The Project Singlecoil & Me Have Been Working On.........T

[seansverige]

Good stuff.

The radiator is at the front between the intake and scoops, correct? If so, even with an intercooler is that area of intake necessary? If yes, then surely that's potentially going to cause drag / rear end lift issues: why not some sort of exit vent? This would also reduce the visual mass of the hump, which dominates a bit as is. Changing the intake shape to something like a pill shape might help - the current trapezoid looks squat, maybe even go as far as splitting into two distinct openings, pure styling I know. Some form in the sides below the intake might also help (think much wider version of mid-70's F1) but I realise this might have a cost implication in terms of tooling, and would be tricky to resolve neatly with regard to the integrated roll hoop.

Also think a single fairing might work better than current double bubble - maybe align it in to the exit vents in the bonnet as part of a larger feature? Are the sides all GRP - the second body only view hinted it might not: if the lower sides are metal sheet this will break things up visually and with the form at the back of the front wheel arch might be enough to relieve slab sided feel in the flesh.

As regards product differentiation, from what you have said so far attention to detail in terms of cost and ease of build, and ergonomics are clearly considerations (rightly so), but these are less tangible than other factors and really need to be emphasised when you presenting the car.

Looking forward to future updates. Any chance of a rear 3/4 view?

[singlecoil]

seansverige said:

The radiator is at the front between the intake and scoops, correct? If so, even with an intercooler is that area of intake necessary? If yes, then surely that's potentially going to cause drag / rear end lift issues: why not some sort of exit vent?

The size and shape of the air intake are a compromise between providing effective rollover protection which requires as high and wide a hoop as possible, and the visual effect which requires a much smaller intake. The problem could be sidestepped by having a smaller intake and a seperate ROP hoop, but when DD suggested integrating the two I was happy to go along with it. But I certainly agree that it is a problem.

The air exit will be provided by the back panel which will be constructed of mesh.

seansverige said:

Also think a single fairing might work better than current double bubble

I'm inclined to agree, and I believe some experiments with that are on DD's agenda

seansverige said:

Are the sides all GRP - the second body only view hinted it might not: if the lower sides are metal sheet this will break things up visually and with the form at the back of the front wheel arch might be enough to relieve slab sided feel in the flesh.

That decision hasn't be made yet. Aluminium panels, to be formed by the builder, would certainly be less exensive, but there would be the problem of forming the panel around the curve into the front arch AND the foldover underneath and above.

I quite like the aluminium idea, and would give it that track car look which I think owners might like. On the other hand, GRP would be easier for the builder to fit.

seansverige said:

Looking forward to future updates. Any chance of a rear 3/4 view?

That will be up to the designer, I know there is work to be done in that area, so that may be why he hasn't shown anything yet. It does have a back panel as the moment, which I have seen and think looks good, but it may need to be bigger once the number plate, lights and exhaust have been provided for in order to allow enough air exit through the grille.

[pilbeam_mp62]

TheDetailDoctor said:

All CONSTRUCTIVE comment welcome.

Edited by TheDetailDoctor on Wednesday 10th March 15:44

Sorry - but I don't have any CONSTRUCTIVE comment.
ETA - reason being that there is not enough to comment on yet...

Best of luck with it though, to you and singlecoil,

Regards

Edited by pilbeam_mp62 on Thursday 11th March 13:21

[TheDetailDoctor]

Here's a couple more ISO veiws. At least you can get an iead where we are heading with the rear end from here. The diffuser is a little crued at the moment & will be more elegant. The rear panel will be perforated sheet, similar to that use on the rear of an F360 to allow plenty of exit area.

There's going to have to be a small splitter up front too as currently there is an area of hig pressure at the front as a result of the air spilling under the nose.

[Vindi_andy]

I like it!

I agreed with the other comments on here about it being rather flat along the sides of the chassis. Whilst I appreciate that the chassis has side impact prtoection there could be some more shaping to the red portion of the latest images. Just my humble opinion, what do I know about styling I drive a Vindicator Sprint Family lol

If this becomes avaiable with a removable hard top, or even just some weather gear it might push the murtaya off the top spot in my "next car project to be started in 2015" list

[singlecoil]

Vindi_andy said:

If this becomes avaiable with a removable hard top, or even just some weather gear it might push the murtaya off the top spot in my "next car project to be started in 2015" list

The design has been carried out with the probabilty of producing a version with a Grp C windscreen (we have a source) and a closed cockpit. It would have been nice to have been able to start with the closed version but the mouldings and construction are obviously a good deal more complicated and would slow the project down a lot, as well as add to the cost. All being well, though, we will hopefully have something ready that will fit your timescale.

[66Quinny66]

You asked about other cars similar to the Spire: There is the MNR LMP which comes in both BEC and CEC chassis versions, has side impact protection, accomodates drivers up to about 6' 6" and costs roughly the same as the Vortx. I don't know how many have been sold but I guess you are aware of the Vortx and MNR's reputation and pedigree and obviously you will be up against the MNR brand, reputation and established customer base.

[singlecoil]

66Quinny66 said:

You asked about other cars similar to the Spire: There is the MNR LMP which comes in both BEC and CEC chassis versions, has side impact protection, accomodates drivers up to about 6' 6" and costs roughly the same as the Vortx. I don't know how many have been sold but I guess you are aware of the Vortx and MNR's reputation and pedigree and obviously you will be up against the MNR brand, reputation and established customer base.

Thanks for that. I had a look at it on the MNR website. Only one pic, and that's of a track only version. Google image search didn't turn up anything. The picture showed quite an attractive car though, I would be first to admit. The pricing details are not complete but from what is shown I think we can probably get a little bit inside that.

Anyone who fancies a look can find it here-
http://www.mnrltd.co.uk/p_cars_lmp.htm

[66Quinny66]

As I said, I don't know how many have been sold and this may actually be none but personally, and speaking from a customer's perspective, you would have to be quite a bit inside those sorts of prices to tempt people as your quality and customer service are, as yet, unproven. Rightly or wrongly, I would assume that the MNR product will be at least of comparable quality to the Vortx and they do have a good reputation for customer service.

ETA - There is also the road version of the Mission T5 to have a look at.

Edited by 66Quinny66 on Friday 12th March 21:11

[singlecoil]

66Quinny66 said:

As I said, I don't know how many have been sold and this may actually be none but personally, and speaking from a customer's perspective, you would have to be quite a bit inside those sorts of prices to tempt people as your quality and customer service are, as yet, unproven. Rightly or wrongly, I would assume that the MNR product will be at least of comparable quality to the Vortx and they do have a good reputation for customer service.

Well, I guess we'll have to compete on looks alone, then. We are quietly confident on that score.

66Quinny66 said:

ETA - There is also the road version of the Mission T5 to have a look at.

I had a look at their website, is that car being actively marketed? The last news and stuff was dated 2005. I haven't noticed them at any kit car shows recently.

Edited by singlecoil on Friday 12th March 22:02

[SuperT]

Vindi_andy said:

If this becomes avaiable with a removable hard top, or even just some weather gear it might push the murtaya off the top spot in my "next car project to be started in 2015" list

Quite frankly anyone who could have considered the Murtaya from square one needed their head examining, a far better TVR being affordable for far less & not requiring building! As for anyone considering one now with the present uncertain state of affairs .............................????????

Singlecoil, if you're seriously considering matching the MNR spec for less money you will never recover your initial investment unless it starts selling like hot cakes! Sorry if you think that's unhelpful, but you asked for constructive critiscism, & bringing a (fairly complex) kitcar such as this to market is never going to be cheap - just a for instance what are those headlamps - projectors? That's going to be about £350 for a kickoff! I would assume (only guessing) that a fair few bits of the MNR are generic to their other models, but even if not they already have the premises, workforce & marketing operation in place with their existing operation. Also the Spire isn't exactly expensive & is a race winning car & I don't exactly see dozens of those around!

[jeffw]

Singlecoil and I have already had the discussion around the rollhoop and intake. I don't think the rollhoop/bar is large enough and I think the air intake is too large. I don't see how the two combine well at all, it is to much of a compromise for both components.

I do like the basic shape however and look forward to seeing it in the flesh.

[anonymous-user]

Personally I would like it more if it had a roof like an Ultima GTR, mainly because of our weather in the UK gives limited oppurtunities to drive fully open cars, but also because it would be good to be able to build something GTRish but at a lower budget.

Would be nice to see an option to use the Subaru flat 4 and box, as per the Saker GT which use a Subaru box 4wd converted to 2wd mode.

I do like the choice of the VW/Audi drivetrain as there are many donors for that part in scrapyards, hey i guess you could even use a TDI motor.

[66Quinny66]

singlecoil said:

66Quinny66 said:

ETA - There is also the road version of the Mission T5 to have a look at.

I had a look at their website, is that car being actively marketed? The last news and stuff was dated 2005. I haven't noticed them at any kit car shows recently.

Edited by singlecoil on Friday 12th March 22:02

I honestly don't know but all I would say is that, in my line of business, I have to know quite a lot about my competition, both current and future.

I am not saying these things to p*ss on anyone's chips and, if you take a step back for a moment, I think that you need to ask yourself a few questions:

Have you spotted a gap in the market that you think you can fill or is it a car that you would like but see this a way of recovering some of the costs associated with producing your own dream?

People have said "yes, it's nice" or "sorry, don't like it". I would guess that most of the respondents already have at least one kit in their garage and may not be interested in another. Will people buy this kit and in what sort of quantities?

Why is the LSIS so popular (I only use this example as; 1) it is, and 2) you compare price with the Indy)? I can answer this from my perspective if you like?...
Budget and appearance were secondary considerations. I decided on a 7 mainly due to the fact that, other than the chassis, there were no real "big bits" to store during the build. It could be built in a single garage. Individual, relatively inexpensive, body panels can be replaced in case of mishap. It takes up a relatively small amount of room once complete.
After this decision was reached, I then looked at manufacturers and their products. My car is not the prettiest example of a kit car, it is not even close to "best-in-breed" amongst the 7s, appearance wise, but I bought it and I have spent quite a significant amount of money on it. Am I unusual as far as "customers" go?

I neither expect, or want, you to answer any of these questions on here, but please do challenge yourself with questions including the above.

[Sam_68]

jeffw said:

Singlecoil and I have already had the discussion around the rollhoop and intake. I don't think the rollhoop/bar is large enough and I think the air intake is too large. I don't see how the two combine well at all, it is to much of a compromise for both components.

The roll hoop is certainly too small to be MSA compliant, hence would be a limitation if you ever wanted to take the car racing. On the other hand, I don't think the intake looks over-large in DD's last isometric views above. I guess we'll have to see it in the flesh?

Would it be possible to partially disguise the height/size of the intake by creating a 'false coupe' cockpit fairing bubble, a bit like the Renault Alpine A442 (but not as extreme)?

This thread is starting to make me look like some sort of Renault fetishist, isn't it?

[rhinochopig]

The big issue I would have with buying that, as a road car, is the front rear overhangs. Whilst a big advantage on a track only car, on a road car it would be a liability in handling, road positioning, and damage terms. I suspect it would make a good track only car though.

If you look at any of the road legal mini Le Mans style cars, their overhangs are tiny. I think the design needs focussing on one area or the other. At the moment it seems to be too track focussed.

It is great to see another project though, I wish you all the best of luck.

ETA Is the design driven by CFD or is it a styling exercise / best guess currently?

Edited by rhinochopig on Saturday 13th March 10:52

[Furyblade_Lee]

Looking good. Have you seen the new similar car from Andy Bates at AB Perormance? I was given a sneak audience with it last September, not sure if he has gone totally public with it yey??? That car is going to be an absolute stonker, he knows his stuff.

Your car reminds me a bit of the Westfield XTR4 in concept, a mate gave their Audi Turbo XTR4 a spanking round a racetrack in Belgium. Good luck with it.

[singlecoil]

SuperT said:

Singlecoil, if you're seriously considering matching the MNR spec for less money you will never recover your initial investment unless it starts selling like hot cakes! Sorry if you think that's unhelpful, but you asked for constructive critiscism, & bringing a (fairly complex) kitcar such as this to market is never going to be cheap - just a for instance what are those headlamps - projectors? That's going to be about £350 for a kickoff! I would assume (only guessing) that a fair few bits of the MNR are generic to their other models, but even if not they already have the premises, workforce & marketing operation in place with their existing operation. Also the Spire isn't exactly expensive & is a race winning car & I don't exactly see dozens of those around!

Actually it was the Detail Doctor who asked for constructive criticism, I don’t mind the other kind, in fact I am used to it . The headlights are going to be changed to the sort that go under a flush transparent cover.



I think the main point of your post deals with the economics of entering a market against existing well established competitors. On the face of it that’s quite a hurdle to jump.

One thing in my favour is that kit car builders are by nature individualists, and just because another car would appear to be the more sensible choice doesn’t mean that our’s won’t get carefully considered. And all I will need is for them to take a good look and I believe I will have a good chance of making the sale if there is one there to be made.

I’m not planning to make the chassis and bodies myself. Once the initial prototyping has been done the manufacture of those and other items such as uprights and wishbones will be sub-contracted to specialists. My production costs won’t, therefore, be noticeably higher that my competitors. My workshop will concentrate on sales, service and full builds for those that require them.

There will be the initial costs, though. Main one will be the making of the pattern and moulds. A large part of that will be the labour, and in effect I, and hopefully my business partner, will be providing that free of charge. There will be an opportunity cost, but there you go, if something is worth having then it has to be paid for. If it all works out then the cost will be recovered eventually, and there’s always the possibility of selling the project on should we wish to. If it is even moderately successful then the project itself will be worth several tens of thousands of pounds.



One of the attractions of the kit car market is the very low cost of marketing. Magazine reviews are free apart from expenses, magazine advertising in KCM is of the order of £100 for a quarter page, in colour, and I was almost gob-smacked when I found out how cheap stands at major kit car shows are (although, of course, there are expenses to consider).

[singlecoil]

66Quinny66 said:

I am not saying these things to p*ss on anyone's chips and, if you take a step back for a moment, I think that you need to ask yourself a few questions:

Have you spotted a gap in the market that you think you can fill or is it a car that you would like but see this a way of recovering some of the costs associated with producing your own dream?

People have said "yes, it's nice" or "sorry, don't like it". I would guess that most of the respondents already have at least one kit in their garage and may not be interested in another. Will people buy this kit and in what sort of quantities?

Why is the LSIS so popular (I only use this example as; 1) it is, and 2) you compare price with the Indy)? I can answer this from my perspective if you like?...
Budget and appearance were secondary considerations. I decided on a 7 mainly due to the fact that, other than the chassis, there were no real "big bits" to store during the build. It could be built in a single garage. Individual, relatively inexpensive, body panels can be replaced in case of mishap. It takes up a relatively small amount of room once complete.
After this decision was reached, I then looked at manufacturers and their products. My car is not the prettiest example of a kit car, it is not even close to "best-in-breed" amongst the 7s, appearance wise, but I bought it and I have spent quite a significant amount of money on it. Am I unusual as far as "customers" go?

I neither expect, or want, you to answer any of these questions on here, but please do challenge yourself with questions including the above.

I think that it is right that I should be asked these challenging questions, and although you have said that you doesn’t require answers, I need to put something here as this thread has been linked to in another thread in the business section.

Although I would, of course, hope to attract interest from people who have already built a kit, I would expect most sales to come from first-timers. I have done some research into the sales that various kit car firms achieve, and am happy that the market is big enough to provide a living for a small firm (2 partners, and whatever employees are required, if any).

The points you make about the popularity of the LSIS are good ones, and I freely admit I hadn’t considered the parts storage aspect. I think that could be overcome, if necessary by the customer not taking delivery of the body until they are ready. Cobras are supplied in one piece, and Pilgrim still manage to sell a fair few, so the problem can be dealt with if the customer is motivated to do so.

The car will inevitably be longer than an LSIS but not really any wider, though the convenient working space between the front and rear wheels will be lost.

I’m well aware that the LSIS is extremely popular, in my business 90% of the cars I see are of that type. When deciding to embark on manufacturing I considered making an LSIS very carefully indeed. But it’s all the old problems which start, of course, with the choice of donor. The prospective manufacture has to decide at the outset which to go with. Sierra? BMW? A sportscar such as the MX5? The Sierra is getting seriously old now, the engine is pretty much going to have to be changed to get decent performance, BMWs don’t have an obviously suitable engine, and all of them are big and canted over, and the MX5 engines are nice but small.

Another minus point to the LSIS is the sheer popularity, go to a kit car meeting and they are everywhere. That’s not a value judgement, just an observation. Some people want to be a bit different, and that’s the market I want to supply.

There are also some savings for the customer. The donor car will provide a suitable engine and gearbox. The 1.8t engine has a big following, and is easily capable of 250bhp with some inexpensive changes. Spend a bit more and much more power is available. A brand new 6 speed box with good ratios can be had for less than £1,000. The car is designed to accommodate an S4 or RS4 engine should anyone have access to one.

So all in all I believe this car will get some customers, though it remains to be seen how many, I realise.

[singlecoil]

rhinochopig said:

The big issue I would have with buying that, as a road car, is the front rear overhangs. Whilst a big advantage on a track only car, on a road car it would be a liability in handling, road positioning, and damage terms. I suspect it would make a good track only car though.

If you look at any of the road legal mini Le Mans style cars, their overhangs are tiny. I think the design needs focussing on one area or the other. At the moment it seems to be too track focussed.

It is great to see another project though, I wish you all the best of luck.

ETA Is the design driven by CFD or is it a styling exercise / best guess currently?

That's a very good point which I will leave to the Detail Doctor to answer, but will say that the rear will, in road guise, be minus the diffuser. On the road I expect the car to run a little higher than is shown in the drawings, too.