bentley has with the Flying Spur/Mulsanne building Uber sedans that arent selling. If you were to start the company from scratch today would you chose a 2020 Flying Spur as a start?
This is going to get lost in a dwindling market where it lacks the size that people who want a Bro Dozer and where the company it is aping has launched a new product.

[chelme]

This, as a 3D rendering looks okay. The car in the metal as photographed has not looked as good as this. Its unlikely to have the stance of this rendering. But I supoose it can be made to look like this with additional mods.

Anyhoo, I'd rather buy the real thing, not something which looks like modded version of it.

[InitialDave]

Why are people talking about IFS? They have already said it's live axle, and you can see the offset diff cover underneath in the first image.

Someone's buggered up the render in later images is all.

[B10]

Interesting how it has got UK and German flags on the wings.
I assume that this reflects that the assembly is in the UK, development and engines from Germany and additional development latterly from Austria. It should also have Portuguese (body pressings and Austrian (Magna Styr) flags. a true European project by a Monaco living Brexiteer. I hope he gets the irony.
Surly it should have the Council of Europe flag on the wings instead!!

[Drekly]

Good point above, given this is essentially a one model brand they won't be able to offset average emissions with smaller electric cars further down the range, so by the time production starts they'd have to be producing a lot of EV versions. Seems to be a faff to invest in using conventional BMW engines with such a short lifespan.

[bqf]

What Ineos need to do is launch a commercial version, strip it down to absolute basics (the ONLY concession to comfort being AirCon) - I'm talking manual windows, mirrors, seats, no stupid bluetooth or pointless nav, and sell it for £28K + VAT.

Completely take the new Defender legs away. I'd totally buy one.

[camel_landy]

InitialDave said:

Why are people talking about IFS? They have already said it's live axle, and you can see the offset diff cover underneath in the first image.

Someone's buggered up the render in later images is all.

Thanks... I didn't notice it in the first image and you're correct about the subsequent renderings.

M

[SuperPav]

Drekly said:

Good point above, given this is essentially a one model brand they won't be able to offset average emissions with smaller electric cars further down the range, so by the time production starts they'd have to be producing a lot of EV versions. Seems to be a faff to invest in using conventional BMW engines with such a short lifespan.

Pooling is still allowed... see Tesla & FCA.

They'll just pay Tesla (or other willing manufacturer) for some credits.

Still would need to recover that in their margin somehow. Although if they're not planning an electric one very soon, they're being very shortsighted regardless of fleet CO2 fines.

[loveice]

55palfers said:

The Chinese always take a great deal of notice when it come to IP rights.....

https://driving.ca/lexus/auto-news/entertainment/t...

Check out some of the Japanese cars from the 50s and 60s, some even up to the 90s... And check out some of the recent Chinese automotive designs (2015 onwards). Things move on very quickly. And some companies on that list are out of business now as the Chinese market itself simply didn't agree with those designs at the first place, and the local legal system had been very strict on those activities in the past 10 years or so. The fines they could receive would simply put them out of business with the negative media coverage on top.

That's why automotive design in China moved on at a much quicker pace than the Japanese automotive design back in the 50s, 60s, 70s... If you really care about the development of automotive design industry in China or any market, do travel there and take tours in some of their OEM design studios or local independent automotive design companies. They are quite welcoming if you ask them politely. However, those outdated headline grabbing internet articles aren't really the way to get knowing an industry or a market.

[darnold1979]

Happy to buy one immediately - replacement for my 2011 g350
C’mon guys - roll it out so I can avoid disaster with the london ulez

[C Lee Farquar]

sgtBerbatov said:

Instead of taking legal action, JLR should've bought the design. This is much, much better than the new Defender design.

Made me chuckle. I'll consider getting one having bought new Defenders in the past.

I'm not considering the LR Defender, or anything else in their range.

[growlerowl]

B10 said:

Interesting how it has got UK and German flags on the wings.
I assume that this reflects that the assembly is in the UK, development and engines from Germany and additional development latterly from Austria. It should also have Portuguese (body pressings and Austrian (Magna Styr) flags. a true European project by a Monaco living Brexiteer. I hope he gets the irony.
Surly it should have the Council of Europe flag on the wings instead!!

It's only ironic if you swallow the line that Brexit equals economic cold war, whereas I'd say it's a perfect demonstration of the Brexit philosophy actually - regaining and retaining sovereignty does not mean we cannot also be close friends and trading partners.

[300bhp/ton]

Well I'm really liking the look of this. If I'm in a financial position to buy one, I think I probably will. Obviously would like to test drive one first.

[GT03ROB]

Truckosaurus said:

This was my thinking too, if he can underwrite the project by getting his other company to buy a job lot (and getting the cycling team to use them for some publicity) that should be enough to kickstart things.

I'm not an expert in that market, but could you sell vehicles to large oil/gas/mining/NGO fleets and the lack of a dealer network won't be an issue as they'd do all maintenance in-house/on-site?

As others have said, they seem to be missing a trick by not having a stupidly expensive top of the range version, it must be better business to sell 1 vehicle for £100k than 3 for £30k,

oil/gas/mining fleets don't look much further than Hiluxes/Prados. They are bullet proof, reliable, capable & cheap. Does Grenadier win on any of those scores?

[Hitch]

sisu said:

Good luck pitching them on a BMW X3 based 4x4 dressed in cargo pants and a leatherman pouch.

You've not really looked into this have you?

[silentbrown]

I like that, but think it's going to be a difficult sell to UK farmers who in the past would have been typical Defender customers.

That market has been split/eaten up by quad bikes and UTVs at one end, double-cab pickups like the Isuzu in the middle, and premium RR's/Discoverys at the top.

[mooseracer]

wisbech said:

I think it will be the GT86. The car every one says they want, but they will still buy a FWD hot hatch/ soft SUV.

This.

[RacerMike]

silentbrown said:

I like that, but think it's going to be a difficult sell to UK farmers who in the past would have been typical Defender customers.

That market has been split/eaten up by quad bikes and UTVs at one end, double-cab pickups like the Isuzu in the middle, and premium RR's/Discoverys at the top.

And L200s which are £21k inc VAT. The rumour is this is £40k plus VAT!