Detling - seasons opener

[DEN TANNER]

AdiT said:

Well just telling it how I saw it. Afterall I was there at both so can judge it on what I saw.

And did you see 8 manufacturers stands or did you see trice that number?

You’re obviously viewing through tinted spectacles….

Better go to SpecSavers….

By the way…. Stafford also suffered bad weather in 3 out of the 4 years I ran it. Though the forecasts were always worse than the actual weather.

[rdodger]

26 manufacturers of what? there certianly weren't 26 kit manufacturers at Stafford.

It was truely terrible! I wsn't the only one that thought that judging by the number of angry people I bumped into.

[DEN TANNER]

rdodger said:

26 manufacturers of what? there certianly weren't 26 kit manufacturers at Stafford.

It was truely terrible! I wsn't the only one that thought that judging by the number of angry people I bumped into.

There were 26 manufacturers. These are the ones I can recall...

ASM Cub (Re-launched Mini Moke)
Auto Speciali (Veleno, AS427, Viper, etc)
Blitzworld
DB Replicas (DAX 427)
Deauville
DNA
GBSC (Robin Hood)
GTO Replica (Roy Kelly)
Imperial (Wedding Cars)
Marcos Heritage (Mini Marcos)
MEV
MNR Vort-X
MR2 Kits
Murtaya
Pilgrim
Real Life Toys (Toylander)
Regent
Royale
RTR
Scamp
Sylva (Chester Sports Cars)
Tiger
Vindicator
Z-Cars (mad Mini conversions)

There were more manufacturers…..
And there were lots of traders too….

And every single one of them made sales at Stafford.

It may surprise you to know that I spoke to quite a few people at that show too. None – not one – either asked for their money back: nor sought to pass judgement. There on the day, they could see the washed-out club field. They could see the weather had either sent kit cars away early or put them off arriving in the first place.

As to the inside, nobody was stupid enough to say it was ‘empty’ when there. Only when they get home and start tapping their keyboards do they convert “massive hall with a few spaces” to “nothing to see in a tiny hall” or it was “completely empty”.

Whatever was being said at Stafford was being said at Detling too. Except at Detling you would have had to work harder at finding other people to moan with.

Edited by DEN TANNER on Friday 13th April 21:26

[rdodger]

You didn't speak to the people at the entrance who were shouting at the staff on the door demanding their money back?

[Steffan]

I think we all agree that the more Kit Car shows there are the better for every Kit Car enthusiast.

I understand that the economic downturn and consequences and significant costs, of IVA requirements have dampened the Kit Car market.

I hope the various Kit Car business owners including Den Tanner find a way to keep these shows going. We would all be poorer without them. But it cannot be easy and I do understand the need to break even. Not easy in today's straightened circumstances! Not easy at all!

[KDIcarmad]

I attended on the Saturday. Yes the weather was no enjoyable, the new hall was not as good as the Kent pavilion, needs windows. I feel last year the show was better. More cars in the club areas, I put that down to the weather, as to lack of manufacturers!

Hope they do a better job next year. Use the pavilion again and get more manufacturers. Pray for better weather. As to paying £10 pound, to me that seems fair.

I paid £15 to get into the Bromley pageant of motoring a few years back. A large classic car event. A quick note even the classic car attending pay full price to enter.

[Sam_68]

Steffan said:

I think we all agree that the more Kit Car shows there are the better for every Kit Car enthusiast.

No we don't.

See my post above: I'd rather have quality than quantity.

One big show attended by every major manufacturer and supplier is better than a dozen shows attended by a handful of manufacturers and a few dedicated club anoraks, IMO.

[DEN TANNER]

rdodger said:

You didn't speak to the people at the entrance who were shouting at the staff on the door demanding their money back?

No I didn't. As I said, I spoke to an awful lot of people. I wasn't exactly hiding was I? Those I spoke to were very sympathetic and understanding.
My wife and daughter were on the door all weekend and neither reported raised voices let alone shouting.
Only on the forums have I read the kind of stuff you've just written. Easy isn't it? Have a conversation in the car park with some git with a chip on his shoulder, write an exaggerated report of it, transpose its location to the door, report the one conversation with that one person as one that everybody was engaged in. Easy isn't it? But who benefits?
Yes, the show was washed out by bad weather. Yes, it was 'hit' by about 8 traders who didn't turn up (having seen the weather forcast) on the day. And it was 'hit' too by industry politics which resulted in a group of manufacturers boycotting the event from the start. And it was 'hit' by the ever deepening recession which from the point of view of grass-roots kit makers got worse through 2010 and 2011.
By any logical analysis, it was still a better event than Detling. As to those purported fictional characters shouting for their money back.... I've this to say.... 26 manufacturers, a similar quantity of traders, facilities for clubs and camping, clean toilets, hot showers for those who want one inside, cold showers for those who prefer to stay outside, 250 club cars and members to look at/ speak to, free car parking, reasonable food stalls, Den Tanner to speak to /abuse/ shout at...... all for a poxy tenner.

Last word to Russ

Russ Bost said:

..... to gripe about a £10 entry fee!!!! What would you want the entry fee to be, £10 buys absolutely sweet FA nowadays....

[smash]

Admirable defence and all that but hasn't Stafford been shelved this year - presumably because it wasn't actually a success (what was that about rose tinted specs?)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Iwantoneofthose]

I'm off to to the Donington show this year. I'm hoping there it will be a new and exciting venue, and maybe we'll see some racing on track at the same time. There's always the museum there too, if I get the time.

My local show was Harrogate which is now defunct. I think Donny or Newark are the nearest to us now (York).
I would have thought the scene could do with a Northern show though.

[DEN TANNER]

smash said:

Admirable defence and all that but hasn't Stafford been shelved this year - presumably because it wasn't actually a success (what was that about rose tinted specs?)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Yes, it has been shelved....
No, it wasn't profitable....

But, it was better in all respects than the show we're discussing here. One doesn't need specs to count the difference in the number of exhibitors, kit cars or public in attendence.

Ironically, Detling's hall was literally 'empty' inasmuch as no attempt was made to fill it. Instead the new, much smaller, hall was 'filled' instead. Appears nobody picked up on that point.

Neither has anybody pointed to the fact that Roger has done with the show what he does for every kit car show he's ever run - absolutely nothing (except make it smaller and cheaper)! He'll be doing the same again next month too! Mark my words.

[DEN TANNER]

rdodger said:

You didn't speak to the people at the entrance who were shouting at the staff on the door demanding their money back?

Tell you what Mr Dodgy,
I've just reviewed your posts in your Stafford thread from last September.
You advised it was a waste of time, you complained of your costs, you estimated the number of owners cars at 80 (when in fact there were 100+ Robin Hoods alone).

But you didn't mention these folk demanding refunds at that time (when it would have been fresh in your memory). Why was that? Can the answer be found in the word Jackanory?

[greengreenwood7]

well that was all nicely on topic wasn't it!

[Toltec]

greengreenwood7 said:

well that was all nicely on topic wasn't it!

[ColinM50]

Greenwood and toltec seem to have indirectly hit the nail on head and identified some sort of "war" going on. Whenever Den puts a post or reply on PH there's a cadre of posters who can't seem to resist having a dig at him. Why's that? I've only been involved in the kit car industry, as an owner, for 3 years but there does seem to be some sort of "we all hate Den" campaign going. What's it all about?

Is it that he used to own Pilgrim sold it (or did it go pop?) and now owns it again that makes him unpopular with some? Or that he owns one of the industry's mags? Is it simply the green eyed monster rearing it's head? I don't know the answer, I've no knowledge or deep experience of the man apart from two or three chats with him on his stand at various shows and I found him a nice OK chap, someone I'd happily have a pint with. The only negative comment I would make about him is that the photo of himself that he uses in the mag must have been taken quite a few years ago, 'cos he's years and years older than that in real life (tee hee, joke)

Looking at this thread, the original topic's now been ruined by the fight twixt Den and his knockers (ooer missus). So can we have a "Den's a tt thread" where all his haters can get together and have a pop at him and he can reply BUT leave all the other threads as a "knocking Den" free zone?

[KDIcarmad]

DEN TANNER said:

Neither has anybody pointed to the fact that Roger has done with the show what he does for every kit car show he's ever run - absolutely nothing (except make it smaller and cheaper)! He'll be doing the same again next month too! Mark my words.

Do you think you could do better?

Half the problem was the weather, can you control that. I agree this show had big problems. The new hall is just a big shed, next year use the old one. It has felt more welcoming in past years. The lack of club cars I put down to weather and not paying, therefor not committing to the show. I would get round this by asking them to book a place and getting a meat if they do for both days.

Looking wide the real problem for all Kit Car Shows location! Most are held in the middle of nowhere. Compare this to the UK's and World's largest one day classic car show, the Bromley Pageant Motoring held at Norman park. This is just a few minutes by bus from South Bromley station (at the southern end of the high street). The last time I went ticket on the day were £15 (12.5 advanced). Interestingly you also paid the same if you were in a classic car, all prebooked. With over 3000 cars and other items of interest this is a massive show, that is well attended. Not just by Classic car nuts but others just looking for a good day out. Normally a few kit cars slip in, I remember a very rare Concept Centaurs in need of a rebuild and a lot of Sevens from my last visit.

[seansverige]

Sam_68 said:

The product has to meet the consumer's requirements, not the other way around.

You can't put the responsibility on the consumer to make your product work for you... you've got to offer them something they want to buy.

+1 I know Russ was trying to be positive, but that kind of logic is up there with those who blame Clarkson for Rover's demise.

Never been to Detling (& for various reasons, including geography, never likely to) but FWIW....

Why was it staged on a bank holiday weekend? Why reduce the potential attendance by going up against other much larger events in related or other spheres on such weekends? Especially Easter, when many people are away somewhere anyway, and especially when event doesn't even span said weekend?

This is not just aimed at Detling. Couple of years ago, did Stoneleigh for the first time in over a decade, on a Monday: it was winding down when I got there (mid morning) and largely empty (esp. OC areas) when I left, mid-afternoon. Was subsequently told Sunday was the big day - which I couldn't make because I was at something else. If it's now a two (in reality less) day event why, other than inertia, is it on a Bank Holiday weekend??

Staying with Stoneleigh, but seems to be echoed at Detling, it's not so much that the provisions were so expensive (hardly a surprise) but don't recall Goodwood catering (for example) being significantly much more, but was much more palatable (and CKC had decent stand fairly near to one of the entrances).

'Live' component seems to be increasingly popular: why not some kind of event or track component to add interest / value? Of course this may dictate venue but it seems especially obvious given that the consensus seems to be that trackday / weekend weapons are the industry's current demographic, but is it actually part of any current show? (not being rhetorical, genuinely don't know)

Could something be taken from moving motorshow at Goodwood (other than knocking punters over... )? Why not integrate / expand upon something like MEV open days? e.g. mfrs sign up for time slots over weekend to give free short passenger demo runs? (If it's demo run might not necessarily conflict with paid for tyre smoking slalom elsewhere.) As it's usually one of the cheaper parts of the overall trip, ticket costs not personally an issue per se but including that as might help: as with the other live shows, some kind of booking - either on the day or in advance increases perception that you're getting something 'extra'.

(Just make sure expectations appropriately set, lest it backfire: in previous years, at the Hot Rod Hayride you could just turn up to the dirt oval and as long as your ride was pre '67, were wearing helmet & jacket, you were good to go. Last year it was a drag event at Dunsfold, for which you had to pre-register by 11pm the night before; this information was in the event guide.... buried in the middle of some body text. Cue significant proportion (between third & half by all accounts) of disgruntled hotrodders next day being turned back 'cos their names weren't on the list...)

Which neatly segways on to: underpromise and over deliver - not the other way around: winning back a disgruntled customer is waaay harder than winning new customer, which in turn is harder than keeping your existing customers happy. Making specific promises about exhibitors which you fail to keep (for whatever reason) is only going to make bad feeling worse.

Isn't MEV / RTR launching two models at Stoneleigh? As long at remains biggest event on calendar, mfrs will always want to launch there so why not offer reduced / waived exhibition costs in exchange for exclusive / premiere - even if doesn't massively increase attendance, at least ensures some press coverage and over time might build a reputation as a significant show.

As others have observed, given the unbalanced calendar why go early and just ahead of the biggest event on the calendar? Maybe some shows should consider partnership with other events. Is there a primary event on the 750MC calendar? I do think there's some overlap between the kit & classic car enthusiast; can't recall any kitcar presence at Silverstone Classic - (isn't it one of the biggest classic events in Europe?...)

Finally, got to second Sam_68's comments again: ultimately there seem to be too many events (was it ever thus? Historically, only really aware of Stoneleigh) fighting over a dwindling audience, peddling largely the same tired format, p*ssing & moaning about punters negativity 'cos that's easier than trying to analyse and address the issue: the fact that this debate is going on proves the demand is there, but also that it isn't being properly met and progressively losing goodwill - as seems to be the case - makes changing this ever harder.

[DEN TANNER]

KDIcarmad said:

Do you think you could do better?

Difficult to see how anybody could have done worse.

The list published before the show revealed that it wasn't going to be viable (whatever the weather).

And nothing was done to attract either trade or public. Not even that which was indicated in advertising.

He put nothing in and got the same out.

Even regarding Stoneleigh, all he puts in is what the manufacturers / traders give him. The Westfield drifting is their contribution. The 4x4 rides are provided by a kit maker. The club fields are entirely financed by the clubs. The guide is published at the expense of whatever magazine is daft enough to print it (has been mine in years past)

He puts in absolutely nothing yet the sun is purported to shine from his nether regions because he apparently does such a fantastic job.

And he'll continue to do so as it declines further..... and further..... to its logical conclusion.

[Furyblade_Lee]

As a side to picking on Den personally, I don't think this is the case here on PH! I am aware you had a spat with someone in the past from another mag, but I don't care. I welcome people on here who are involved in the industry, more the better. And knowing Rdoger and AdiT as personal friends of many years, I'd just like to clarify they hold no personal grudges either, any comments are not in any way aimed in regard of a grudge. Just wanted to clarify that as this could spoil a good debate.

[KDIcarmad]

DEN TANNER said:

KDIcarmad said:

Do you think you could do better?

Difficult to see how anybody could have done worse.

The list published before the show revealed that it wasn't going to be viable (whatever the weather).

And nothing was done to attract either trade or public. Not even that which was indicated in advertising.

He put nothing in and got the same out.

Even regarding Stoneleigh, all he puts in is what the manufacturers / traders give him. The Westfield drifting is their contribution. The 4x4 rides are provided by a kit maker. The club fields are entirely financed by the clubs. The guide is published at the expense of whatever magazine is daft enough to print it (has been mine in years past)

He puts in absolutely nothing yet the sun is purported to shine from his nether regions because he apparently does such a fantastic job.

And he'll continue to do so as it declines further..... and further..... to its logical conclusion.

Prove it! Tell us what you would do.