RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
ChocolateFrog said:
oilit said:
Why so many switches (and that does not mean i want a f****** screen) but it has more switches than the space shuttle doesn't it?
Appealing to the target demographic maybe?One whole panel is pre-wired for aftermarket accessories. The rest is probably a result of not having all the functions of a modern car run through a touchscreen.
Or you remove most of the features, put what’s left on hard switches, and people complain the car lacks features expected of a new car
Edited by F20CN16 on Wednesday 23 February 19:48
Andeh1 said:
Tell me, who is their target customer? Every other vehicle on the road has a pretty easy 'demographic' which it targets, this car's 'demographic' simply doesn't exist....the closest ones are Land Rover customers...but they'll buy a land rover because when they spend £50k on a vehicle they don't want to feel like they are sitting in a 5 years old Dacia Duster. They're also not total idiots (because they have £50k to spend on a posh vehicle...) and will take one look at this mess & remember those little things like comfort, fuel economy, reliability, service/support network, brand awareness, crash safety, driver aids, drivability, NVH, warranty, parts support etc etc etc etc what they WONT think is ''oh but it can do full axle articulation & is rufty tufty at rock crawling'
I’m certainly not. New Defender 110 on order as I value my money and believe it is superior in every way to the Grenadier. I also own and love my 1yr old Dacia Duster which will share a drive with my Slovakian New Defender.
Will the Grenadier not ground out in deep ruts without the ability to raise its ride height?
Tell me, who is their target customer? Every other vehicle on the road has a pretty easy 'demographic' which it targets, this car's 'demographic' simply doesn't exist....the closest ones are Land Rover customers...but they'll buy a land rover because when they spend £50k on a vehicle they don't want to feel like they are sitting in a 5 years old Dacia Duster. They're also not total idiots (because they have £50k to spend on a posh vehicle...) and will take one look at this mess & remember those little things like comfort, fuel economy, reliability, service/support network, brand awareness, crash safety, driver aids, drivability, NVH, warranty, parts support etc etc etc etc what they WONT think is ''oh but it can do full axle articulation & is rufty tufty at rock crawling'
I’m certainly not. New Defender 110 on order as I value my money and believe it is superior in every way to the Grenadier. I also own and love my 1yr old Dacia Duster which will share a drive with my Slovakian New Defender.
Will the Grenadier not ground out in deep ruts without the ability to raise its ride height?
Always seemed a bit odd that the engineers (ex Mercedes) chose a BMW engine/gearbox - might have had more credibility if they had gone Sisu/Caterpillar(Perkins)/Cummins for the diesel. Looking at the prototype chassis/drive train it looks hellish complicated around the engine. However, apart from the styling it really owes little to the Defender. As for the factory - if we didn't have a PM quoted as saying "F*ck business" we could have had a government who actively supported the re-use of the Honda Swindon factory/skilled quality workforce. There's still a market for the tough basic 4x4's built in India (eg Force) and China (eg BAIC) that we don't see in Europe, possibly due to emissions and NCAP.
Chris C2 said:
Always seemed a bit odd that the engineers (ex Mercedes) chose a BMW engine/gearbox - might have had more credibility if they had gone Sisu/Caterpillar(Perkins)/Cummins for the diesel. Looking at the prototype chassis/drive train it looks hellish complicated around the engine. However, apart from the styling it really owes little to the Defender. As for the factory - if we didn't have a PM quoted as saying "F*ck business" we could have had a government who actively supported the re-use of the Honda Swindon factory/skilled quality workforce. There's still a market for the tough basic 4x4's built in India (eg Force) and China (eg BAIC) that we don't see in Europe, possibly due to emissions and NCAP.
Once again - how much would you have like the government to spend to gain 500 jobs? They got support for the Welsh factory, but not at the tens of millions level they saved by taking on SMART. Every £10M is £20k per job gained...
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
But this is the thing, what makes you think it will be more robust? Just because it's got a 1980s design principle, mechanically, DOES NOT remove the fact it still has an electrical CANBUS backbone like 99% of new vehicles on same. It breaks down, you'll need the same computer based toolkit to interrogate... Like every other vehicle on the market. This ain't no spanner job.
The notion this will be a proper overlander with mechanical resolutions to all common faults will get you as far as the ad-blu sensor allows you...
Isn’t it almost impossible to sack people in France?
I think Mercedes have pulled a fast one on Radcliff by potentially saddling him with the costs of shutting down the French factory if this bombs rather than them having to do it.
I used to think this vehicle was a good idea but I’ve read enough on PH to have my mind changed. Still wish the guy well though.
I think Mercedes have pulled a fast one on Radcliff by potentially saddling him with the costs of shutting down the French factory if this bombs rather than them having to do it.
I used to think this vehicle was a good idea but I’ve read enough on PH to have my mind changed. Still wish the guy well though.
corcoran said:
popped into this thread to post a more nuanced version of this but this'll do it!
Domiciled in Monaco, Brexiteer promising to build this in Wales, realises it can be done more efficiently in France, moves his Terribly British car there. Get ta fck.
You forgot, uses german engine, haha. Otherwise, I agree with both of you. Domiciled in Monaco, Brexiteer promising to build this in Wales, realises it can be done more efficiently in France, moves his Terribly British car there. Get ta fck.
Edited by corcoran on Wednesday 23 February 09:07
I quite like it, however I can't see it getting a foothold in the rest of the world where they have the newer Nissan Patrol and the new 300 Series Landcruiser, with the new Prado coming next year and of course the new Defender being a great success story too.
Good idea, up against some very tough, very established competition.
Good idea, up against some very tough, very established competition.
For those from outide the UK, or those ignoring the political angle, or saying its just about one vote - Jim Ratcliffe has a long history of tax avoidance (its conservatively in the billions), environmental violations and a hard nosed attitude to unions and striking workers* (forck you, I'll close the plant).
He campagined for Brexit because he wanted to tear up environmental and employee protecting legislation and all the rest of us have to deal with worsening conditions trading with europe whilst he's just shuffled more of his money into Monaco.
Moving prodction of the Grenadier into the EU was just another in a long line of fork yous.
He's a horrible person and I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.
All of which makes meseverly disinclined to buy a Grenadier.
However my nose is still attached and my face has yet to be spited so let's look at the thing.
The bare bones nature and beam axles with pasive suspesnion would lead me to believe anyone who does more than a handful of road miles is likely to go for something esle.
The double cab pickups are cheaper and whilst they MAY be less accomplished at the extreme end of things in the dirt, most people working the land don't really require ultimate off road ability. That may seem odd but the more time you spend driving the Rubicon to get across your property the less time you have to tend to sheep, cattle, pheasants or fight cabbage stem flea beetle. Sooner or later it becomes an easy choice to put a blade on the tractor and grade that track.
Moving further afield finds some competitors, the Toyota 70 series (not sold in Europe) and the Mercedes G Professional. Both are expensive, both have a long earned reputation for durability but both sell in tiny numbers. When Toyota widened the front axle (to accomodate a new engine) they couldn't justify widening the rear (think about sandy ruts..) owing to the low number sold.
Do I think that Aussie bush types and NGOs operating in Africa, Central America etc will ditch their Gs and TLC in favour of brand new vehicle from a brand new manufacturer. No, I don't.
Do I think enthusiast off-roader types will buy them?
No.
Enthusiasts don't tend to buy stripped out driving machines in large numbers (think Alpine/Lotus/Caterham sales versus M/AMG/RS sales) and people that want something that drives like a Land Rover from the 80s can buy a gen 1 Discovery (and a mig welder) for less than £2k.
I doubt the Americans will want to move away from their homegrown, known vehicles with good spares back up and I don't think the single body style makes it adaptable enough for military use.
I don't think it will sell in big enough numbers to be profitable.
But perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't work in the motor industry and I haven't seen the books.
I've only owned a few 4x4s over the years and watched every car get flashier and better equipped (think of those people who bought the Fiesta Popular Plus back in the day, they're leasing Minis, A1s and Jukes today).
He campagined for Brexit because he wanted to tear up environmental and employee protecting legislation and all the rest of us have to deal with worsening conditions trading with europe whilst he's just shuffled more of his money into Monaco.
Moving prodction of the Grenadier into the EU was just another in a long line of fork yous.
He's a horrible person and I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.
All of which makes meseverly disinclined to buy a Grenadier.
However my nose is still attached and my face has yet to be spited so let's look at the thing.
The bare bones nature and beam axles with pasive suspesnion would lead me to believe anyone who does more than a handful of road miles is likely to go for something esle.
The double cab pickups are cheaper and whilst they MAY be less accomplished at the extreme end of things in the dirt, most people working the land don't really require ultimate off road ability. That may seem odd but the more time you spend driving the Rubicon to get across your property the less time you have to tend to sheep, cattle, pheasants or fight cabbage stem flea beetle. Sooner or later it becomes an easy choice to put a blade on the tractor and grade that track.
Moving further afield finds some competitors, the Toyota 70 series (not sold in Europe) and the Mercedes G Professional. Both are expensive, both have a long earned reputation for durability but both sell in tiny numbers. When Toyota widened the front axle (to accomodate a new engine) they couldn't justify widening the rear (think about sandy ruts..) owing to the low number sold.
Do I think that Aussie bush types and NGOs operating in Africa, Central America etc will ditch their Gs and TLC in favour of brand new vehicle from a brand new manufacturer. No, I don't.
Do I think enthusiast off-roader types will buy them?
No.
Enthusiasts don't tend to buy stripped out driving machines in large numbers (think Alpine/Lotus/Caterham sales versus M/AMG/RS sales) and people that want something that drives like a Land Rover from the 80s can buy a gen 1 Discovery (and a mig welder) for less than £2k.
I doubt the Americans will want to move away from their homegrown, known vehicles with good spares back up and I don't think the single body style makes it adaptable enough for military use.
I don't think it will sell in big enough numbers to be profitable.
But perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't work in the motor industry and I haven't seen the books.
I've only owned a few 4x4s over the years and watched every car get flashier and better equipped (think of those people who bought the Fiesta Popular Plus back in the day, they're leasing Minis, A1s and Jukes today).
- Does anyone remember the petrol shortages owing to industrial action back in 2008? That was caused by Jim taking pensions from his employees.
Very intriguing and I hope it does well. Seems a pretty desirable product and could become a common sight in rural areas. The article doesn't touch on the servicing aspect but I gather they're setting up a global network via Bosch and if it has cheaper and less frequent servicing than many modern delicate cars then that will be another string to its bow.
On the political aspect - for me it is proof that ideology is no match for common sense and good business.
On the political aspect - for me it is proof that ideology is no match for common sense and good business.
NGK210 said:
A Land Cruiser or a Rivian R1S, please..
These are going to demolish the SUV market as have the Teslas when everyone was walking away from 5 door fastbacks.
The Grenadier is so out of step you wonder if they are going to put a Walnut veneer dash, Smiths guages and a Pioneer stereo as an option.
It is the 4x4 version of a Bristol.
I have faith in the concept and paid my deposit.
After seeing how JLR had missed the requirement for a genuine off roader, there is little choice if you want to use it off road seriously.
I live in north of Scotland where all current JLR products fail, gearboxes, electrics, engines, you name it, it breaks up here!
The concept is sound, the engineering impressive but best of all is the access to full workshop manuals so no expensive dealer ripoffs
After seeing how JLR had missed the requirement for a genuine off roader, there is little choice if you want to use it off road seriously.
I live in north of Scotland where all current JLR products fail, gearboxes, electrics, engines, you name it, it breaks up here!
The concept is sound, the engineering impressive but best of all is the access to full workshop manuals so no expensive dealer ripoffs
soxboy said:
Listening to a podcast the other day, the diesel engine issues seem to be oil circulation/ starvation due to the way the police use them, i.e. idle for long periods then caned. I can’t see this happening on a Grenadier.
Which podcast is this please? Always looking out for new listening options.Gassing Station | INEOS | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff