Detling - seasons opener

[Steffan]

DEN TANNER said:

Furyblade_Lee said:

I went to a concert at the O2 in November. The concert tickets were £60 each, just to PARK in that car park was £25...

Yep, and it's about 100 times bigger than all of Detling's halls combined - isn't it?

The next suggestion will no doubt be that the humble kit car industry takes the Excell Centre or the whole of the NEC complex. And to ensure they are full, kit car owners are paid to take their cars there and the public are paid too; on a rent-a-crowd basis. The organisers reward would be a warm glow and bank balance to rival that of Greece.

It's the joy of forums!!!!

I have to say that is clearly one of the problems. I cannot see anyone funding this. In a serious recession I think not. I would like it to be true but I cannot believe it.

[MX7]

DEN TANNER said:

The next suggestion will no doubt be that the humble kit car industry takes the Excell Centre or the whole of the NEC complex.

Ummm, yes, I thought that I was aiming high when I said Palace!

Having said that, I do think that somewhere with the population density that the south east has, there could still be a better venue than Detling.

I had a look at the orginisers site, and they still book out Sandown.... for the National Quilt Championships! (22-24 June if you're interested!)

Edit: Mercedes-Benz World? Chobham? Biggin hill? I don't know....

Edited by MX7 on Saturday 14th April 01:25

[jason61c]

Sam_68 said:

No we don't.

See my post above: I'd rather have quality than quantity.

One big show attended by every major manufacturer and supplier is better than a dozen shows attended by a handful of manufacturers and a few dedicated club anoraks, IMO.

I think the whole scene should go for "Quality rather than quantity", not just shows!

[DEN TANNER]

MX7 said:

DEN TANNER said:

The next suggestion will no doubt be that the humble kit car industry takes the Excell Centre or the whole of the NEC complex.

Ummm, yes, I thought that I was aiming high when I said Palace!

It’s a hard one…. Every venue of prestige is too expensive, whilst those we can afford will always be compromised.

I believe we’re stuck with the County showgrounds for the foreseeable future…. probably forever. And if we, as an industry, can’t make them work then we’ll have nothing at all.

For whatever reason, I wasn’t able to make Stafford work.
Whatever might have been said on this thread, we all know in our heart-of-hearts that Detling didn’t work either (commercially speaking).
And at the very least; I think we can all observe that every other kit car show is doing less well (compared to the year before). And that’s been the case for quite a few years – hasn’t it?

So, the question is………….

[Artstu]

DEN TANNER said:

So, the question is………….

In what year will there be no kit car shows perhaps?

[DEN TANNER]

Artstu said:

DEN TANNER said:

So, the question is………….

In what year will there be no kit car shows perhaps?

I was thinking the opposite...
How can we, as an industry, stop the rot?

[Steffan]

That is a very interesting question Den. With your experience you must be` well placed to offer a few suggestions. Here are a few of mine.

My own contacts with six Kit car makers regularly over time has led me to conclude that there are three elements to this problem.

Firstly, the old kit car makers really did get away with skimping on detail and design and that cars such as the Duttons, which I have owned in profusion and enjoyed immensely, (I still own 2) would not survive modern consumer attitudes.

There has been a quantum leap in Kit Quality and design quality over the last 20 years which has had the effect of inevitably raising prices of kits throughout the industry. We have much better, stronger, safer easily built, kits today. But the are no longer simple and cheap to build. That is a major factor.

Secondly the advent of IVA with all the associated requirements complexity and uncertainty of success has had a major effect upon the enthusiasm and efforts of Kit Car builders. When I first started Kit building in 1963 there was virtually no quality control or registration requirement. Which made building a Kit purely self regulatory and some of the builds that I have seen were unbelievably bad. Downright unsafe.

My original Morgan (yes genuine Morgan) was a classic case in point. Modified by various owners when I got it the main spars had been cut through to allow another engine and gearbox to be fitted. Simply sawn through and left hanging. Utterly unsafe and I put it back to its original powertrain and sorted the gaps. Would that I had it now you could probably buy small house with the proceeds!! Mea Culpa!

Thirdly the economic downturn is having an effect on every form of manufacturing business in the UK and the KC industry is no exception. As i frequently advise manufacturers there simply is not the consumer demand there was two years go and very probably will not be for some time.

That does not mean new Kit Cars will not sell. There are several leading lights in the KC industry doing very well indeed. But I hope that this does set out the context of the current difficulties KC makers face.

I am personally very hopeful of the efforts of Italo and CKC magazine to move things forward. Not everyone shares that view, but to my mind given the straightened prospects of the KC industry any effort to keep up consumer interest has to be good. I await the project being developed with interest.

I must pedal my favourite idea here. Why is no one making a Berkeley style of lightweight, motorcycle engined, svelt. really flowing lines, kit car? IMO the Berkeley layout offers huge potential for a really usable two seater Motorcycle on three wheels. Never bettered as a concept IMO. Yet no one makes one. Why? I guarantee at least one person would buy 2 kits. Me.

That's my suggestions stated.

[DEN TANNER]

Steffan said:

That's my suggestions stated.

And if I may say, I believe it to be one of the most rational, logical and eloquently stated suggestions I've read here in a long time.

That's not to say I agree with every word, but then I don't have to because as you point out "Not everyone shares that [one specific] view" and concerning 3-wheelers in general: they are simply not my cuppa. But the thrust of your suggestion, of gaining customer interest and designing products that people want today, I agree, is of paramount importance.

That said, in respect to shows, in the scenario you've so clearly (and accurately IMO) laid out. How do we, as an industry, move forward?

[Steffan]

DEN TANNER said:

Steffan said:

That's my suggestions stated.

And if I may say, I believe it to be one of the most rational, logical and eloquently stated suggestions I've read here in a long time.

That's not to say I agree with every word, but then I don't have to because as you point out "Not everyone shares that [one specific] view" and concerning 3-wheelers in general: they are simply not my cuppa. But the thrust of your suggestion, of gaining customer interest and designing products that people want today, I agree, is of paramount importance.

That said, in respect to shows, in the scenario you've so clearly (and accurately IMO) laid out. How do we, as an industry, move forward?

No good looking at me for that inspiration, I am an Accountant and as i=one my few remaining clients who will not leave, despite every effort by me, says, upon occasion when vexed.

"Accountants can only give me a reason to not take a risk. I need a reason to take a risk and to make money. I cannot get that from Accountants. All you can do is tell me why I lost money. Or didn't. As the case may be. Accurately and in some detail. Afterwards"

Seems a pretty fair synopsis of Accountants to me. I have heard considerably worse like the comments of Tiny Rowland who stated that

"My Accountants can always tell me how high in the tree the balloon I am flying, has become caught in flight. They cannot tell me where I am, how to get down, or where to get help. Much use to me that is."

I could go on, some of the descriptions, of Accountants are not nice at all. In fact most of them. But after the aside back y=to the subject:

Very few positive reasons to spend money in the UK on business expansion currently. On a serious, not for a moment, any business expansion should be very carefully researched and and if any investment is made it should only be carried out without any borrowed money whatsoever. They days of borrowing to expand manufacturing businesses producing an untried product are long gone in the UK in my opinion. As small businesses everywhere are finding out every day.

Down to someone in the business with spare capacity to take the risk and bring out a new concept. With their own money. I am hopeful that KCK and Italo can do something here. We wait with interest.

Stuart Mills of MEV Kit Cars is now selling an entirely new series of Kit Cars based upon his MEV X5 design. This seems a very well engineered prod=ct to me and has all the advantages of a one donor car and can avoids the need for IVA. In addition there are three completely individual models based on the same design d=giving a wide variation of styles. Something for everybody hopefully. See http://www.mevltd.co.uk/mevx5_gallery.htm

There are major advantages to that design as anyone at Detling will have seen for themselves.

I do think that is one of the low cost ways to go and I believe Sammio are offering another Non IVA Kit Car which is based on the old Triumph Herald. That one is not for me because I dislike the transverse leaf spring on those cars intensely. Nearly rolled several in a former life! The tuck under is a real challenge.

The old technology might cause me to wonder but once built and on the road and registered in the new form, you could change things steadily. Vast number of IVA car owners do just that. Haven't seen a Windscreen clad IVA test for months. See http://www.sammio-spyder.com/home.html

Again that's my threepennyworth. Doubtless others have their own favourites.

[DEN TANNER]

Steffan said:

No good looking at me for that inspiration, I am an Accountant......
....if any investment is made it should only be carried out without any borrowed money whatsoever.

Know what you mean.... I married one .
I started out, back in 1985, with £5,000 capital (my life's (or was it wife's) savings) and kept within my means. Never borrowed (apart from a mortgage on my house which I repaid as quickly as I could - ages ago) so have never been beholden to a bank or crippled by their interest charges.
But all that said, it doesn't answer the kit car world's predicament in respect it its shows - does it?

[Roman]

Just a couple of my thoughts briefly:

Amalgamation:
Get Classic car and Motorsport event organisers to incorporate a kit car exhibition. Both types of events are bound to attract plenty of people also interested in kit cars so a win win win for organisers, exhibitors and attendees. I imagine someone with experience of organising kit car shows could increase exhibitors and attendance numbers for a Classic Car show or motor sports event organiser and provide Kit manufacturers with a good commercial case for attending. Possibly cheaper to attend (judging by the number of auto jumble stalls & small traders at classic shows) and less organising headaches and financial risk than organising a stand alone kit car show too.

Paid for show test drives:
At the Cholmondley pageant of power the public can purchase a ride in a classic car around the estate with the proceeds going to charity. With the right venue, manufacturers could offer a passenger ride in their demonstrator for a fee of say, £10-15 (refundable with Kit order).
Helps recoup show costs for manufacturer.
Enhances selling opportunity.
Great reason for prospective buyers to attend to compare several products back to back.
Makes show much more of a fun, interactive experience for attendees.

Products:
With the advent of increased costs and legislation combined with increased competition (vast numbers of cheap MX5s, MGFs, Z3 &4s, S2Ks etc) I think desirability is key to persuading people to commit to £15k+ projects. 'Affordable' (£15-30k) replicas of hyper expensive, rare and desirable cars such as the Eagle E type and Porsche 904 are what I'd be looking at to justify higher costs and complexity:




Or
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/porsche-p904-carr...

Maybe an updated Wildcat/Challenger kit could be a suitable basis for an Eagle style replica and the wide track makes it easier to find suitable modern donors. There are already a couple of people who make 904 replicas and Boxster donors are plentiful and ever cheaper.

Edited by Roman on Sunday 15th April 20:53

[Furyblade_Lee]

I think a major fact of the industry's decline over the 10 years I been involved, is not the industry itself so much but 3 main factors:

1) Banks are not handing out free money any more.

2) You can buy a Lotus Elise or Caterham 7 for £8k upwards with zero depreciation, and drive it immediately.

And probobly the most significant for new kit car sales,

3) People upto the age of 30 did not really play with Lego and Meccano growing up. They have very little desire to "make" something. Their youth was not spent pondering over instructions of how to bolt something together, they sat and drove the most amazing cars in the world on a £34.99 video game.
They have no desire to build their own car, why the hell would they want to do that?? They want to drive glamorous / blingy / Jap sportscars.

Of course there are exceptions, but those I believe are major factors.

But there ARE plenty of young folk out there with enough disposable income to build a kit car, but how does the industry girate them towards itself, instaead of bl owing that £10K on chavving' up a Saxo? You just need to somehow wave the vehicles under their noses, and that means merging kitcar shows into much bigger events targeting a new younger audience.

[Steffan]

I think that the post by FurybladeLee is particularly relevant. I agree with him that the modern car buyers are not the Meccano generation anymore. They are the Nintendo/DSlite/iphone/Androidphone generation.

Their learning process is entirely different from mine and therefore their perception of what is worthwhile is different. I entirely agree with Lee that it is the marketing and buyer profile required to address such markets that the Kit Car industry needs to pick up on.

Why are there Saxo/Peugeot/JAP buyers who spend fortunes on their cars pimping up their rides, but having absolutely no connection with the Kit Car business in any way? That is the question which the kit car industry needs to address and clearly does not do so at the present time.

One of the busiest businesses I know in the Birmingham Car Mechanics is a small four man specialist builder and rebuilder of Turbo products. The business is literally stacked out with work. About 50% of which is fitting turbos to other cars with very substantial charges being paid on every one. He has his own rolling road and this runs 7 days a week with queues round the car park.

The problem is how do Kit Car builders address that market? Now that does require a bit if thought. But I do think that is an avenue which needs exploring. Good post FurybladeLee.

[MX7]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I think a major fact of the industry's decline over the 10 years I been involved, is not the industry itself so much but 3 main factors:

1) Banks are not handing out free money any more.

Agree. And even if they were, disposable income is a bit short at the moment.

Furyblade_Lee said:

2) You can buy a Lotus Elise or Caterham 7 for £8k upwards with zero depreciation, and drive it immediately.

Very true. It used to be that even if you only had a 1300 x-flow, you'd still have a very quick car. Now you can pick up a fast car for a few £k, the same as it'd cost you to build one. Even an MG was a dream as a kid. Now an MX5 is very accessible.

Furyblade_Lee said:

And probobly the most significant for new kit car sales,

3) People upto the age of 30 did not really play with Lego and Meccano growing up. They have very little desire to "make" something. Their youth was not spent pondering over instructions of how to bolt something together, they sat and drove the most amazing cars in the world on a £34.99 video game.

That's a great point. I'd hope that you are wrong, but I suspect that's the way it's going.

[DEN TANNER]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I think a major fact of the industry's decline over the 10 years I been involved, is not the industry itself so much but 3 main factors:
1) Banks are not handing out free money any more.
2) You can buy a Lotus Elise or Caterham 7 for £8k upwards with zero depreciation, and drive it immediately.
And probobly the most significant for new kit car sales,
3) People upto the age of 30 did not really play with Lego and Meccano growing up. They have very little desire to "make" something. Their youth was not spent pondering over instructions of how to bolt something together, they sat and drove the most amazing cars in the world on a £34.99 video game.
They have no desire to build their own car, why the hell would they want to do that?? They want to drive glamorous / blingy / Jap sportscars.
Of course there are exceptions, but those I believe are major factors.
But there ARE plenty of young folk out there with enough disposable income to build a kit car, but how does the industry girate them towards itself, instaead of blowing that £10K on chavving' up a Saxo? You just need to somehow wave the vehicles under their noses, and that means merging kitcar shows into much bigger events targeting a new younger audience.

I can think of other things which detract from our hobby too.....

They don't do metalwork classes in schools anymore. So basic skills such as cutting, drilling and bending of metals is a foreign concept to most youngsters. Brazing, welding, tapping are what's done in China..... I realise this is just an extension of what Lee's already said.

People don't generally work on their ordinary cars anymore either. An old Ford Capri came as standard with around 50BHP; and it was possible to buy and fit aftermarket carbs, manifolds, camshaft, electronic ignition with each providing an additional 10HP. Now all the tuning has already been done in a modern car...... or can't be done because of the computer..... or the modification clause in insurance policies... so little experience is gained as an introduction to something more exotic.... like building a kit car from scratch.

And building from scratch isn't as easy as it was either. What with modern cars now containing more computing power than NASAs moon landing spacecraft. And all the wiring that goes with those computers and gizmos.....

And with the HSE breathing down their necks, car breakers won't let people into their yards to find what they are looking for.... the only way they can be sure of getting all of what they're looking for. No mate.... didn't realise you wanted the plug on the end - we just 'cut out' the bit you asked for!!!

And as Steffan said, when it's done it's got to pass the Irritating, Vexing, Annoying test and be modified later. That's after shelling out £450 for the test itself and the inevitable £90 for the re-test plus the associated transport and Valium tablet costs.

Enevitably there are therefore fewer kit cars being sold.... but how does this move us forward in respect to our kit car shows?

[jeffw]

Getting back to the shows specifically...

1. There are too many of them. Would we miss them if the number was halved? Stoneleigh seems to be the only large one left (although I've never been to Exeter)
2. Costs for stand holders. I did some fag packets calculations before Detling around what I thought is would cost someone like Fury Sportscars or Sylva to do a 2 day show and I think it works out to the equivalent of a 1 - 1.5 cars sold (at least the profit margin). If you are selling 15-25 cars a year how can you justify 3-4 shows (or indeed any).
4. Kit car shows (with the exception of the Westfield Slalom thing) are static. There needs to be something going on where the cars move....like a drag strip which is done by a number of the VAG shows, slalom course, sprint, track day or something. It wouldn't be that expensive to use Bylton Park or somewhere similar.

[qdos]

Lee's points are very valid especially point 3

1. I think this is the only one that we can really address by engaging younger generations and dragging them away from the X-box I think anyone will agree an X-bow is way more fun than an X-box. We just need to show them that they can actually achieve these things if they apply their minds but more to the point their hands.

It's not just the car scene that feels this IT feels the same too have you seen the Raspberry Pi project?

What's happened is the education system has been dummed down and certificates are dished out for anything under the sun. But none of them actually mean you can actually do anything. To my mind showing what you can build is worth a thousand times more than any bits of paper. We need practical people to show kids the way not paper shufflers.

[DEN TANNER]

qdos said:

We need practical people to show kids the way not paper shufflers.

[one eyed mick]

1++++++to that dan!

[KDIcarmad]

Furyblade_Lee said:
But there ARE plenty of young folk out there with enough disposable income to build a kit car, but how does the industry girate them towards itself, instaead of bl owing that £10K on chavving' up a Saxo? You just need to somehow wave the vehicles under their noses, and that means merging kitcar shows into much bigger events targeting a new younger audience.

Steffan said:

Why are there Saxo/Peugeot/JAP buyers who spend fortunes on their cars pimping up their rides, but having absolutely no connection with the Kit Car business in any way? That is the question which the kit car industry needs to address and clearly does not do so at the present time.

I have meet a few of these young people with these cars. Talking to them I can answer why they are not interested kits. They only have one car! Most kit cars today are impractical, lacking weather protection and any space to carry much more than a sports bag. Saxo/Peugeot/VW offer that practicality, fitting a big engine or uprating suspension does not change that.

For many people in kit cars building the kit is the "hobby", for these young people it is about using the finished car. Bridge that gap and half the problem is dealt with. I have also notice they are happy putting a lot of power into front wheel drive, clearly the whole kit industry is uncomfortable with front wheel drive, as show by number of kits using it.

I have show a few kit car magazine. They disliked most of the Sevens, but like the classic Nova's and Ferrari replicas. One of them owns a MR2 (Mk3) with a 3 liter engine.