Ineos Grenadier customer cars arrive at dealers
Discussion
Just watched Harry’s video. I know it’s sometimes about the sound recording but it’s a gruff old bugger. It’s commendable that he got this made. It seems to need some finessing. I have seen lots of now very old utility company Defenders still in use lately. If they factor in a 10 yr lifecycle then the numbers might add up for them but the starting weight won’t help.
Mikebentley said:
Just watched Harry’s video. I know it’s sometimes about the sound recording but it’s a gruff old bugger. It’s commendable that he got this made. It seems to need some finessing. I have seen lots of now very old utility company Defenders still in use lately. If they factor in a 10 yr lifecycle then the numbers might add up for them but the starting weight won’t help.
A lot of the time those Defenders are kept going, despite the elevated health and safety risk to the workers because of the specialist equipment attached to them. So long as that machinery can be easily swapped across then that would create the opportunity. Again, I had assumed that this was an area where Ineos had been speaking to the users for years already?
But the luxury Ineos has is that they can probably take their time to build volume and reputation and hone the product?
I have considered buying one but Harry has convinced me it is not for me.
I really adore the look of the old Defender but hate how they drive on road. I would use the off road capability about 10 days a year - but I need to drive c200 miles to get there. So, if there was something that had the looks and the off-road capabilities of the original Defender, with decent on-road manners and acceptable levels of NVH suppression, then it could have been a contender.
Sadly, the Grenadier has none of those attributes. The shape is a bit 'uncanny valley': slightly 'off' in odd ways that make it unappealing (to me): e.g. the bulbous nose. The accessory attachment points are ugly (and superfluous for me). The weight, manual diff locks, lack of traction control, etc. leave it firmly in new Defender's wake (as Harry pointed out) for off roading. Harry has now confirmed that the on-road experience is as woeful as old Defender.
Therefore, it is firmly off the list. Sad, as I think Ineos might have had something, had they approached it a little differently. Hopefully they can survive and build a better v2.0.
To be clear, this is for my personal use case and tastes. YMMV
I really adore the look of the old Defender but hate how they drive on road. I would use the off road capability about 10 days a year - but I need to drive c200 miles to get there. So, if there was something that had the looks and the off-road capabilities of the original Defender, with decent on-road manners and acceptable levels of NVH suppression, then it could have been a contender.
Sadly, the Grenadier has none of those attributes. The shape is a bit 'uncanny valley': slightly 'off' in odd ways that make it unappealing (to me): e.g. the bulbous nose. The accessory attachment points are ugly (and superfluous for me). The weight, manual diff locks, lack of traction control, etc. leave it firmly in new Defender's wake (as Harry pointed out) for off roading. Harry has now confirmed that the on-road experience is as woeful as old Defender.
Therefore, it is firmly off the list. Sad, as I think Ineos might have had something, had they approached it a little differently. Hopefully they can survive and build a better v2.0.
To be clear, this is for my personal use case and tastes. YMMV
AstonZagato said:
I have considered buying one but Harry has convinced me it is not for me.
I really adore the look of the old Defender but hate how they drive on road. I would use the off road capability about 10 days a year - but I need to drive c200 miles to get there. So, if there was something that had the looks and the off-road capabilities of the original Defender, with decent on-road manners and acceptable levels of NVH suppression, then it could have been a contender.
Sadly, the Grenadier has none of those attributes. The shape is a bit 'uncanny valley': slightly 'off' in odd ways that make it unappealing (to me): e.g. the bulbous nose. The accessory attachment points are ugly (and superfluous for me). The weight, manual diff locks, lack of traction control, etc. leave it firmly in new Defender's wake (as Harry pointed out) for off roading. Harry has now confirmed that the on-road experience is as woeful as old Defender.
Therefore, it is firmly off the list. Sad, as I think Ineos might have had something, had they approached it a little differently. Hopefully they can survive and build a better v2.0.
To be clear, this is for my personal use case and tastes. YMMV
The reality is that the Western world is covered in tarmac so any 4x4 for normal use needs to be as good as a basic road car as that's where it'll spend most of its time. The car Harry tested is the one that's supposed to live mostly offroad so maybe other versions do that job better?I really adore the look of the old Defender but hate how they drive on road. I would use the off road capability about 10 days a year - but I need to drive c200 miles to get there. So, if there was something that had the looks and the off-road capabilities of the original Defender, with decent on-road manners and acceptable levels of NVH suppression, then it could have been a contender.
Sadly, the Grenadier has none of those attributes. The shape is a bit 'uncanny valley': slightly 'off' in odd ways that make it unappealing (to me): e.g. the bulbous nose. The accessory attachment points are ugly (and superfluous for me). The weight, manual diff locks, lack of traction control, etc. leave it firmly in new Defender's wake (as Harry pointed out) for off roading. Harry has now confirmed that the on-road experience is as woeful as old Defender.
Therefore, it is firmly off the list. Sad, as I think Ineos might have had something, had they approached it a little differently. Hopefully they can survive and build a better v2.0.
To be clear, this is for my personal use case and tastes. YMMV
The issue for me is the interior. It's just too cheap and has ergonomic compromises that really just aren't acceptable in the 21st century. For £70k it just doesn't cut it. A modern Defender just makes more sense. It looks nice enough, will easily do any of the off-roading you need but has a very nice cabin, very few interior compromises and drives brilliantly. The trade off being the usual risk of LR issues that is a bit of a lottery but generally negated by letting someone else find the bad ones and waiting for a three year old one that has proven not to be one cobbled together on piss-up Friday.
Bill said:
DonkeyApple said:
D2 definitely, D3 was still a ladder but had it moved away from live axles?
Yep, hence my query. I'm not sure it's possible for a car on live axles to compete with independent suspension on road. DonkeyApple said:
Bill said:
DonkeyApple said:
D2 definitely, D3 was still a ladder but had it moved away from live axles?
Yep, hence my query. I'm not sure it's possible for a car on live axles to compete with independent suspension on road. AstonZagato said:
P38 was poor compared to L322 though (I had both in period) and each successive RR generation has shown an improvement in on-road manners without sacrificing off road capability. The on-road experience has moved on.
Yup. That's the point. The L322 wasn't a ladder chassis with solid axles. It was a modern car. I think the p38 was the last LR that was so it should be a benchmark as to how road friendly the old and cheap set up can be while actually being better offroad in most scenarios than an old Defender. One would expect a car in 2023 to be no worse than a 25 year old ladder and live axle design.
DonkeyApple said:
AstonZagato said:
P38 was poor compared to L322 though (I had both in period) and each successive RR generation has shown an improvement in on-road manners without sacrificing off road capability. The on-road experience has moved on.
Yup. That's the point. The L322 wasn't a ladder chassis with solid axles. It was a modern car. I think the p38 was the last LR that was so it should be a benchmark as to how road friendly the old and cheap set up can be while actually being better offroad in most scenarios than an old Defender. One would expect a car in 2023 to be no worse than a 25 year old ladder and live axle design.
Yup. It's a benchmark for cheap and tough. JLR have shown that a car can do off-roading better than an old ladder and live axle set-up, so it's only advantage now lies with trading being able to do a chilled 100+ on the M40 for saving tens of thousands of pounds. Ie JLR v Jeep etc.
The Grenadier with its JLRalike pricing doesn't appear to offer anything unless you're doing quite extreme off-roading quite a lot of the time and then people may well favour Toyota for the ease of fixing and patching when 350 miles out from Timbuktu.
The other winter we ended up on a hillside akin to Harry's down the road from him and we had an old Series ii, an old Defender, a Classic, a P38 and an L405. In terms of how far each one got up the slope they ended up ranked by age, bar the 72 Classic which got further than a 2000 Defender but the former had 2002 Disco running gear. That fact is that the car design of the L405 was not only an impediment but resulted in being the most capable while being the most comfortable, the safest and the best in road.
There is an argument that the oldest cars would be best for getting through the Darien Gap but that's only because the squaddies had to carry them most of the way and the British Army doesn't have enough soldiers to carry an L405, or just half a Grenadier.
The basic point being made though was ladder and line axles doesn't mean something has to be crap on road. It'll never be as good but the P38 showed 25 years ago it can be good enough. And Harry's recent videos gave me the impression that driving 500 miles to the Highlands, wandering around all day shooting things, then driving 500 miles back with a hangover would be better done with a 25 year old P38 than a Grenadier if one had to use something with a ladder chassis and live axles.
In fairness to Ineos I'm assuming the Belstaff versions are much more road focussed than the Trailmaster and have much more pleasant interiors?
The Grenadier with its JLRalike pricing doesn't appear to offer anything unless you're doing quite extreme off-roading quite a lot of the time and then people may well favour Toyota for the ease of fixing and patching when 350 miles out from Timbuktu.
The other winter we ended up on a hillside akin to Harry's down the road from him and we had an old Series ii, an old Defender, a Classic, a P38 and an L405. In terms of how far each one got up the slope they ended up ranked by age, bar the 72 Classic which got further than a 2000 Defender but the former had 2002 Disco running gear. That fact is that the car design of the L405 was not only an impediment but resulted in being the most capable while being the most comfortable, the safest and the best in road.
There is an argument that the oldest cars would be best for getting through the Darien Gap but that's only because the squaddies had to carry them most of the way and the British Army doesn't have enough soldiers to carry an L405, or just half a Grenadier.
The basic point being made though was ladder and line axles doesn't mean something has to be crap on road. It'll never be as good but the P38 showed 25 years ago it can be good enough. And Harry's recent videos gave me the impression that driving 500 miles to the Highlands, wandering around all day shooting things, then driving 500 miles back with a hangover would be better done with a 25 year old P38 than a Grenadier if one had to use something with a ladder chassis and live axles.
In fairness to Ineos I'm assuming the Belstaff versions are much more road focussed than the Trailmaster and have much more pleasant interiors?
NomduJour said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm assuming the Belstaff versions are much more road focussed than the Trailmaster and have much more pleasant interiors?
Outside looked ok though. I reckon with a few simple mods - smaller front bumper and change the godawful rear lights it would look much better though. I saw Urban are looking at modding these, so I would be interested to see what they can make of it. NomduJour said:
Not sure if some diamond quilting and cosmetic carbon is going to help it (saw one yesterday too, outside their Chelsea office).
Seems to work on a G Wagen I'm surprised how many I still see of those. Someone local seems to have recently bought an Urban one and there are a couple of AMG ones I regularly see.Red9zero said:
I saw one yesterday (parked round the corner from a Belstaff store coincidentally) but it had heavily tinted windows, so I couldn't see inside properly. I looked like I was casing the car as it was Outside looked ok though. I reckon with a few simple mods - smaller front bumper and change the godawful rear lights it would look much better though. I saw Urban are looking at modding these, so I would be interested to see what they can make of it.
Bumper with a chin spoiler and loads of LEDs. Sports suspension, massive arbs, ultra low profile track tyres, side skirts for ground effect, put the turbos back on the engine, scaffold exhausts with dustbin ends. Diamond stick the entire interior, quilt the roof lining, trim the dash up, add more switches and dials. Think a cool, aggressive, manly word. Remove all the vowels from it. Tint the glass. Add chrome. Done. Outside looked ok though. I reckon with a few simple mods - smaller front bumper and change the godawful rear lights it would look much better though. I saw Urban are looking at modding these, so I would be interested to see what they can make of it. DonkeyApple said:
Red9zero said:
I saw one yesterday (parked round the corner from a Belstaff store coincidentally) but it had heavily tinted windows, so I couldn't see inside properly. I looked like I was casing the car as it was Outside looked ok though. I reckon with a few simple mods - smaller front bumper and change the godawful rear lights it would look much better though. I saw Urban are looking at modding these, so I would be interested to see what they can make of it.
Bumper with a chin spoiler and loads of LEDs. Sports suspension, massive arbs, ultra low profile track tyres, side skirts for ground effect, put the turbos back on the engine, scaffold exhausts with dustbin ends. Diamond stick the entire interior, quilt the roof lining, trim the dash up, add more switches and dials. Think a cool, aggressive, manly word. Remove all the vowels from it. Tint the glass. Add chrome. Done. Outside looked ok though. I reckon with a few simple mods - smaller front bumper and change the godawful rear lights it would look much better though. I saw Urban are looking at modding these, so I would be interested to see what they can make of it. I'd still be interested to see what the aftermarket can make of it though.Red9zero said:
Maybe Urban was a bad choice I'd still be interested to see what the aftermarket can make of it though.
I think there's huge scope for after market, whether someone wants to gentrify and match with red trousers or go full wife beater spec and match with the bull terrier. I'd still be interested to see what the aftermarket can make of it though.It's just a bit difficult choosing whether to blow £150k on a converted original defender and have to leave your right arm at home or a Grenadier and leave your left leg at home.
DonkeyApple said:
I think there's huge scope for after market, whether someone wants to gentrify and match with red trousers or go full wife beater spec and match with the bull terrier.
It's just a bit difficult choosing whether to blow £150k on a converted original defender and have to leave your right arm at home or a Grenadier and leave your left leg at home.
I have a smaller steering wheel in mine, so I have room for half an arm It's just a bit difficult choosing whether to blow £150k on a converted original defender and have to leave your right arm at home or a Grenadier and leave your left leg at home.
That bump on the Grenadier floor is just odd though. Gassing Station | INEOS | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff