The Project Singlecoil & Me Have Been Working On.........T

[Furyblade_Lee]

Please don't take offence at anybodys opinions. You chose to stick your head above the parapit and ask ask for them. There are enough builders / owners on here of every type to give you some good feedback. Ignore the blatant knockers (if there are any??) but from what I can summise is you are bringing to market a car which looks to the eye like a prototype racer but with the intention of being a road car? I guess your target audience is someone with enough disposable income to afford £15-30k on a toy, a very fast toy to be enjoyed on the road wearing a crash helmet and wetsuit, with reasonable driving talent to be able to use it to it's fullest. To be prepared to travel light with minimal luggage in all weathers and not mind the attention it recieves. Well, mostly that sounds like me. But I would also want that to perform on track even more importantly than the road. Unless I bought it just to pose in, which I most certainly do not. To not even have researched compettitors similar vehicles and try to discover how many units they have sold seems financial suicide to me. I do not know exactly how many cars of this ilk have sold, but I guess it is not many. Give Tom at T5 Mission a call.... I genuinly wish you success with thus project, I wish I was clever enough to build and market my own car. But in the current guise to be offered as a road car "pissing in the wind" springs to mind.

[singlecoil]

Furyblade_Lee said:

Please don't take offence at anybodys opinions. You chose to stick your head above the parapit and ask ask for them.

I haven't taken offence, and I didn't mean to suggest that I have. Strictly speaking, though, it's not my thread but the Detail Doctor's, it was he who chose to ask for opinions

Furyblade_Lee said:

But I would also want that to perform on track even more importantly than the road.

There's some confusion here, for which I apologise. I'm quite sure the car will perform very well at trackdays. But that's different from racing, isn't it. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm saying that the car will do well on the track, especially as the aerodynamics will be very good and the engine range so tunable. But it will not do well in actual RACING because it is not designed for that from the outset, unlike a good many of the cars that have been referred to above. The design, by the time it is ready, will be optimised for road use. There will in fact be a decent amount of storage room too.

Furyblade_Lee said:

To not even have researched compettitors similar vehicles and try to discover how many units they have sold seems financial suicide to me. I do not know exactly how many cars of this ilk have sold, but I guess it is not many. Give Tom at T5 Mission a call.... I genuinly wish you success with thus project, I wish I was clever enough to build and market my own car. But in the current guise to be offered as a road car "pissing in the wind" springs to mind.

As stated earlier, cars which are not actively marketed as kit cars for the road are not seen as my main competition, and even if only the occasional sale is made there will be no financial problems resulting. I do have some knowledge of the size of the kit car market but it took me some time and trouble to acquire it, so I won't be publishing any of it here.

One of the things that is happening on this forum is that the people here are very kit car 'savvy', but inevitably that stops them from thinking like the average kit car buying public. On the other hand, I come into contact with that public frequently in the course of my work and that has given me a different perspective, and that perspective is what has led me down this particular path. Maybe it will turn out that I am wrong, we will just have to wait and see.

[Furyblade_Lee]

I can see where you are coming from with the not actively marketed as a road car, but the fact is that nearly all ( and certainly ALL cars in RGB ( ROAD GOING bike engined) need to be capable of passing at least an MOT and theoretically IVA (even if need be with vertical headlamp pods). The fact that hardly any are actually registered on the road if fact accentuates your problem, there is little market for them as pure road cars. I use my Phienix loads, but it clears every road hump, gets on and off ferries with no drama, as it has no overhangs. That makes it useable. I suppose yours will be no worse than an Ultima so may not be an issue. I'd just research the market a bit more before committing loads of cash into the project. In fact, try to have a chat with Mark Fisher, I am sure he will give you sone useful pointers about being a manufacturer.

[rhinochopig]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I can see where you are coming from with the not actively marketed as a road car, but the fact is that nearly all ( and certainly ALL cars in RGB ( ROAD GOING bike engined) need to be capable of passing at least an MOT and theoretically IVA (even if need be with vertical headlamp pods). The fact that hardly any are actually registered on the road if fact accentuates your problem, there is little market for them as pure road cars. I use my Phienix loads, but it clears every road hump, gets on and off ferries with no drama, as it has no overhangs. That makes it useable. I suppose yours will be no worse than an Ultima so may not be an issue. I'd just research the market a bit more before committing loads of cash into the project. In fact, try to have a chat with Mark Fisher, I am sure he will give you sone useful pointers about being a manufacturer.

I think you have a point. There is a risk that the car ends up with the negatives of both categories rather than the positives of both.

[singlecoil]

Furyblade_Lee said:

I can see where you are coming from with the not actively marketed as a road car, but the fact is that nearly all ( and certainly ALL cars in RGB ( ROAD GOING bike engined) need to be capable of passing at least an MOT and theoretically IVA (even if need be with vertical headlamp pods). The fact that hardly any are actually registered on the road if fact accentuates your problem, there is little market for them as pure road cars. I use my Phienix loads, but it clears every road hump, gets on and off ferries with no drama, as it has no overhangs. That makes it useable. I suppose yours will be no worse than an Ultima so may not be an issue. I'd just research the market a bit more before committing loads of cash into the project. In fact, try to have a chat with Mark Fisher, I am sure he will give you sone useful pointers about being a manufacturer.

We will have to agree to disagee then, especially about the marketing strategy, for the reasons I gave earlier. Never-the-less I value your comments. Please stop worrying about the financial outlay, it won't be that much.

Perhaps the DD will answer the points about the road usability, especially in regard to the front overhang. It may well be that he will need to reduce it but whether that can be done without messing up the looks and the aerodymnamics too much is for him to answer. He comes from a cometition car background, and is well into CFD, so he leans in that direction, whereas I lean the other way. The pictures shown are of a design which we know will be changing in various respects.

[pilbeam_mp62]

Singlecoil/DD - IMO your design and plans are neither fish nor fowl.

As a track-only car it may have stood a small chance, in what is a highly competitive market (but IMO not with the engine/gearbox combo you have said you will be using, which is an underpowered lump) - prospective buyers of trackday cars are surely likely to consider bike engines which are cheaper and easier to install and run.

As a road car, I think you will struggle - I think it will cost you a fortune to bring an IVA compliant car to market - and again, as a prospective buyer I would have serious reservations about the choice of engine (which will presumably need the original loom and ECU), so you will have your work cut out to integrate that with all the instruments that an IVA compliant car will need.

I have followed your posts for many months now and my observation (not a criticism) is that BEFORE you post a question or a request for peoples opinion, you appear to have already decided what your own view is, and you are very reluctant to change it - even though the people replying, and giving their feedback, are your potential market.

Unless you have some serious funding in place, I very much doubt that this project will ever see the light of day - I just don't think it is feasible on a shoestring budget.

Regards

[singlecoil]

pilbeam_mp62 said:

Singlecoil/DD - IMO your design and plans are neither fish nor fowl.

As a track-only car it may have stood a small chance, in what is a highly competitive market (but IMO not with the engine/gearbox combo you have said you will be using, which is an underpowered lump) - prospective buyers of trackday cars are surely likely to consider bike engines which are cheaper and easier to install and run.

The 1.8t an underpowered lump? Are you serious? It's 150 in its mildest form, 180 in the standard but higher output form, 250 easily obtainable with a bigger turbo, and that's all without opening the engine up. With more suitable rods and pistons there's a lot more reliable power to be had.

pilbeam_mp62 said:

As a road car, I think you will struggle - I think it will cost you a fortune to bring an IVA compliant car to market - and again, as a prospective buyer I would have serious reservations about the choice of engine (which will presumably need the original loom and ECU), so you will have your work cut out to integrate that with all the instruments that an IVA compliant car will need.

Although it will be up to the customer what electronics he chooses, we will be recommending an aftermarket unit which will be supplied complete with engine loom. This will easily be mappable to suit different set-ups and will cost under £1000. The instrument requirements could then be provided by one of those inexpensive integrated units.

Why do you thing it will cost a fortune to pass the IVA?

pilbeam_mp62 said:

I have followed your posts for many months now and my observation (not a criticism) is that BEFORE you post a question or a request for peoples opinion, you appear to have already decided what your own view is, and you are very reluctant to change it - even though the people replying, and giving their feedback, are your potential market.

to be fair to me (and why would we not want to be ) the thread was started by the Detail Doctor purely to get reactions to his design. Most of what I have said has been in response to questions and comments by other posters. I don't remember asking for any opinions on the marketing, but have responded to those put forward by others, which they are very welcome to do. I don't mind them making these points, even though I didn't ask for them, and they mustn't mind me responding to them.

pilbeam_mp62 said:

Unless you have some serious funding in place, I very much doubt that this project will ever see the light of day - I just don't think it is feasible on a shoestring budget.

Regards

But you haven't said why you think that, or what amount of money 'serious funding' means to you.

Edited by singlecoil on Friday 19th March 15:10

[pilbeam_mp62]

singlecoil said:

pilbeam_mp62 said:

Unless you have some serious funding in place, I very much doubt that this project will ever see the light of day - I just don't think it is feasible on a shoestring budget.

Regards

But you haven't said why you think that, or what amount of money 'serious funding' means to you.

Edited by singlecoil on Friday 19th March 15:10

Well I suppose I am starting from the assumption (maybe I am wrong) that you are not an expert in , for example, making a buck and moulds for the body - I am making that assumption based on various posts you have made in the past where you are looking for information on the process.

So then I am thinking - what would it cost to have a professional do this from a computer design ? - and as a ballpark, I am picking, out of thin air, a figure of 250 hours labour to do this from soup to nuts.

Anyone worth their salt will surely be charging, what, £35 - £50 an hour for this skill, so you have the thick end of 10 grand to produce just the body.

I don't think you have mentioned the chassis at any point up till now ? (Again, I may be wrong)

Then I guess you will need to employ the services of someone to design suspension etc... the list goes on - and this is what I mean when I say it will cost a fortune to bring an IVA compliant car to market - you will surely have to employ the services of some experts in areas that you do not know enough about ?

What do I mean by serious funding ? I don't really know, but if you told me you had £50,000 - £80,000 sitting in your bank account earmarked for this project, that would smell to me like an amount of money that could, perhaps, be sufficient to develop an IVA compliant kit car that will sell for £15 - 20 grand - but what do I know....You say that you have done your homework - so I may be miles wide of the mark.

Regards

[singlecoil]

pilbeam_mp62 said:

Well I suppose I am starting from the assumption (maybe I am wrong) that you are not an expert in , for example, making a buck and moulds for the body - I am making that assumption based on various posts you have made in the past where you are looking for information on the process.

So then I am thinking - what would it cost to have a professional do this from a computer design ? - and as a ballpark, I am picking, out of thin air, a figure of 250 hours labour to do this from soup to nuts.

Anyone worth their salt will surely be charging, what, £35 - £50 an hour for this skill, so you have the thick end of 10 grand to produce just the body.

I agree that ideally a professional should be used to do this, but I'm not able to fund that so will have to do it myself. You are right that this part of the process is absolutely key. There are a number of ways of going from a CAD model to 3D suitable as a mould pattern, and the process I intend to use is a development of those, that I have come up with myself. I won't say too much about it now in case it doesn't work (though I can't think why it wouldn't) but if it doesn't then the project will collapse at that stage.

I do have some experience of shaping, especially wood, having previously been a maker of solid elctric guitars. I also have some experience of glassfibre (enough to know I don't like it) but I think I should be just about OK on that. I have plans to get some help with it, from an experienced bloke.

pilbeam_mp62 said:

I don't think you have mentioned the chassis at any point up till now ? (Again, I may be wrong)

Then I guess you will need to employ the services of someone to design suspension etc... the list goes on - and this is what I mean when I say it will cost a fortune to bring an IVA compliant car to market - you will surely have to employ the services of some experts in areas that you do not know enough about ?

I did touch on this briefly earlier. There is another engineer working on the chassis and the suspension. He's using Solidworks too, so the output integrates easily with DD's work. WHen that is complete it can be output as cutting files which can be used to have the ends of the tubes CNC laser cut with the accuracy you would expect. This isn't terribly expensive, BTW. The wishbones will be made by people who do this all the time, and just need the dimensions.

The chassis designer is working on the project for a royalty if it goes ahead, and for fun and experience if it doesn't. I am certainly going to do what I can to make it happen.
As for the likely overall costs, these have been considered very carefully and they are nowhere near the figures you mention, although for a small firm going about this conventionally, I would agree wit your estimation.

Edited by singlecoil on Friday 19th March 16:33

[NorWitch69]

the best way to make money in this game....

design something on paper that is favourable to the masses and start taking deposits from the off.
A good stroke of fortune would be an investor that goes for at least 6 from the start up to get him in your pocket
Then part build a car that looks like a car but with actual no real finishing or development or where any major money needs inputting into the concept.
Start to deliver a few kits to people to drip feed the illusion
Get more deposits in and keep the game going but making sure the output of goods in the month is always less than the input of cash.
People wont squeal if you have there money tied up at 50% outlay for sure.
Move onto many designs in the same manner as the above

Then why not call the car a ponzi which would be far better than a Rapier for sure.

Edited by NorWitch69 on Friday 19th March 22:57

[fuoriserie]

Any updates on the project ?

[singlecoil]

fuoriserie said:

Any updates on the project ?

I haven't heard fron the DD for quite a long time, so I have to assume that he is not able to continue with the project.

I have reverted to an earlier plan, you might recall you and I exchanged a couple of emails about it some time ago.

I need to take on an employee shortly, and as part of my cunning plan I intend to employ a skilled welder fabricator, with the deliberate intention of using him to help me with my normal work, and to make the chassis for the project I referred to above.

[fuoriserie]

singlecoil said:

fuoriserie said:

Any updates on the project ?

you might recall you and I exchanged a couple of emails about it some time ago.

.

You're sure you sent them to me ?? you must be mistaking me with someonelse.....maybe you meant replys on a posts on kitcar design in the forum and not emails?


But I'm sorry your project has come to an end ....

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 17th May 16:01

[singlecoil]

fuoriserie said:

singlecoil said:

fuoriserie said:

Any updates on the project ?

you might recall you and I exchanged a couple of emails about it some time ago.

.

You're sure you sent them to me ??

Almost certain. It would be 2 years ago or thereabouts, unfortunately my email records don't go back that far

fuoriserie said:

But I'm sorry your project has come to an end ....

That project would appear to have done so, but it doesn't matter because the previous project is now back at the top of my agenda and I am in a better position to pursue it than I was before.

[fuoriserie]

singlecoil said:

fuoriserie said:

singlecoil said:

fuoriserie said:

Any updates on the project ?

you might recall you and I exchanged a couple of emails about it some time ago.

.

You're sure you sent them to me ??

Almost certain. It would be 2 years ago or thereabouts, unfortunately my email records don't go back that far

fuoriserie said:

But I'm sorry your project has come to an end ....

That project would appear to have done so, but it doesn't matter because the previous project is now back at the top of my agenda and I am in a better position to pursue it than I was before.

Even my emails don't go that far and my memory is leaving me sometimes....but Anyway, good luck with your new project and looking forward to it in the future....

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 17th May 17:45

[TheDetailDoctor]

I'm afraid I have been unable to commit the amount of time I would have liked to commit to this project, I have a day job that I need to do to pay the bills. Initially I agreed to provide a pictorial reprsentation of how the car would look. I think I've gone way above that brief. Whilst I have been making some progress on the finer details of the project, it's been slow, but as it's apparently come to an end I'll waste no more of my time on it.

Edited by TheDetailDoctor on Tuesday 18th May 06:51

[singlecoil]

TheDetailDoctor said:

but as it's apparently come to an end I'll waste no more of my time on it.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I wish I'd realised you were still working on it.

[MKnight702]

If you are considering Audi engine and transmission (and I think that's a good thing!) what about the V8 coupled with the 6 speed manual box from the TDi. This gives you a gearbox that will take the torque plus doesn't need modification to convert from 4wd. IIRC a chap called Hilly(sp) converted his Lotus Esprit to this spec and did an absolutely superb job too. May be worth a look?

Oh, and I like the looks of the car too, I quite fancy something like the Spire GTR but with a car engine more for road use and yours would seem to fit the bill.

[yazza54]

singlecoil said:

TheDetailDoctor said:

but as it's apparently come to an end I'll waste no more of my time on it.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I wish I'd realised you were still working on it.

So you've cancelled the project because you thought he wasn't working on it, when he actually was...just slowly?

Surely you have contact outside of the forum?! I don't mean to be an arse but how are you going to produce this even once as a prototype, never mind as a well organised kit and business proposition (if that's the ultimate aim), when just getting this far and the communication between those involved has been difficult? (or seems to be)

Granted I don't know an awful lot about this project, or you..I'm not saying it seems any one person is to blame, but it gives the impression that you're having brief discussions about the project's direction on here rather than personally which can't help?

Don't get me wrong, I like the initial designs and ideas and I think given the right audience it could do well.. so I hope you get sorted in one form or another and get back on track!

Edited by yazza54 on Tuesday 18th May 08:43

[TheDetailDoctor]

singlecoil said:

TheDetailDoctor said:

but as it's apparently come to an end I'll waste no more of my time on it.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I wish I'd realised you were still working on it.

I'm not as of now, glad I was the first to find out!