Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?
Discussion
Can't say fairer than that.
The examples given are all detailed in the book, and I am sure if you get most of it for free or beer money and favours, and are happy to for instance use an engine you got for free that's just hangin around, you can build a seven type even today for very little money. However shiny dash clocks and a set of cams are tempting! Plus £250 in 1996 is £500 in todays cash so you can double your budget just on inflation.
Daniel
The examples given are all detailed in the book, and I am sure if you get most of it for free or beer money and favours, and are happy to for instance use an engine you got for free that's just hangin around, you can build a seven type even today for very little money. However shiny dash clocks and a set of cams are tempting! Plus £250 in 1996 is £500 in todays cash so you can double your budget just on inflation.
Daniel
Love the venn diagram. Sums it up.
Yeah, the Locost phenomenon was an interest time, even if a little unrealistic for most. I bought the book, met the man but never built the car. It was just beyond me. No tinkering skills, no garage. But I met some interesting blokes along the way, at Kit Car shows and other meets.
It's amazing the lengths some people will go to, to squeeze an impossible engine into a home built special; the best of which were as good as any Caterham, the worst were deathtraps. Ron told me about one very early car, with an almost standard chassis with a Rover V8. Ron said that, without chassis modification there was a danger of the chassis buckling under the torque. And do bear in mind, some of those early chassis were "welded" by people who'd put themselves through a crash course in welding, who weren't quite as good as they thought. This is the point where we admit we're actually in some way grateful for the SVA/IVA test. At least it eliminated the crazy risk takers.
There were some pretty adventurous engine installations in kit cars before then. I remember a Striker advertised in the back of Which Kit magazine with a Rover 2.7 24v V6, and small kit cars with various BMW six and eight cylinder engines and even a Ford 5.0 iron block V8.
Still, to top all of that, I was at a fuel forecourt one time, and some salty old dude pulls in on a custom chopper. I glanced at it and thought there was something different about it. Went over to have a chat, and saw,'F-O-R-D' written on the engine. He said it was a Ford Windsor 4.2 V8, in a lightweight custom bike! I was like, wow, it must be so quick! He said, "Arghh, it's not too bad". Best case of false modesty I've ever seen.
Yeah, the Locost phenomenon was an interest time, even if a little unrealistic for most. I bought the book, met the man but never built the car. It was just beyond me. No tinkering skills, no garage. But I met some interesting blokes along the way, at Kit Car shows and other meets.
It's amazing the lengths some people will go to, to squeeze an impossible engine into a home built special; the best of which were as good as any Caterham, the worst were deathtraps. Ron told me about one very early car, with an almost standard chassis with a Rover V8. Ron said that, without chassis modification there was a danger of the chassis buckling under the torque. And do bear in mind, some of those early chassis were "welded" by people who'd put themselves through a crash course in welding, who weren't quite as good as they thought. This is the point where we admit we're actually in some way grateful for the SVA/IVA test. At least it eliminated the crazy risk takers.
There were some pretty adventurous engine installations in kit cars before then. I remember a Striker advertised in the back of Which Kit magazine with a Rover 2.7 24v V6, and small kit cars with various BMW six and eight cylinder engines and even a Ford 5.0 iron block V8.
Still, to top all of that, I was at a fuel forecourt one time, and some salty old dude pulls in on a custom chopper. I glanced at it and thought there was something different about it. Went over to have a chat, and saw,'F-O-R-D' written on the engine. He said it was a Ford Windsor 4.2 V8, in a lightweight custom bike! I was like, wow, it must be so quick! He said, "Arghh, it's not too bad". Best case of false modesty I've ever seen.
Reading these messages you get the sinking feeling it's all over! Which makes me sad having been into kit cars for many years. I think irrespective of whether you're scratch building or a kit car manufacturer you have to accept that performance isn't the USP of a kit car any more. Modern hot hatches have accessible performance covered now, or as others say a cheap used Boxster 
gives plenty of usable performance. What is the USP is individuality and the thrill of driving.
70mph in a Westfield with no doors is an assault on the senses, but in a modern car can send you to sleep. Fun at any speed is part of owning something raw and a bit different.
For individuality, kit cars can take advantage of not having to comply with pedestrian impact legislation etc and come up with truly beautiful or spectacular designs. Nova opening canopy for example! Or being able to own a replica of a classic car that's priced out of reality now like a GT40.
I've had an idea for a scratch build car for maybe 20 years now and the impending demise of ICE and registering petrol engined cars had finally forced me to make getting it done a reality, and stop flipping procrastinating.
gives plenty of usable performance. What is the USP is individuality and the thrill of driving. 70mph in a Westfield with no doors is an assault on the senses, but in a modern car can send you to sleep. Fun at any speed is part of owning something raw and a bit different.
For individuality, kit cars can take advantage of not having to comply with pedestrian impact legislation etc and come up with truly beautiful or spectacular designs. Nova opening canopy for example! Or being able to own a replica of a classic car that's priced out of reality now like a GT40.
I've had an idea for a scratch build car for maybe 20 years now and the impending demise of ICE and registering petrol engined cars had finally forced me to make getting it done a reality, and stop flipping procrastinating.
Johnny5hoods said:
Love the venn diagram. Sums it up.
Yeah, the Locost phenomenon was an interest time, even if a little unrealistic for most. I bought the book, met the man but never built the car. It was just beyond me. No tinkering skills, no garage. But I met some interesting blokes along the way, at Kit Car shows and other meets.
It's amazing the lengths some people will go to, to squeeze an impossible engine into a home built special; the best of which were as good as any Caterham, the worst were deathtraps. Ron told me about one very early car, with an almost standard chassis with a Rover V8. Ron said that, without chassis modification there was a danger of the chassis buckling under the torque. And do bear in mind, some of those early chassis were "welded" by people who'd put themselves through a crash course in welding, who weren't quite as good as they thought. This is the point where we admit we're actually in some way grateful for the SVA/IVA test. At least it eliminated the crazy risk takers.
There were some pretty adventurous engine installations in kit cars before then. I remember a Striker advertised in the back of Which Kit magazine with a Rover 2.7 24v V6, and small kit cars with various BMW six and eight cylinder engines and even a Ford 5.0 iron block V8.
Still, to top all of that, I was at a fuel forecourt one time, and some salty old dude pulls in on a custom chopper. I glanced at it and thought there was something different about it. Went over to have a chat, and saw,'F-O-R-D' written on the engine. He said it was a Ford Windsor 4.2 V8, in a lightweight custom bike! I was like, wow, it must be so quick! He said, "Arghh, it's not too bad". Best case of false modesty I've ever seen.
I like it.Yeah, the Locost phenomenon was an interest time, even if a little unrealistic for most. I bought the book, met the man but never built the car. It was just beyond me. No tinkering skills, no garage. But I met some interesting blokes along the way, at Kit Car shows and other meets.
It's amazing the lengths some people will go to, to squeeze an impossible engine into a home built special; the best of which were as good as any Caterham, the worst were deathtraps. Ron told me about one very early car, with an almost standard chassis with a Rover V8. Ron said that, without chassis modification there was a danger of the chassis buckling under the torque. And do bear in mind, some of those early chassis were "welded" by people who'd put themselves through a crash course in welding, who weren't quite as good as they thought. This is the point where we admit we're actually in some way grateful for the SVA/IVA test. At least it eliminated the crazy risk takers.
There were some pretty adventurous engine installations in kit cars before then. I remember a Striker advertised in the back of Which Kit magazine with a Rover 2.7 24v V6, and small kit cars with various BMW six and eight cylinder engines and even a Ford 5.0 iron block V8.
Still, to top all of that, I was at a fuel forecourt one time, and some salty old dude pulls in on a custom chopper. I glanced at it and thought there was something different about it. Went over to have a chat, and saw,'F-O-R-D' written on the engine. He said it was a Ford Windsor 4.2 V8, in a lightweight custom bike! I was like, wow, it must be so quick! He said, "Arghh, it's not too bad". Best case of false modesty I've ever seen.
Absolutely. I have a copy of the book too, cracking read. I also had a housemate at uni that actually made one and did a seriously tidy job, did a few 750mc events, before moving onto single seaters. Family history of it, but between them the didthe lot from the chassis to laying up the glass fiber for wings etc. Might have bought the nose/scuttle I think.
I am also 80% of the way through a 'locost' re-engine of the westfield to a 2l blacktop, all my own work really, ex-focus 'scrap' engine, made the engine mounts, drilled out and resurfaced flywheel, will be reusing the megajolt I fitted to the cvh, etc. However during the time life changed and I am now out of 'graduate engineering student with time on his hands' to 'senior engineer manager, long term partner, house project' and if doing it again would have bought a off the shelf kit of bits or a used engine package and hugely reduced the work in exchange for money!
V8 motorbike, why not!
Daniel
Nikolai said:
Reading these messages you get the sinking feeling it's all over! Which makes me sad having been into kit cars for many years. I think irrespective of whether you're scratch building or a kit car manufacturer you have to accept that performance isn't the USP of a kit car any more. Modern hot hatches have accessible performance covered now, or as others say a cheap used Boxster gives plenty of usable performance. What is the USP is individuality and the thrill of driving.
70mph in a Westfield with no doors is an assault on the senses, but in a modern car can send you to sleep. Fun at any speed is part of owning something raw and a bit different.
For individuality, kit cars can take advantage of not having to comply with pedestrian impact legislation etc and come up with truly beautiful or spectacular designs. Nova opening canopy for example! Or being able to own a replica of a classic car that's priced out of reality now like a GT40.
I've had an idea for a scratch build car for maybe 20 years now and the impending demise of ICE and registering petrol engined cars had finally forced me to make getting it done a reality, and stop flipping procrastinating.
Can't fault that. gives plenty of usable performance. What is the USP is individuality and the thrill of driving. 70mph in a Westfield with no doors is an assault on the senses, but in a modern car can send you to sleep. Fun at any speed is part of owning something raw and a bit different.
For individuality, kit cars can take advantage of not having to comply with pedestrian impact legislation etc and come up with truly beautiful or spectacular designs. Nova opening canopy for example! Or being able to own a replica of a classic car that's priced out of reality now like a GT40.
I've had an idea for a scratch build car for maybe 20 years now and the impending demise of ICE and registering petrol engined cars had finally forced me to make getting it done a reality, and stop flipping procrastinating.
As said, the time of it being a tax loophole surrounded by lack of affordable fast cars is over, as is being forced into bangernomics against your will as a young adult.
However there are still a reasonable number of us types who fancy doing something fun. I am 32 and a lot of my peer are in financed fiestas, cant really fault it in many ways, but I am also an engineer, so have my share of uni mates who have or aspire to have kitcars, vintage cars, do banger racing, a load with vintage or trails landrovers, done up an old narrowboat for student digs. I have inherited a steam narrowboat, and know a load of people in the 20's plus into steam traction engines.
I have a Westfield used for fast road and autotesting, and the daily is currently a 20yo x-reg E46 330ci. Not owned a 'new-plate' car yet and alway bought outright in cash.
Hard to predict the future, the proposed ban in IC engine cars will be an interesting milestone, but if there is 5-10 years where you can't buy a new petrol car but you can build one, or buy a second hand one, it might actually be a boost to interest in cars and in kitcars!
There are already people making interesting diy 'back-yard' electric cars, and I can only see that increasing.
Daniel
mikeveal said:
Gemaeden said:
Any takers?
Oh well, that's easy then.You design, prototype and take to production and we'll let you know if we fancy one.
In all seriousness, with the legislated demise of the ICE and the performance of the all-electric replacements, it's hard to see a future for kits.
A Tesla 3 hits 60 in 3.2 seconds in performance spec. (5.4s in standard spec.) I don't know of any kit that can do that, in comfort, with four seats and a usable boot. And I don't foresee one.
Batteries are difficult to manage, especially if you want fast charge, fast discharge and longevity. I believe (practical) bespoke battery packs are out of the range of the DIY kit car industry. Yeah, sure it can be done, but with heavy batteries, limited range and poor longevity.
It doesn't look like electric cars will have battery packs that are swapped out every time you go for a recharge. The packs themselves are far too heavy and from necessity are built into the structure (floorplan) of the car. So I don't think that there will be a donor option.
Having instantly responsive power available at each wheel allows the electric car designer to get very creative with torque vectoring and all kinds of special sauce. Again, this level of development is beyond the kit car market. The investment required simply outweighs the potential return.
I'd love to be wrong, but I think the days of the kit outperforming mainstream tin tops are limited. The kit will still be a very different driving experience, but you'll be able to go faster, in more comfort, for further with a tin top.
Even with all its torque a Tesla can't squeeze between rows of traffic, so I maintain that from A to B in most places this vehicle will be quicker. As a kit trike rather than car, the MSVA is easier than IVA too.
Gemaeden said:
This is a kit car forum so I didn't envisage this idea being taken to production, but being offered as a kit.
If you think that there is no difference between a special / prototype and a kit, then you are indeed ready to join the long list of people who have tried and failed to be successful in the industry. 
By taken to production, I do not mean type approved and sold turnkey.
I merely mean developed so far beyond the one off special that you originally built, that not only can it be sold as a kit for someone else to build, but also that you can construct that kit economically enough to make a profit.
For most aspirant engineers, there's a chasm between the two stages. But I'll freely admit, the more experience you have, the smaller the gap.
mikeveal said:
Just seen this. I'm offended that you'd dare to ask!
Let's just say that three wheelers are only one wheel short of imperfection.
Well that's my point. No issue with bikes, but unless you're a biker with an injury or need to carry more kit, of want something inherently unusual, i struggle to see the advantage of a trike over a 7type or equivalent. Let's just say that three wheelers are only one wheel short of imperfection.
I have however not tried one, and I guess each to their own. Nice cruiser might work? If not a sporty option.
Daniel
mikeveal said:
Gemaeden said:
Any takers?
Oh well, that's easy then...The basic concept of a modern, high performance, superbike-engined 3-wheeler is hardly new. The Malone Skunk is probably the best and most desirable of the breed, and is a genuinely competent and well-engineered little car - but still only sold in handfuls.
There are positives to 3-wheelers, but also negatives that have to be overcome, versus their 4-wheel brethren. Rightly or wrongly, the market has decided that trikes are a niche solution, even within the kit-car market, and you're not going to convince them otherwise: many, many people have tried, and all have failed.
Equus said:
mikeveal said:
Gemaeden said:
Any takers?
Oh well, that's easy then...The basic concept of a modern, high performance, superbike-engined 3-wheeler is hardly new. The Malone Skunk is probably the best and most desirable of the breed, and is a genuinely competent and well-engineered little car - but still only sold in handfuls.
There are positives to 3-wheelers, but also negatives that have to be overcome, versus their 4-wheel brethren. Rightly or wrongly, the market has decided that trikes are a niche solution, even within the kit-car market, and you're not going to convince them otherwise: many, many people have tried, and all have failed.
Ok it doesn't tilt (well, not in the way you're planning), but it's close
www.3wheelers.com/hudson.html
Hudson Free spirit and kindred spirit (tandem 2-seater)
Nice little cars.
www.3wheelers.com/hudson.html
Hudson Free spirit and kindred spirit (tandem 2-seater)
Nice little cars.
Equus said:
Gemaeden said:
The idea is not to have a car width vehicle but a bike width one that is statically stable, due to it having a triangular plan rather than linear plan. This is new.
No it's not.
The fact that you have never seen one on the road tells you all you need to know.
Fastpedeller said:
Ok it doesn't tilt (well, not in the way you're planning), but it's close
www.3wheelers.com/hudson.html
Hudson Free spirit and kindred spirit (tandem 2-seater)
Nice little cars.
Neither of these are bike width.www.3wheelers.com/hudson.html
Hudson Free spirit and kindred spirit (tandem 2-seater)
Nice little cars.
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