KIT CAR DEVELOPMENT COSTS?

[Steffan]

Stuart Mills said:

The figures I posted were to spark debate but the vast majority on here are not manufacturers, and can only guess true costs. The fact is that if fictitious Fred in his shed who was good at welding and woodwork had a go he may succeed. He could buy books re chassis design and grp, get a free website then exhibit his product in the show car parks were you get in free in a kit. A little sad if that is the only way to make it pay though. So your right, if Fred possessed some or all of the prerequisite skills then my figures are completely out.
Please feel free to post a more attractive set of figures based on more conservative estimates and increased sales income. The number of years it takes to see the initial investment returned is the bottom line.
What do we think would be a reasonable % return in other industries?
5 years = 20%, 2 years = 50%?

Interesting question Stuart.

From my knowledge of Kit Car Manufacturers in the UK, the real costs of producing a new car from scratch, which I have gained over the years I was in practice as an Accountant your figures are actually pretty reasonable.

There is a world of difference between the man in a shed designing and building a car and professionals doing the same for a living. I could trim your costs slightly but the prime costs of employing somebody with the skills needed to actually build a car from scratch is not going to be cheap.

Nor are the premises, the health and safety requirements and the outsourcing such as mould making and body laying. Or the chassis design, donor sourcing and deciding the question of which donor to use.

All these activities require individual manual and professional skills. Very few amateurs could approach such a complete project from scratch.

I have been fortunate to witness a number of complete new Kit Cars being designed built and a prototype built from start to finish in the UK KIT Car industry.

With the original ideas being given to a stylist and turned into a set of plans and then converted through a long and complex process into a finished drivable car and I can assure you every one has cost in the region of the figures you have suggested. The cost of this exercise figures have in every case been at least as high and frequently higher than the totals you are showing in your original post.

On the subject of Fred in a Shed I have met a handful of motor engineers and car designers who could combine the ability to operate and modify the mechanics into a running car. I have met a handful of designers who understand the car sufficiently to design a new different car and make it work.

But the two together. Few if any have that combination of abilities vision and knowledge of the product. S. Mills obviously. Elsewhere most of the Kit Car business seems to combine the skills of a number of individuals into a team effort, out of necessity.

I think there is mileage in this effort to provoke thought on the subject. I will read the opinions of others with interest

[Russ Bost]

cymtriks said:

What has changed in the market over the last twenty years?

Blimey, quicker to say what hasn't, 20 years ago a car died when it was 10 years old because the body was rotted or the engine/gearbox blew up, typical mileages b4 requiring a major rebuild were 60 - 100,000 miles, electrics were simple & carburettors were common, emissions limits for MoT were 4.5% CO & 1200ppm HC's (& stuff STILL failed!!!). A wiring loom was the thickness of your thumb, airbags didn't exist & nor, really did aircon, build quality was atrocious on all but a few (mainly German &, dare I say it, some Japanese vehicles). Diesels were nasty, dirty, noisy, slow smelly things, usually with a "Taxi" sign on the roof!
Nowadays a car dies, still when it's 10 years old, because the ECU packs up, or the immobiliser refuses to unimmobilise (is that a word???) or it won't meet MoT emissions & it would cost too much (new cats, lambda etc + diagnostic work) to fix it.

So you have some fairly major changes to the donor market, then let's look at build quality & value for money of small hatchbacks, sports cars like the MX5, RX7 or 8, Toyota MR 2, Vauxhall 220, TVR, Lotus, Boxster etc etc etc, you can now buy a very quick little sports car for substantially less than you could ever dream of building one for, then of course you'd have to pay around £500 to get it IVA'd & registered even assuming it passed first time, which it almost certainly won't.

Apart from the above there are probably 4 or 5 times the number of different variants & models of tintop to choose from (albeit that we've "lost" probably a dozen manufacturers in all but name only)&, just to top it off there are now so many speed cameras & "speed kills" enthusiasts to wreck your day & the roads are clogged solid at anything later than about 7am on a Sunday morning anywhere South of Hadrians' Wall that it's almost impossible to enjoy yourself on the road anymore (tho' i would like to point out I DO still manage to!! )

I'm sure there are many other things I've missed, but that should do for now!

[cymtriks]

1point7bar said:

One reason is customers can get so much more bang for their buck buying production cars like Skylines, Scoobies, Lancers etc.

Has this actually changed the market for Seven's, Cobra replicas, exoskeletons and Furys though?

seansverige said:

The MX-5, Elise, Z3, & Boxster et al have all been introduced in the last twenty years - latest issue of Car points out batting now starts at £6k for Boxsters.

Cheap but nowhere near as focused as track day type kits, not replicas of anything exotic either.

Russ Bost said:

Blimey, quicker to say what hasn't, 20 years ago a car died when it was 10 years old because the body was rotted or the engine/gearbox blew up, typical mileages b4 requiring a major rebuild were 60 - 100,000 miles, electrics were simple & carburettors were common, emissions limits for MoT were 4.5% CO & 1200ppm HC's (& stuff STILL failed!!!). A wiring loom was the thickness of your thumb, airbags didn't exist & nor, really did aircon, build quality was atrocious on all but a few (mainly German &, dare I say it, some Japanese vehicles). Diesels were nasty, dirty, noisy, slow smelly things, usually with a "Taxi" sign on the roof!
Nowadays a car dies, still when it's 10 years old, because the ECU packs up, or the immobiliser refuses to unimmobilise (is that a word???) or it won't meet MoT emissions & it would cost too much (new cats, lambda etc + diagnostic work) to fix it.

So you have some fairly major changes to the donor market, then let's look at build quality & value for money of small hatchbacks, sports cars like the MX5, RX7 or 8, Toyota MR 2, Vauxhall 220, TVR, Lotus, Boxster etc etc etc, you can now buy a very quick little sports car for substantially less than you could ever dream of building one for, then of course you'd have to pay around £500 to get it IVA'd & registered even assuming it passed first time, which it almost certainly won't.

Apart from the above there are probably 4 or 5 times the number of different variants & models of tintop to choose from (albeit that we've "lost" probably a dozen manufacturers in all but name only)&, just to top it off there are now so many speed cameras & "speed kills" enthusiasts to wreck your day & the roads are clogged solid at anything later than about 7am on a Sunday morning anywhere South of Hadrians' Wall that it's almost impossible to enjoy yourself on the road anymore (tho' i would like to point out I DO still manage to!! )

I'm sure there are many other things I've missed, but that should do for now!

So the engines now come with black boxes and catylists. Is this actually a problem for kits?

Competition from cheap mass produced stuff is a much bigger change. It is probably THE change, but as I pointed out above they're nowhere near as focused as track day type kits, not replicas of anything exotic either.


The bottom line is that if you want a Seven, a replica of a sixties classic, a wild looking exoskeleton or a track day special only a kit car will give you what you are looking for. (with the possible exception of the Elise for the last category but even then it's a bit heavier than most kits)

[Russ Bost]

Stuart Mills said:

The figures I posted were to spark debate but the vast majority on here are not manufacturers, and can only guess true costs. The fact is that if fictitious Fred in his shed who was good at welding and woodwork had a go he may succeed. He could buy books re chassis design and grp, get a free website then exhibit his product in the show car parks were you get in free in a kit. A little sad if that is the only way to make it pay though. So your right, if Fred possessed some or all of the prerequisite skills then my figures are completely out.
Please feel free to post a more attractive set of figures based on more conservative estimates and increased sales income. The number of years it takes to see the initial investment returned is the bottom line.
What do we think would be a reasonable % return in other industries?
5 years = 20%, 2 years = 50%?

When I built the first Furore (I mean the original twin engined car, not the first of the production cars) I had no intention of building more, the car was built by me, for me, in my own garage at my home, so I pretty much was "Fred". When I retired from the motor trade I bought a lathe, a chop saw a decent propane heater & a welder, but other than that had only hand tools & basic power tools, drill, grinder etc. I bought an old Formula Ford chassis as a basis, but cut it in half & extended it, I made everything myself, & I mean everything from new suspension & mounting points to steering column mounts, fuel tanks (1 in steel & 1 in fibreglass - couldn't do the latter now due to IVA!), all the bodywork & most of the wings, I even made the drivers seat, & I did all aluminium & fibreglass work myself & even painted the car myself. I'm not going to say exactly what it cost me, but I had change out of £10k by the time it was on the road (& that includes 2 x bike engines) including all on the road costs & insurance. I had no significant overheads other than a bit of power & heating

Obviously if I added my labour even at £10 an hour, it wouldn't look so good as it took around 2,000 hours+ !

Now you could say therefore, that "Fred" building a much simpler & less unusual vehicle without many of the engineering issues & complex bodywork issues the car threw up could conceivably build his 2 seater roadster for around 1,000 hours for the total prototype to a working car, & probably about the same again to pull it apart, make jigs & moulds ready to build more cars & put it back together again. If "Fred" is happy to pay himself £10 an hour & can knock up a website (did the first 2 of those myself too ) for himself & uses his personal bank account etc then I guess you have your "lowest realistic real world estimate" of around £20k, plus, say, £5000 to cover some basic equipment, computer, donor, raw materials etc. & a banger of a trailer & estate car (saves money on a van & can still double as family transport!)

So, to get to the point, I think being even vaguely realistic, working from home & cutting overheads to the bone & assuming that "Fred" can be stylist, investor, chassis & suspension designer, entrepreneur, web designer, welder, fabricator, fibreglass laminator, accountant & paint sprayer he could, conceivably produce his first car for around £25k & have the moulds & jigs to produce more, at this point he doesn't have the 4 chassis & bodywork you mention to sell 4 kits, but nor does he have the costs associated with shows & marketing, but without which he ain't gonna sell many cars unless he just happens to have produced the best thing since sliced bread & it would also need to be fairly unique too.

So, again being realistic, take another years wages which at £10 an hour, 40 hours a week, 48 weeks a year comes to best part of £20k, & add in another £10k to cover the raw materials for the 4 kits he hopes to sell, & the marketing/advertising/show costs which he has to make to stand any realistic chance of selling those 4 kits & at the end of year one you have the original £25k from above, plus £20k wages, & £10k materials/marketing/advertising/show costs against which he has made £2k "profit" per kit (& presumably got back the raw material costs, so lets be generous & give another £4k for that), so effective income is £12k against outgoings of £55k

I'm going to put that in a separate sentence £55k outgoings, to acheive £12k of "earnings", you'd have to say Fred is going to have to be very determined, very stupid, or be getting A LOT more orders in (at which point he'll have to take on premises & staff to meet those orders! So more costs) or Freds' Project X won't be around for long!

So, Stuart, I guess the question now is, are we as kitcar manufacturers, very determined, very stupid or what??? (Fairly certain I'm both very determined & very stupid as well as pig headed & blinkered, but hey, we all have our good points, right! )

[1point7bar]

cymtriks said:

1point7bar said:

One reason is customers can get so much more bang for their buck buying production cars like Skylines, Scoobies, Lancers etc.

Has this actually changed the market for Seven's, Cobra replicas, exoskeletons and Furys though?

The garages used for the 'Fred's shed' example don't belong to the kit enthusiast in the same quantity as 20 years ago.
The next generation are property poorer because 'Fred's shed' still belongs to him, but now he is mid fifties, drives a German saloon and only has photos to remember the good ol' days (when he had hair).

[Steve_D]

Russ Bost said:

.....I'm sure there are many other things I've missed, but that should do for now!

What you have missed is that the youth of today do not 'mess about' with cars...they just drive them. The result is they are even less likely to venture into building a car.

When I was 16 I was driving and repairing my first car..an Isetta bubble car.
I also was building my first kit car (called a 'Special' in those days).

Much of this comes from the modern car design where there is very little you can do with them without extensive knowledge. Even main dealers struggle to keep up with the progress.

So yes, things have changed in 20 years.

Steve

[Stuart Mills]

Hey Russ, were you serious when you asked if I could build your cars for £1000?
Depends how long it takes but I don't get out of bed for less than £3.50 an hour!

[smash]

I think Fred the Shed missed a step in the original list: Granting of charity status from the charities commission.

Wow - none of you make any money, plough more and more in, mass up more debt and still do it for, well, for us, the great British kit car buying public out of the goodness of your hearts (and never go tits up and knock loads of other struggling UK businesses). I'm welling up, truly I am. I know what companies I'll be looking up when I get into work Monday morning... (no offence Steffan but I don't necessarily trust accountants for professional reasons)

Kit cars have been in my family since the late 80's when I helped my brother build a Midas Gold. I've had them on and off over the years - always bought built though (after someone's done their brains on the initial depreciation). I've enjoyed every single one of them - and even enjoyed rebulding the engine on my cobra and retriming the P4 interior in ali. I've had great service from the manufacturers as well - even when one car was well into it's teens new gas rams were sent out before I'd paid for them! (AK cars gold merit award). Been to Stoneleigh and Detling many times and have always had great respect for manufacturers but these two CKC inspired threads are really letting me see things in a different light.

Far from CKC damaging the industry I think some of the manufacturers postings are in danger of doing that all by themselves - all this whingey-whiney, "We know best, you're cheating/espionage" "how dare you suggest we engineer our cars from the inside out" "we do do design" (yeah - a bonnet made by taking a rectangle and cutting two corners off *cough* mevx5 *cough* could only be an engineers approach and sure as hell not a designer/stylists) and then frankly some outright BS that's on this thread...true colours on display.

Someone said about a potential lost sale on the other thread well I can tell you there are now definite manufacturers I'd swerve based on attitude displayed here on PH.

I was totally behind the CKC project anyway but now after all the whinging I find myself desperately hoping they open a massive can of:



on your manufacturing sorry behinds - really pull a blinding little design that makes everyone go "Wow, you can make that with a kit?!" At which point you'll all copy it (for charity of course) now you've brow beaten CKC into crushing it post creation.

[MG CHRIS]

Steve_D said:

Russ Bost said:

.....I'm sure there are many other things I've missed, but that should do for now!

What you have missed is that the youth of today do not 'mess about' with cars...they just drive them. The result is they are even less likely to venture into building a car.

When I was 16 I was driving and repairing my first car..an Isetta bubble car.
I also was building my first kit car (called a 'Special' in those days).

Much of this comes from the modern car design where there is very little you can do with them without extensive knowledge. Even main dealers struggle to keep up with the progress.

So yes, things have changed in 20 years.

Steve

Im not 100% on that the youth of today are still intrestd in car i restored my first car a 1979 mgb gt when i was 15 bought my first kit a quantum coupe last year and am building my first kit car this year just bought a donor for it.

The industry needs to move on modern cars are what is needed to move the industry on cars like the bmw 3 series and mx5 have become very popular they are new enough to be reliable and quick but old enough in that you can still work on them and are easier to work on than old care with carbs, points and so on.

You can get obd readers for under 100 quid so what the problem with new donors.

Youngster will not be intrested in a kit that has an engine from the 70s-80s it needs to be new or in the last 10-15 years i rather plug in a computer to remap a ecu than mess around with constantly adjusting points, and so on.

You said modern cars get wrote off due to expensive repairs with ecu and so on, didn't old car get wrote off due to the body and chassis being mainly rust?

[1point7bar]

Fleet turnover is also slow.

There aren't lots of new exciting models to tempt trading up and used kit cars are

way to easy to keep alive(from a consumer product standpoint).

[1point7bar]

smash said:

I retriming the P4 interior in ali.

Did the P4 have Rubery Owen Rockwell metalastic bushes in the wishbones?

[Stuart Mills]

1point7bar said:

There aren't lots of new exciting models to tempt trading up and used kit cars are

way to easy to keep alive(from a consumer product standpoint).

That's an interesting point, I wonder how many kit cars that made it on to the roads are still on the roads or could be put back on without too much trouble? That may suggest that the way to compete with all the second hand kits on sale is to ensure that new products are offered that are sufficiently different to those produced in large numbers in the past. Thankfully Exocet sells very well and allows us to earn a living and still reinvest in new products. At Stoneleigh Team MEV will launch 2 new kits that are not aimed at the Cobra or 7 market, they will be a bike engined exo car known as MEVABUSA and a restyled MEVX5. We will see if we can tempt customers to buy new instead of one of the second hand kits on sale.

[Steffan]

Smash, you can distrust all accountants you like. Not a problem for me. Its your business.

I also think the CKC design could be interesting. I have even subscribed to CKC. An Accountant spending money? Must be serious.

But I do not agree the manufacturers are complaining. Or intend to do so.

My experience is that the manufacturers generally recognise how difficult this job is to do and wonder how successful CKC will be with the design. The manufacturers know just how difficult it is to get this right. The comments from qdos and others in the game seem perfectly supportive to me.

Much of this will be down to Italo. Who I believe is relishing the challenge.

It will be very interesting to see the results.

In the meantime, getting back to the possible costs involved in creating a Kit car I think Russ Bost has made a number of very valid points. Interesting to see the knowledge both he and Stuart Mills demonstrate on kit car production. No doubt gained at some cost.

It is obvious from the comments of Russ, and from the original post from Stuart that this is a very difficult and involved technical process. Would be builders should understand the complexities and nuances of IVA before trying their hands. Or risk very expensive white elepghants.

We must remember that IVA will be required on any new Kit Car. I have built many many cars over the years but I would not pretend to be able to DESIGN a car from scratch that would be capable of passing IVA at a reasonable cost.

This is a seriously complicated business now. Great fun and I love it. I find the while process singularly rewarding and driving the completed car is the icing on the cake.

But a car design like this, that can actually be built and registered for road use.

That is one hell of a challenge.

[seansverige]

Stuart: if the 'Fred' post was in response to mine, can I just clarify that I wasn't questioning your costs per se, but suggesting it was like a menu (sort of): e.g. if you can make the buck yourself, it'll be less that the £10k you'd have to pay to someone else to do it - if only 'cos you're saving on their profit margin.

cymtriks said:

Cheap but nowhere near as focused as track day type kits, not replicas of anything exotic either.
...
The bottom line is that if you want a Seven, a replica of a sixties classic, a wild looking exoskeleton or a track day special only a kit car will give you what you are looking for

Remind me again: which one was the track day Dutton and the Exotic Dutton (I always get those two confused)?

(but seriously: genuinely confused that having disagreed, you apparently go on to agree that cheaper mass market stuff is the main issue... )

When did kitcar become synonym for trackday or replica? I wouldn't be so melodramatic as these are the kitcars last stand, but they are areas in which the mainstream is unlikely to be able compete, if only because there is no way an equivalent machine could hope to pass the far stricter mass market regs.

@Steve_D: agree that modern cars are ever harder to maintain at home, but absolutely disagree about today's yoof - what about modding or drift culture?

ETA: Stuart - mentioning Rochdale on t'other thread made me think: there's nothing on the list for glass. If bespoke 'screen required, isn't it about £5k for tooling? (assuming curvature within certain parameters, if not gets even more expensive)

Edited by seansverige on Saturday 3rd March 01:20

[cymtriks]

seansverige said:

cymtriks said:

Cheap but nowhere near as focused as track day type kits, not replicas of anything exotic either.
...
The bottom line is that if you want a Seven, a replica of a sixties classic, a wild looking exoskeleton or a track day special only a kit car will give you what you are looking for

Remind me again: which one was the track day Dutton and the Exotic Dutton (I always get those two confused)?

I'd lump the Pheaton in with the LSIS variations. I'm not certain what point you are trying to make here.

seansverige said:

(but seriously: genuinely confused that having disagreed, you apparently go on to agree that cheaper mass market stuff is the main issue... )

When did kitcar become synonym for trackday or replica? I wouldn't be so melodramatic as these are the kitcars last stand, but they are areas in which the mainstream is unlikely to be able compete, if only because there is no way an equivalent machine could hope to pass the far stricter mass market regs.

Twenty years ago:
Mass produced sports car equals old MGB.
Gap filled by kit cars.
Plus market for track day cars, replicas, LSIS, etc...

Today:
Mass produced sports car equals lots of choice
No everyday road car gap for kits to fill.
Grey area for enthusiasts who want a focused car for the road, mod a mass produced car or try to civilise or just live with a kit car's compromises.
Still a market for track day cars, replicas, LSIS, etc...

Its not contradictory. The mass market stuff has taken a chunk of the kit car market and created a grey area where the civilised car meets a more focused type but all the other niches are still there.

[qdos]

cymtriks said:

Twenty years ago:
Mass produced sports car equals old MGB.
Gap filled by kit cars.
Plus market for track day cars, replicas, LSIS, etc...

Today:
Mass produced sports car equals lots of choice
No everyday road car gap for kits to fill.
Grey area for enthusiasts who want a focused car for the road, mod a mass produced car or try to civilise or just live with a kit car's compromises.
Still a market for track day cars, replicas, LSIS, etc...

Its not contradictory. The mass market stuff has taken a chunk of the kit car market and created a grey area where the civilised car meets a more focused type but all the other niches are still there.

Twenty odd years ago there were no sports cars being produced and everything was going hot hatch GTI.. Spitfires, Midgets etc were dead and gone. Petrol heads got fed up and built their own sports cars.

Then along came the Elise, the MX5 and the MGF and now you can pick them up for a song.

Couple that with the dumbing down of education so that certificates were given out to anyone who could correctly spell their name at the top of a form and fill in a few multiple choice questions in order that the government could claim that they were giving the next generation an even better education by hitting amazing targets. We have a society now where IT means playing a game on the X box and a practical assessment means that teachers just get kids to keep handing in their 'assignments' over and over until the get the marks they want for what ever grade eventually thanks to the 'guiding hand' of the tutors.

Is it any wonder the Kit Car Industry has been in the doldrums never mind the fact we're in a recession.

We can't do much about the competition from the mass produced sports cars out there other than upping our game and bettering them with some of the superb kits that do exist these days. We have achieved that with more than just a few kits. In addition to this though, what we can do is re-engage the younger petrol heads by showing them what they could do themselves by putting together such cars as Project X by CKC. We need to inspire people to have a go and in my books you do that by action rather than words. It doesn't really matter what car gets built so long as it inspires. Personally I think the guys at CKC could well be just the team to do it. We need people who get on and do things and engage new customers, like Stuart for example at MEV who is prolific in creating no end of machines that grab people wanting to have go.

A kit should be fun, exciting and make people think "I want to have a go, I can do that!"

So X-Men, let's see what you can do and if you need a had at all I'm sure there's plenty of us here who would be more than happy to join in to assist. I'm looking forward not backward. If we all sit round counting pennies noting will get done.


Hmmmm I just realised this isn't really the right thread but I'm pretty confident that it's intended to run parallel with the CKC Project X topic, so I don't think it's too out of place.

Edited by qdos on Saturday 3rd March 11:55

[Stuart Mills]

Thanks for your contribution Qdos, I love the bit about educashun!
You mention Project X. I hope that name does not stick as it is a film that is in the cinemas now isn't it?
One very important factor I keep forgetting to mention is how cheap British manufacturing costs have become compared to many countries.
I read about MNR, SDR, Westfield, GBS etc selling very well overseas. I too bang 10 MEV kits in a 20 foot container on a regular basis. RTR won't mind me telling you that they are filling a 40ft container right now and have the next one part full in terms of orders to produce.
Steffan, your dream will come true in the next few years I feel. British manufacturing will again be growing and exports will keep us on top. Nice.
So in terms of investment in the industry, if the export market is captured then the business plan starts to stack up even if Fred the shed or Jack of all trades struggle to sell home grown products. It makes a better case for using the pro's.

[Frankthered]

cymtriks said:

Twenty years ago:
Mass produced sports car equals old MGB.
Gap filled by kit cars.
Plus market for track day cars, replicas, LSIS, etc...

Today:
Mass produced sports car equals lots of choice
No everyday road car gap for kits to fill.
Grey area for enthusiasts who want a focused car for the road, mod a mass produced car or try to civilise or just live with a kit car's compromises.
Still a market for track day cars, replicas, LSIS, etc...

Its not contradictory. The mass market stuff has taken a chunk of the kit car market and created a grey area where the civilised car meets a more focused type but all the other niches are still there.

Aren't we all saying the same thing here? 20 years ago affordable sports cars were a niche that wasn't being filled by the mainstream, so the kit car industry stepped up. Now there is a lot of choice from the mainstream, so any kits trying to compete struggle, especially when the full cost of the build is taken into account. So kit car designs are more extreme and, as you correctly state, are more focused sevens, exos or replicas.

The final nail in the coffin though, is that twenty years ago the choice was an old MGB or a very new MX5. If you did buy a 10 or 15 year old MGB, there was a reasonable chance of it being a shed that would potentially need significant repairs to the oily bits AND the bodywork. It would be similar with any performance car of that era.

Cars that would be in need of restoration? Or maybe convert your MGB into an NG, or a BRA 289.

Now, to me anyway, a 10 or 15 year old MX5 or Z3 wouldn't even seem like an old car - maybe that's just an age thing! Personally, though, if I were looking at a sports or performance car of the early 2000's, I'd expect it to last a while yet without too many big bills.

Having gone through a phase of reading Practical Classics, one thing I do recall is that the mechanicals of a car can be repaired or replaced, but bodywork was more often be terminal.

Is this why it's only now that the MX5 is 20+ years old that it's finally becoming a significant donor?

[seansverige]

We do seem be agreeing in an argumentative way.... one more go before I give up; you asked what's changed, I said mainstream niches and cheap sportscars. You then basically said none of my sportscar examples were focussed trackday weapons or replicas - which I never suggested they were: 'cos I was addressing the things that have changed. Anyway, didn't really sound like you were agreeing with me; you then went on to say "Competition from cheap mass produced stuff... is probably THE change", so we are in agreement then?

No dispute that the Phaeton in an LSIS (since before the acronym was invented ), but was it really a focussed track day kit? And I specifically said Dutton in order to hint at stuff like the Sierra (also a big seller, correct?). In addition there was a whole type of sporting rather sports car such as the Magenta or Firefly for those who wanted fun without having to drive around like their hair's on fire, as well as small coupés which whilst more performance oriented were more generally about celebrating the small, affordable sportscar in the vacuum that was the eighties. The point I was getting at is that these 'lost' niches and vehicle types constituted the majority of the kit market back in the day (or at least that's the impression I get; quite prepared to be corrected), or at very least a significant portion, including some major hits.

I think there is still a market for a small, spartan, sexy, cheap coupé not being catered for; the problem is that even with a tolerant (in terms of equipment & NVH) consumers, the development costs would be so high it'd be massively front loaded, and most likely end up proving the old 'small fortune' adage.

ETA: D'Oh! Beaten to the punch by Frankthered...

Frankthered said:

.... a 10 or 15 year old MGB, there was a reasonable chance of it being a shed ...Now, to me anyway, a 10 or 15 year old MX5 or Z3 wouldn't even seem like an old car

+1 big difference between the two at the same age

Edited by seansverige on Saturday 3rd March 12:58

[Russ Bost]

smash said:

I think Fred the Shed missed a step in the original list: Granting of charity status from the charities commission.

Wow - none of you make any money, plough more and more in, mass up more debt and still do it for, well, for us, the great British kit car buying public out of the goodness of your hearts (and never go tits up and knock loads of other struggling UK businesses). I'm welling up, truly I am. I know what companies I'll be looking up when I get into work Monday morning... (no offence Steffan but I don't necessarily trust accountants for professional reasons)

Kit cars have been in my family since the late 80's when I helped my brother build a Midas Gold. I've had them on and off over the years - always bought built though (after someone's done their brains on the initial depreciation). I've enjoyed every single one of them - and even enjoyed rebulding the engine on my cobra and retriming the P4 interior in ali. I've had great service from the manufacturers as well - even when one car was well into it's teens new gas rams were sent out before I'd paid for them! (AK cars gold merit award). Been to Stoneleigh and Detling many times and have always had great respect for manufacturers but these two CKC inspired threads are really letting me see things in a different light.

Far from CKC damaging the industry I think some of the manufacturers postings are in danger of doing that all by themselves - all this whingey-whiney, "We know best, you're cheating/espionage" "how dare you suggest we engineer our cars from the inside out" "we do do design" (yeah - a bonnet made by taking a rectangle and cutting two corners off *cough* mevx5 *cough* could only be an engineers approach and sure as hell not a designer/stylists) and then frankly some outright BS that's on this thread...true colours on display.

Someone said about a potential lost sale on the other thread well I can tell you there are now definite manufacturers I'd swerve based on attitude displayed here on PH.

I was totally behind the CKC project anyway but now after all the whinging I find myself desperately hoping they open a massive can of:



on your manufacturing sorry behinds - really pull a blinding little design that makes everyone go "Wow, you can make that with a kit?!" At which point you'll all copy it (for charity of course) now you've brow beaten CKC into crushing it post creation.

Wow, who got themselves a whole whacking big cup of vitriol & drank it down to the last drop!!!

Where on earth is this coming from, were you abused by a kitcar manufacturer as a child or something?

I can't even work out exactly who you're having a go at & quite how this thread has somehow now become entangled with the CKC thread I have no idea.

Stuart asked a perfectly reasonable question about how much it costs to develop & market a car & suddenly apparently every kitcar manufacturer is a theiving scumbag who's only setting up a business so it can go tits up & he can rip off all his customers & suppliers - I can think of one instance in recent years that something along those lines has happened, but the manufacturer I'm thinking of hasn't come up in either of these 2 threads TTBOMK.

I'm sure much of the information Stuart has layed out for you would come as news & a complete surprise to many kitcar owners/buyers & I would have thought people would have found the thread interesting.

Who has said anything on this thread about CKC damaging the industry? I know there are a few manufacturers having a moan on the CKC car design thread saying it's a bad idea, something I totally disagree with, I wholeheartedly support CKC in their endevours to bring kitcars to a wider audience, but nothing has been said on this thread to that effect.

I don't think there is any relevance regarding what it costs a kitcar manufacturer to setup & manufacture a new kit compared with what CKC are doing, which they have made quite clear is a one - off project that won't be going into production, if they are doing most stuff "in house" it's going to be costing them time rather than money, something which I know for a fact all the CKC staff invest bundles of already.

During the last 10 years I can think of about 5 or 6 manufacturers that have actually produced something new & interesting within the kitcar market & at least 3 of those have posted on here, all the rest keep on producing the same old thing, occasionaly adding a very slight new twist to a dreadfully jaded old product.

I truly wish it were not the case, but the kitcar market has already contracted massively in the last couple of years & will continue to do so unless we as manufacturers come up with some genuinely new & exciting products, the kitcar market will look very different in another 5 years I think you'll find