Detling - seasons opener
Discussion
Lee's nailed it from my point of view and bearing in mind the coments kdi made is it possible to follow this through to a logical conclusion?
Mechanical skills are lacking in sub 30 y/o market BUT they are used to modding culture. Short of training everyone - clearly not an option - kits need to be suitable for the next generation. The rebody is the obvious route afterall it's just a step up from body kits which they're familiar and comfortable with - interesting the Nova was mentioned being a bodyswap and IVA free. The next gen are unlikely to be readers of kit car mags though (see lack of skills above although you may get some who 'discover' by chance in Smiths library) does any demographic data exist which may prove older readership? - so advertising a rebody kit in them seems less effective - surely you'd advertise in a modzine for best coverage of that kind of audience? I remember the first kit car advert I ever saw - Dutton B Plus - where? In Exchange & Mart! (they didn't do to badly IIRC). Whilst you may not like it I still believe full builds will become increasingly more niche whereas rebodies are most likely to be more commercially successful in future as self build legislation becomes more restrictive
Mechanical skills are lacking in sub 30 y/o market BUT they are used to modding culture. Short of training everyone - clearly not an option - kits need to be suitable for the next generation. The rebody is the obvious route afterall it's just a step up from body kits which they're familiar and comfortable with - interesting the Nova was mentioned being a bodyswap and IVA free. The next gen are unlikely to be readers of kit car mags though (see lack of skills above although you may get some who 'discover' by chance in Smiths library) does any demographic data exist which may prove older readership? - so advertising a rebody kit in them seems less effective - surely you'd advertise in a modzine for best coverage of that kind of audience? I remember the first kit car advert I ever saw - Dutton B Plus - where? In Exchange & Mart! (they didn't do to badly IIRC). Whilst you may not like it I still believe full builds will become increasingly more niche whereas rebodies are most likely to be more commercially successful in future as self build legislation becomes more restrictive
This is what would like to see, how feasible it is I don't know.....
Let's say it's at Brands Hatch. On a Sunday or Saturday in the Summer. Now, fag paper maths is this: brands Hatch will (did) run a trackday for 100 cars @ £200 each. So theoretically £20,000 will "buy" the venue for the day. Similar concept to the first TotalKitCarLive! format, granted. Two cars per garage, so for £400 a manufacturer will get a "stand" of a Brands Hatch garage. Cleverly in the past ( I know this is what GTM did ) manufacturers got 2 keen drivers of their vehicles to pay for the trackday themselves, and be willing to give passenger rides for free ( or a small donation ) So possibly, the msnufacturer has now had to lay out nothing.... You then get upto 6 of your cars ( willing owners again ) to park at the back of the garage with a static display of their marque, showing people them up close.
3 things I think which are fundamental to kitcars are:
1) Building them. I know Stiggy is doing this at Stoneleigh, building a car in front of the public as they watch.
2) Driving them. Passenger rides ( with signed indemnities of course ) of either around the track OR on the surrounding country roads so people can experience what they are like to drive. Brands also has a rally stage, go kart track and off-road course, which for instance the Dakar Folk could demonstrate on. At worst, Brands themselves could charge for rides with their own vehicles.
3) Amateur Motorsport. Many of use kitcars for this, and hold MSA licences for sprints / hillclimbs / full on racing. It's a big part of kit car ownership for many. Maybe in the huge carpark where Caterham do their drift academy ( which could be run anyway?? a sprint could be held featuring kitcars only?? Someone like Sevenoaks Motor Club could get involved, they are the local car club. Or maybe early evening do a proper sprint on the main circuit, that is certainly viable and does happen anyway there.
And live music in the evening, needn't cost much, many bands are willing to play cheaply if they have a big audience. Maybe even have a open mic bandstand for local bands to play.
Traders, a marquee could be errected for people like CBS to sell from, autojumble, car sales area, tech talk about IVA, maybe a compare and start ramp style bit where during the day each manufacturer will park a car on and give a 10 minute speech about the company and vehicle?
Finally, advertise it heavily between ALL the mags, and outside press, call it something like "KitcarFest" with camping, evening BBQ and campfire, music. Maybe an organised run around for attendees around the local
lanes just like mini and VW clubs do?
Brands is a cracking venue, I'd imagine the venue will sell itself and Johnathan Palmer has in the past supported the industry. Maybe also an allcomers kit car race from all the kit car race series??
None of these ideas are new, but they work for other marques?
And finally, NO free entry for kitcar drivers. Maybe only £5 each, but enough to take some financial risk out of hosting the event. Like Detling, I got in free but I would much rather pay to get in and have a great day than pay nothing and it be bordering on crap. Kitcars for me are not static inanimate objects, thats for the polishing and bonnet lifting brigades, so the shows should not be static boring affairs either.
My car rights are now owned by RAW who were absent from Detling, I know for a fact me and JeffW would happily pay for a trackday out of our own pockets and fly the flag for them if something like this did happen, the same I feel would happen for Fury Sportscars, MEV, Westfield, Caterham, Tiger, MK, GD, Hawk,.... Just leaving manufacturer to turn up with a static demo car or two and some flyers.
Let's say it's at Brands Hatch. On a Sunday or Saturday in the Summer. Now, fag paper maths is this: brands Hatch will (did) run a trackday for 100 cars @ £200 each. So theoretically £20,000 will "buy" the venue for the day. Similar concept to the first TotalKitCarLive! format, granted. Two cars per garage, so for £400 a manufacturer will get a "stand" of a Brands Hatch garage. Cleverly in the past ( I know this is what GTM did ) manufacturers got 2 keen drivers of their vehicles to pay for the trackday themselves, and be willing to give passenger rides for free ( or a small donation ) So possibly, the msnufacturer has now had to lay out nothing.... You then get upto 6 of your cars ( willing owners again ) to park at the back of the garage with a static display of their marque, showing people them up close.
3 things I think which are fundamental to kitcars are:
1) Building them. I know Stiggy is doing this at Stoneleigh, building a car in front of the public as they watch.
2) Driving them. Passenger rides ( with signed indemnities of course ) of either around the track OR on the surrounding country roads so people can experience what they are like to drive. Brands also has a rally stage, go kart track and off-road course, which for instance the Dakar Folk could demonstrate on. At worst, Brands themselves could charge for rides with their own vehicles.
3) Amateur Motorsport. Many of use kitcars for this, and hold MSA licences for sprints / hillclimbs / full on racing. It's a big part of kit car ownership for many. Maybe in the huge carpark where Caterham do their drift academy ( which could be run anyway?? a sprint could be held featuring kitcars only?? Someone like Sevenoaks Motor Club could get involved, they are the local car club. Or maybe early evening do a proper sprint on the main circuit, that is certainly viable and does happen anyway there.
And live music in the evening, needn't cost much, many bands are willing to play cheaply if they have a big audience. Maybe even have a open mic bandstand for local bands to play.
Traders, a marquee could be errected for people like CBS to sell from, autojumble, car sales area, tech talk about IVA, maybe a compare and start ramp style bit where during the day each manufacturer will park a car on and give a 10 minute speech about the company and vehicle?
Finally, advertise it heavily between ALL the mags, and outside press, call it something like "KitcarFest" with camping, evening BBQ and campfire, music. Maybe an organised run around for attendees around the local
lanes just like mini and VW clubs do?
Brands is a cracking venue, I'd imagine the venue will sell itself and Johnathan Palmer has in the past supported the industry. Maybe also an allcomers kit car race from all the kit car race series??
None of these ideas are new, but they work for other marques?
And finally, NO free entry for kitcar drivers. Maybe only £5 each, but enough to take some financial risk out of hosting the event. Like Detling, I got in free but I would much rather pay to get in and have a great day than pay nothing and it be bordering on crap. Kitcars for me are not static inanimate objects, thats for the polishing and bonnet lifting brigades, so the shows should not be static boring affairs either.
My car rights are now owned by RAW who were absent from Detling, I know for a fact me and JeffW would happily pay for a trackday out of our own pockets and fly the flag for them if something like this did happen, the same I feel would happen for Fury Sportscars, MEV, Westfield, Caterham, Tiger, MK, GD, Hawk,.... Just leaving manufacturer to turn up with a static demo car or two and some flyers.
We did the TotalkitCarLive on a summer Saturday about 5 years ago, it was very busy and GTM had a queue all day got rides. We also did it on an October Tuesday 18 months ago, we had ZERO people wanting rides and there was nobody there. Weekdays won't work full stop. And it has to have lots of advertising,
Furyblade_Lee said:
We did the TotalkitCarLive on a summer Saturday about 5 years ago, it was very busy and GTM had a queue all day got rides. We also did it on an October Tuesday 18 months ago, we had ZERO people wanting rides and there was nobody there. Weekdays won't work full stop. And it has to have lots of advertising,
No, I don't think weekdays will work, but my point is that I think that Brands will want a lot more than £20k for a weekend.jeffw said:
It doesn't have to be Brands. There are a number of venues now (like Blyton Park) which are not actually race tracks and could be used at weekends.
But the idea is that it's a Southern kit car show, and there really aren't that many venues that are cost effective and can hold live events down here.Furyblade_Lee said:
We did the TotalkitCarLive on a summer Saturday about 5 years ago, it was very busy and GTM had a queue all day got rides. We also did it on an October Tuesday 18 months ago, we had ZERO people wanting rides and there was nobody there. Weekdays won't work full stop. And it has to have lots of advertising,
But the real point here is that even the busy Saturday show, whilst it might have worked for GTM, didn't work for the organiser. If the organiser can't make money, then he won't run it - simples!
jeffw said:
And if the Kit Car makers don't think it is viable they stay away and you get into the downward spiral.
And that's exactly where we are!And the organiser is to blame if you've an axe to grind and the weather is to blame if you don't. Either way, the spiral continues!
I've had a real good time in here over the past few days, but unfortunately work is calling me. I've got the next magazine (sorry, compendium of reprints) to finish before last Friday (not a typo).
Before I log-off, A big thanks to mick:-
one eyed mick said:
1++++++to that dan!
Another to smash:-smash said:
AdiT said:
All I did was express an opinion on which show was better (note, I didn't say either was good, bad or indifferent) and some people choose to get personal... and people wonder why some would have an axe to grind with Den.
What you say here is right.... I shouldn't have got personal.... please forgive me and put it down to my sensitivity.And to rdodger:-
rdodger said:
I don't know you......
Next time you see me at a show (not one of mine of course 
) come and introduce yourself and I'll buy you a beer. It would be my pleasure!!!! Edited by DEN TANNER on Monday 16th April 16:22
Well this thread ought to be retitled because there seems to be 3 distinct areas of 'conversation'
1/ Detling or a.n.other show in the South
2/ Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
3/ kit car shows in general - what works and what doesn't.
@ Lee.
the idea surrounding activity is spot on, demonstrating what teh cars can do on track or on a gentle drive is whats needed. I recall a spur of the moment test drive in a Dutton which i drove past that had a for sale sign on nigh on 30 yrs ago and i was hooked into kit cars.
BUT unless i'm very much mistaken the numbers for somewhere like Brands don't add up.
I enquired last year about the cost of the paddock to run a slalom type event and iirc it was about £4k MIDWEEK.
The idea though in general terms about using a circuit/airfield is bang on.
You only need look at some of the events that offer passenger rides to see that folks want action: Dads Day out being an easy/prime example. I suspect that where things become tricky is mixing business with pleasure. At DDO Caterhams run their donut/slalom - sorry by Caterham i mean the l7c owners club.
now many of those are known within that club, can you imagine opening up that kind of opportunity to any johnny come lately that isnt known to be half sensible? the potential impact ( no pun) would be right 'up there'.
I wanted to do passenger rides last year at Detling ( or to be accurate taking punters out from Detling) - the can or worms taht opened beggered belief.
IF as an example a track is hired then who is it for? the manufacturers presumably, and that solves the 'static issue' for Joe Public but not the general owners. Unless of course there's a seperate area where they can do a bit of slalom type stuff. The show at Donnington this year is an example of that - i was full of hope/interest when i heard it announced, less so when it came to light that the track action would be the 750mclub. Personally if i want to watch racing i'll nip over to Brands not travel halfway up teh country.
anyway back on track.
for my money the industry needs to have a long hard look at providing products that dont require iva or are a doddle to iva ( meaning more rebody type cars). I think in parallel it needs to look at ways of providing builders with the necessary to complete builds on a tight budget. Seems to me that in past decades folks were happy to use any old engine or part for their donor, now i hear of many folks buying crate engines and spending 2.5k + on that side alone. Aside from those that push the 'lowcost' boundaries there can't be amny cars that are completed for less than £10k which is a fair chunk on a toy.
given how many cars are never finished i can only guess that folks: lose interest when they find it isnt so easy - so it needs to be made as easy as poss.
run out of funds before finishing - but a 'complete' kit?
or build takes sooo long their situation changes - make it so simple its a quick and easy build.
Detling or a show in the south.
If there is a show of some description in teh south somewhere in teh Guildford type area woudl be bang on as it opens the doors to folks from a wider area. But frankly aside from Stoneleigh i dont think a traditional kit car show has much legs in it anymore, there isnt enough interest, not only from teh public but also the owners. As has been highlighted in previous pages, combining kits with other cars is probably the way forward.
Perfect Show?
Enough 'dry' space in case the weather does its worst.
track action for manufacturers
some other driving activity for owners
decent facilities for those that want to camp over and make a weekend of it
entertainment during teh afternoon and evening, creche for nippers etc
owners pay upfront towards the event to get commitment.
1/ Detling or a.n.other show in the South
2/ Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
3/ kit car shows in general - what works and what doesn't.
@ Lee.
the idea surrounding activity is spot on, demonstrating what teh cars can do on track or on a gentle drive is whats needed. I recall a spur of the moment test drive in a Dutton which i drove past that had a for sale sign on nigh on 30 yrs ago and i was hooked into kit cars.
BUT unless i'm very much mistaken the numbers for somewhere like Brands don't add up.
I enquired last year about the cost of the paddock to run a slalom type event and iirc it was about £4k MIDWEEK.
The idea though in general terms about using a circuit/airfield is bang on.
You only need look at some of the events that offer passenger rides to see that folks want action: Dads Day out being an easy/prime example. I suspect that where things become tricky is mixing business with pleasure. At DDO Caterhams run their donut/slalom - sorry by Caterham i mean the l7c owners club.
now many of those are known within that club, can you imagine opening up that kind of opportunity to any johnny come lately that isnt known to be half sensible? the potential impact ( no pun) would be right 'up there'.
I wanted to do passenger rides last year at Detling ( or to be accurate taking punters out from Detling) - the can or worms taht opened beggered belief.
IF as an example a track is hired then who is it for? the manufacturers presumably, and that solves the 'static issue' for Joe Public but not the general owners. Unless of course there's a seperate area where they can do a bit of slalom type stuff. The show at Donnington this year is an example of that - i was full of hope/interest when i heard it announced, less so when it came to light that the track action would be the 750mclub. Personally if i want to watch racing i'll nip over to Brands not travel halfway up teh country.
anyway back on track.
for my money the industry needs to have a long hard look at providing products that dont require iva or are a doddle to iva ( meaning more rebody type cars). I think in parallel it needs to look at ways of providing builders with the necessary to complete builds on a tight budget. Seems to me that in past decades folks were happy to use any old engine or part for their donor, now i hear of many folks buying crate engines and spending 2.5k + on that side alone. Aside from those that push the 'lowcost' boundaries there can't be amny cars that are completed for less than £10k which is a fair chunk on a toy.
given how many cars are never finished i can only guess that folks: lose interest when they find it isnt so easy - so it needs to be made as easy as poss.
run out of funds before finishing - but a 'complete' kit?
or build takes sooo long their situation changes - make it so simple its a quick and easy build.
Detling or a show in the south.
If there is a show of some description in teh south somewhere in teh Guildford type area woudl be bang on as it opens the doors to folks from a wider area. But frankly aside from Stoneleigh i dont think a traditional kit car show has much legs in it anymore, there isnt enough interest, not only from teh public but also the owners. As has been highlighted in previous pages, combining kits with other cars is probably the way forward.
Perfect Show?
Enough 'dry' space in case the weather does its worst.
track action for manufacturers
some other driving activity for owners
decent facilities for those that want to camp over and make a weekend of it
entertainment during teh afternoon and evening, creche for nippers etc
owners pay upfront towards the event to get commitment.
greengreenwood7 said:
Well this thread ought to be retitled because there seems to be 3 distinct areas of 'conversation'
1/ Detling or a.n.other show in the South
2/ Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
3/ kit car shows in general - what works and what doesn't.
I agree that, how to revive interest and sale conversations should be a topic in its own right, so I have started it. 1/ Detling or a.n.other show in the South
2/ Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
3/ kit car shows in general - what works and what doesn't.
TG are a bit precious about Dunsfold since that guy took his Ultima round. 
Is Guildford really a much better prospect than Detling? Admittedly, it's a bit more central (in general terms), but is somebody from North London any more likely to go to Guildford - south of Guildford at that - than they would be to go to Detling?
The other bit to consider is whether the venue would actually be interested in hosting a kit car show.
Wigan & DMC used to run an event (sprint or stage rally) at Flookburgh in Cumbria - maybe they still do. I do remember meetings when they were concerned about the event continuing because the guy who owned the circuit was limited (by his insurance) on the number of events he could host in any calendar year.
Apparently, he was much keener on hosting car boot sales because he made more money from those ...
Is Guildford really a much better prospect than Detling? Admittedly, it's a bit more central (in general terms), but is somebody from North London any more likely to go to Guildford - south of Guildford at that - than they would be to go to Detling?
The other bit to consider is whether the venue would actually be interested in hosting a kit car show.
Wigan & DMC used to run an event (sprint or stage rally) at Flookburgh in Cumbria - maybe they still do. I do remember meetings when they were concerned about the event continuing because the guy who owned the circuit was limited (by his insurance) on the number of events he could host in any calendar year.
Apparently, he was much keener on hosting car boot sales because he made more money from those ...
Just been catching up: am I missing something here, or has Den disappeared without responding to any of the suggestions, other than to rubbish specific (optimistic) venue suggestions.
The main suggestions seem to be:
- Top of the list seems to be a 'live' component as an integral part of the show, which might dictate change of venue, but I'm sure there's some middle ground between Detling & Brands..... I can't believe there are many venues like it nationally, but Bisley Pavilion (National Shooting Centre) is astonishing venue; if it could hold live event it'd be perfect.
- Consider merge / collaboration with another event, esp. Classic or Motorsport meeting.
- Calendar. Detling specifically: bit early (does being season's opener really matter that much?) Generally: why no event in July & August?
- Other stuff: make sure there are diversions for spouses and offspring dragged along. (or to combine it with second suggestion above, joint event with something non-automotive that might appeal to other family members.)
- Diversity / display. Though I seemed be in the minority concerning new product launches, there were concerns about depth and variety even within kits; and try not to make it look like a kitcar specific car park whilst you're at it.
One more that has occurred to me. A few comments here indicated that the show was a focal point of a bigger weekend, where you'd travelled en masse to the event, etc. All well & good if you are a member of SKCC, but why not make it 'official' part of show, welcome to allcomers with a series of starting points (maybe organised locally by clubs), with maybe some kind of barbie / party at show venue on eve of first public day? I'm not sure anyone expects a freelunch dinner these days, but make sure catering is up to snuff (maybe possible to negotiate rate with local gastropub, e.g. 10% off for ticketholders?), otherwise it'll be counterproductive (applies to show generally). Just about every show, there's an 'Anyone going to...?' thread, so the interest is there. The biggest investment might be time on social network sites: make the announcement early to get people talking, builds up a bit of momentum for the show.
Finally, even IF any of these suggestions are successfully adopted, it's gonna take more than one show to stop the rot, so some commitment is needed. Detling being at Detling next year doesn't fix anything - it just means they're going to repeat their mistake.
The main suggestions seem to be:
- Top of the list seems to be a 'live' component as an integral part of the show, which might dictate change of venue, but I'm sure there's some middle ground between Detling & Brands..... I can't believe there are many venues like it nationally, but Bisley Pavilion (National Shooting Centre) is astonishing venue; if it could hold live event it'd be perfect.
- Consider merge / collaboration with another event, esp. Classic or Motorsport meeting.
- Calendar. Detling specifically: bit early (does being season's opener really matter that much?) Generally: why no event in July & August?
- Other stuff: make sure there are diversions for spouses and offspring dragged along. (or to combine it with second suggestion above, joint event with something non-automotive that might appeal to other family members.)
- Diversity / display. Though I seemed be in the minority concerning new product launches, there were concerns about depth and variety even within kits; and try not to make it look like a kitcar specific car park whilst you're at it.
One more that has occurred to me. A few comments here indicated that the show was a focal point of a bigger weekend, where you'd travelled en masse to the event, etc. All well & good if you are a member of SKCC, but why not make it 'official' part of show, welcome to allcomers with a series of starting points (maybe organised locally by clubs), with maybe some kind of barbie / party at show venue on eve of first public day? I'm not sure anyone expects a free
Finally, even IF any of these suggestions are successfully adopted, it's gonna take more than one show to stop the rot, so some commitment is needed. Detling being at Detling next year doesn't fix anything - it just means they're going to repeat their mistake.
jeffw said:
No North Weald doesn't have any real indoor space....Blyton Park does though.
The obvious venue near Guildford would be the Top Gear Test Track at Dunsfold. If you could hire that you would get lots of interest...especially if you where running on the same track layout they use.
I'm not poss but the indoor area at Blyton Park does not look big enough to run any sort of worth while show ,there is a lot of ouside area but some of this would be limited if te track was being used and reading earlier posts how many from the south south of Watford would make the trip ?. I do a number of shows ,Stoneliegh,Newark ,Stafford [when its on ] Donnington etc also Tatton park and Cholmondly [?] plus small village type shows ,ok not all dedicated kit car shows but I'm sure that it's not just the ares I use has these eventslok out side the box there is plenty out there my ops only and tere are nodoubt peopleout ther will disagreeThe obvious venue near Guildford would be the Top Gear Test Track at Dunsfold. If you could hire that you would get lots of interest...especially if you where running on the same track layout they use.
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