RE: INEOS Grenadier officially unveiled
Discussion
Just out of interest, who actually hoses out the interior of their vehicle??
I’m a rural dweller and wouldn’t dream of it. Just wait till it dries then brush or hoover it out.
Still plenty of electronic and foam items that won’t take kindly to a dousing in most 4x4s and that includes Hiluxs and defenders from the last 35 years.
Greenlaners maybe but they aren’t going to buy anything new.
I’m a rural dweller and wouldn’t dream of it. Just wait till it dries then brush or hoover it out.
Still plenty of electronic and foam items that won’t take kindly to a dousing in most 4x4s and that includes Hiluxs and defenders from the last 35 years.
Greenlaners maybe but they aren’t going to buy anything new.
Fleet CO2 for EU is a massive problem!
From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing, it's going to have huge CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( and this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine. So add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit.
Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a nice round number that's a fine per car of 19,475 euro and for those 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 million Euro to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing, it's going to have huge CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( and this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine. So add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit.
Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a nice round number that's a fine per car of 19,475 euro and for those 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 million Euro to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 1st July 10:42
InitialDave said:
Why are people talking about IFS? They have already said it's live axle, and you can see the offset diff cover underneath in the first image.
Someone's buggered up the render in later images is all.
I only brought it up because it amused me. Someone's buggered up the render in later images is all.
I hope the rest of the project has better attention to detail though.
If this was a supercar that Sniff Petrol article would have been posted 4 times by now.
I have been following the Ineos Grenadier story since it broke. Visiting their website and reading / watching Mark Evans' articles. Hey, I even suggested some names for the vehicle when they ran the "suggest a name" thing on their website. I made suggestions like: "Grenadier" (yup, it was me, but probably not just me), "Radancer" ("Ratcliffe's answer" with a bit of Toyoda-like poetic licence), "Landie Mc Landface" (can't think why they didn't pick that one?).
I am surprised that so many serious comments on this thread display a lack of knowledge that could easily be corrected by visiting the Ineos Grenadier website. It may look very similar to a Defender, but on their website you can read about the engineering decisions that have been made and why. This is especially so around the chassis, suspension, transmission and engines.
And to the poster who implied that the pictures were just renderings and the whole thing was still pie-in-the-sky. Nope! An hour's research at lunch time will put you right.
I have no connection with Ineos. I've never owned a 4x4 and don't have a lifestyle / workstyle that requires this type of utility vehicle. But this has been a very interesting story to follow, and I wish it well. It is much more down-to-earth and realistic than the latest hyper-thing that can reach X in Y. (Koenigsegg and Lamborghini excepted, of course )
I am surprised that so many serious comments on this thread display a lack of knowledge that could easily be corrected by visiting the Ineos Grenadier website. It may look very similar to a Defender, but on their website you can read about the engineering decisions that have been made and why. This is especially so around the chassis, suspension, transmission and engines.
And to the poster who implied that the pictures were just renderings and the whole thing was still pie-in-the-sky. Nope! An hour's research at lunch time will put you right.
I have no connection with Ineos. I've never owned a 4x4 and don't have a lifestyle / workstyle that requires this type of utility vehicle. But this has been a very interesting story to follow, and I wish it well. It is much more down-to-earth and realistic than the latest hyper-thing that can reach X in Y. (Koenigsegg and Lamborghini excepted, of course
)Max_Torque said:
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
If that is correct, then the whole venture seems unfeasible. Maybe their Brexity boss is not going to allow them to be sold in the EU?
AngryPartsBloke said:
Can we drop this Idea of a start-up? Jim Ratcliffe is worth over $15B and the Ineos PETchem group has revenue of $80B+
It's the exact definition of a startup. The worth of the founder has nothing to do with. I think the whole point of this is that it's not a man in a shed in the midlands with a few million quid in deposits and lots of initial goodwillPerhaps that's where we've been going wrong with all this 'boutique supercars' and such projects in the UK, time to get behind something that actually has a chance of succeeding.
Edited by ukaskew on Wednesday 1st July 10:44
I could never get my head around how this project was ever going to be commercially viable, the bill to design and produce a new car is huge, massive, 9 digits big... when you only taking of 25k units a year, that takes a hell of a long time to pay back. Especially when give Defender and G class sales are way below that and a lot of their sales will come from the brand, which this doesn’t have.
However, now we have seen the finished article, it becomes clear. The engineering bill was probably about £3.50 and a couple of jazz mags... it’s just a defender with some new lights!
I can now see how the numbers stack up a bit better, but I think his sales figures are way off.
Then we need to see how is his going address Max’s point above
However, now we have seen the finished article, it becomes clear. The engineering bill was probably about £3.50 and a couple of jazz mags... it’s just a defender with some new lights!
I can now see how the numbers stack up a bit better, but I think his sales figures are way off.
Then we need to see how is his going address Max’s point above
Max_Torque said:
Fleet CO2 for EU is a massive problem!
From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing,it's going to have CATASTROPHICLY HUGE CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( although this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points etc) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine, add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
very true. but I wouldn't be surprised to see this one sell in maybe USA and less regulated markets with only a handful in the EU.From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing,it's going to have CATASTROPHICLY HUGE CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( although this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points etc) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine, add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
The reason they are using the BWW drive train is because they are signed up to use the new BWM Hydrogen fuel cell. As soon as that comes on stream next year (in low volume X5), then in 2025 in high volume INEOS will probably drop the petrol/diesel entirely in the EU. Why is INEOS so interested in hydrogen you may ask? just google what business INEOS is in. If memory serves, hydrogen is a waste product from their chemicals operation.... Just need a few hydrogen filling stations now.
Edited by ducnick on Wednesday 1st July 10:50
MC Bodge said:
Max_Torque said:
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
If that is correct, then the whole venture seems unfeasible. Maybe their Brexity boss is not going to allow them to be sold in the EU?
I've no idea if Ineos have found, bought, or begged for some sort of exception, but this is a serious problem (and exactly why all the big OE's have been spending the last 3 years crashing the development of at least one EV in their range to bring their fleet average down....)
MC Bodge said:
Max_Torque said:
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
If that is correct, then the whole venture seems unfeasible. Maybe their Brexity boss is not going to allow them to be sold in the EU?
ducnick said:
Max_Torque said:
Fleet CO2 for EU is a massive problem!
From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing,it's going to have CATASTROPHICLY HUGE CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( although this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points etc) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine, add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
very true. but I wouldn't be surprised to see this one sell in maybe USA and less regulated markets with only a handful in the EU.From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing,it's going to have CATASTROPHICLY HUGE CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( although this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points etc) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine, add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
The reason they are using the BWW drive train is because they are signed up to use the new BWM Hydrogen fuel cell. As soon as that comes on stream next year (in low volume X5), then in 2025 in high volume INEOS will probably drop the petrol/diesel entirely in the EU. Why is INEOS so interested in hydrogen you may ask? just google what business INEOS is in.... Just need a few hydrogen filling stations now.
Be better just to sell them with a large fold out solar array so you can sit for a couple of days drinking your gin whilst your car recharges itself........
And 2025 is 4 years of sales after 2021, so in those interviening years, the price of the car will have to support the fine per car, making this a £65,000 vehicle in the EU... dream on.
Max_Torque said:
Fleet CO2 for EU is a massive problem!
From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing, it's going to have huge CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( and this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine. So add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
Aren't the EU's CO2 tests done in a static testing environment though? That's how VAG's diesels were able to detect that they were being tested. Drag would have no impact on the test result.From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing, it's going to have huge CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( and this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine. So add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
Megaflow said:
MC Bodge said:
Max_Torque said:
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
If that is correct, then the whole venture seems unfeasible. Maybe their Brexity boss is not going to allow them to be sold in the EU?
I was sceptical about this with no design released for ages, but yeah I like that a lot.
I owned a Defender 90 300tdi for a few years as a daily and unfortunately it went due my daily now requiring ISOFIX and ultimately it being too tall for my garage as a weekend car.
No question this design works for commercial use, I think it will succeed at social/domestic use if some pretty standard comforts like ISOFIX and a decent heating system are in place, also it not leaking like sieve! The double rear door is a great idea (taken direct from a Nissan Patrol / Toyota Troopy), more so if it can be locked open, I attached my 90 rear door with a bungee cord to the mud flap if I wanted to leave it open! Be great if they galvanise the chassis from factory.
I’d be happy to buy one if they have addressed the above and it is cheaper than the new Defender, I think the new Defender is great, to but it’s expensive now.
I owned a Defender 90 300tdi for a few years as a daily and unfortunately it went due my daily now requiring ISOFIX and ultimately it being too tall for my garage as a weekend car.
No question this design works for commercial use, I think it will succeed at social/domestic use if some pretty standard comforts like ISOFIX and a decent heating system are in place, also it not leaking like sieve! The double rear door is a great idea (taken direct from a Nissan Patrol / Toyota Troopy), more so if it can be locked open, I attached my 90 rear door with a bungee cord to the mud flap if I wanted to leave it open! Be great if they galvanise the chassis from factory.
I’d be happy to buy one if they have addressed the above and it is cheaper than the new Defender, I think the new Defender is great, to but it’s expensive now.
Max_Torque said:
Fleet CO2 for EU is a massive problem!
From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing,it's going to have CATASTROPHICLY HUGE CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( although this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points etc) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine, add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
How are existing manufacturers like JLR planning to deal with this? All of the initial new Defender models kick-out more than double that 95 g/km target so surely they're in for a clobbering as well? There's lots of talk about how the industry will be forced into complying with these ever tightening emissions standards but none of the big players are going to be anywhere near that figure by next year. The fines applicable for selling their existing model range at anything like pre-pandemic numbers appear to equate to several times their yearly profits so surely something has to give?From 2021, for every gram you are over 95g/km you pay 95 euro's PER GRAM PER CAR you sell!
Look at this thing,it's going to have CATASTROPHICLY HUGE CO2. The old 110 Defender, which is significantly narrower, but similarly draggy ( although this has all sorts of drag increasing design points like the door trims, the roof tie down points etc) managed 291 g/km with a 4cyl engine, add in more drag (bigger car, fussier design) and the additional frictional/parastic losses of a 6 cyl engine (110 had the 2.4 4 cyl transit engine) and this thing is going to be in the 300's!!
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
And don't think they can just "buy credits for other manufacturers" Already CO2 credits have become worth, ohh, about 95 euro each. WIth all OEM's struggling to get the fleet average down, nobody is going to be giving away tax credits, especially not your direct competitors.. Companies like Tesla, with a fleet average well below the threshold (because they only make 'lecy cars) is already making money selling it's credits, to FCA group, but once everyone wants them, it's a sellers market, and TESLA could make more money out of selling credits than it does cars......
One of the issues for the industry seems to be that consumers just don't want most of the sub-95 g/km models on sale; there's certainly nothing in that range that I'd consider buying because the developments that allow that figure to be met are nearly all the very things I can't stand about modern cars. As I've mentioned before on PH, my wife's 2018 320d already frustrates me because the concessions made in the name of efficiency have made it worse to drive than our old E46. She's currently working from home and I hope that continues, not least so that we can swap the BMW for something less compromised.
mooseracer said:
wisbech said:
I think it will be the GT86. The car every one says they want, but they will still buy a FWD hot hatch/ soft SUV.
This. MC Bodge said:
Megaflow said:
MC Bodge said:
Max_Torque said:
So, 300g/km minus 95g/km is 205g/km over the limit, Lets say they sell 10,000 a year within the EU, that's a cool round that's a fine PER CAR of 19,475 euro !!! If they sold 10,000 in the EU in 2021, they'd be paying out 194 MILLION EURO to do so!!
If that is correct, then the whole venture seems unfeasible. Maybe their Brexity boss is not going to allow them to be sold in the EU?
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