Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
S2Mike said:
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So, on the theme of 2 seater sports, a side view of the Lister Jaguar I posted a front view of earlier, very similar shape, lots of swooopy curves and a bulge for the "business area". ( Note the Technical Terms ) Not that unlike a TVR S series.! Actually you could mount the engine further back thereby almost all the weight of engine , gearbox and pilot and co-pilot would be between the axles.
This would suit , the bolt on enclosed cabin of the last two posts of the shooting brake, need not have a boot lid but gain access from the cabin, like the 1950s Frog-eye Sprite.!
Access for the engine would be via a tilt one-piece front end, maybe a slightly taller windscreen although keep the steep raked angle, and have wind up windows in the doors and a folding soft-top, but keep the more square( chopped off) back-end .
Still an update of the Lister could sell. It's just not right for our idea, which is more GT and this is more sports/racer. I hope some one takes up the idea. It would make an interesting Seven/Cobra competitor.
If you are going to look back to the 1957. I feel this 1957 Frank Costin designed Lotus Eleven coupe offer more for a GT. Would need a radical update to become Brit-Fire, but I feel the length of the bonnet/cabin are right. As is that clipped off tail. The windscreen would need to be changed. Not certain about the side exhausts.
S2Mike said:
OlberJ said:
Have you singled down a good one car donor for the guts yet?
.I believe Dreamspeed is already involved in a VAG based design, and is recommending that it makes a good place to start, although there are still some requirements that may not suit everything available from the single donor.
I have also heard Gerald TVR an appointed dealer is working on a project for a TVR esque design,which could bring a little competition!
That would be with http://www.cwrcars.com see below...
CWR Megaera Concept
SystemParanoia said:
VAG dont have any RWD gearboxes though..
unless you fit an audi transaxle at the rear and develop a prop shaft spinning on an expensive bearing to run from the engine at the front to the gearbox and clutch assembly at the back.
What wrong with FWD? They do 4 wheel drive, could that be used?unless you fit an audi transaxle at the rear and develop a prop shaft spinning on an expensive bearing to run from the engine at the front to the gearbox and clutch assembly at the back.
Any we I was think of this more for Brit-Flame a mid-engined V6 2+2.
rudecherub said:
jagnet said:
rudecherub said:
Reliant Scimitar used transit four speed + od back in the day.
Every day's a school day - I never knew that 
I have a big question, one that should be asked a lot more than it is.
Why are we building Brit-Flame/Fire as a kit car?
I understand the cost of full production are too high, but what do are buyers gaining from us selling this these as kits?
Here is my answer to those customers....
To make these cars affordable to more people.
To give more people the chance to own a something different and/or fun.
To keep a British car industry going, even it's just a small one.
Why are we building Brit-Flame/Fire as a kit car?
I understand the cost of full production are too high, but what do are buyers gaining from us selling this these as kits?
Here is my answer to those customers....
To make these cars affordable to more people.
To give more people the chance to own a something different and/or fun.
To keep a British car industry going, even it's just a small one.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Thursday 9th August 11:30
Above is the "Monster Sport E-Runner Pikes Peak Special" by Tajima. An electric race car being use on the Pikes Peak hill climb. Could we build Brit-electric car. Could it be a real sports car, a usable kit car.
I dislike electric cars personal, the batteries being the main problem not the electric motors. For "Brit-Spark" I would not use batteries replacing them with a fly-wheel system. Both lighter and last longer. We could keep this total British and by not using batteries this could be a much lower cost car. It could also be 4 wheel drive, or a hybrid if we use a small petrol motor to spin up the fly-wheel. We could use the 3D printer tech to build the motors and the fly wheel systems. Total control of the car.
I bet a lot of you will dislike this idea. Please think about this, electric motor go from zero to full speed in seconds, the limit on 0-60 is grip. I would aim for an sub 4 seconds.
Dreamspeed said:
Hmmm….. Electric….Hmmm….Diesel……..not for me thanks. I would gladly give up a second or two 0-60 time or a few MPH on top speed or a few less MPG for a glorious engine note, a bark from the exhaust as it flames on the up change, or crackles on the down change!
Electric and Diesel have their place, but trying to sum up what’s great about Britain and the glory days of the Bentley boys; in fact British motor sport in general, and I’m afraid there’s no place for either Electric or Diesel. They’re good for what they can do, but have no soul. IMHO anyway.
Funny but I agree with some of this. I do love the bark of an exhaust form a classic Bentley. Modern cars don't bark, don't have a glorious engine note or crackles on change down. I offer don't hear modern cars coming when behind me. Children of today we have a different set of sounds for cars to us.I still remember the funny sounds of a DAF my Dad had when I was about 6 or 7. Electric and Diesel have their place, but trying to sum up what’s great about Britain and the glory days of the Bentley boys; in fact British motor sport in general, and I’m afraid there’s no place for either Electric or Diesel. They’re good for what they can do, but have no soul. IMHO anyway.
Modern car are quieter. Electric cars will make sounds and noise that children will remember in the same as do those Bentley noises. For safety reason a sound will need to put onto electric cars, we could use those old Bentley sound, just faked. That sounds very sad!
Now on with the moans...
Toltec said:
Having a flywheel capable of storing useful amounts of energy could leave you with some interesting handling issues.
A friend of mean said the same. Could you use more than one, meaning they could be smaller? They were unclear if this would work, or would create more problems. Some else remembered buses in Sweden used flywheels when they lived there. I know the Audi's had one at Le Mans this year, so I could work. GM may have build a electric car with a flywheel intended to run at Le Mans at some point in the 80's or 90's. Never race it as they feared it crashing and the flywheel escaping. This could be wrong. Are there any other way to store electric power, apart from batteries or a flywheel?
Nikolai said:
Let's not get carried away with talk of flywheels etc! 1 step at a time. The most important thing especially for a 2 seat roadster or mid eng sports car is looks, which is also very difficult to get right. No harm in being ambitious but most car designs can be made to accept electric power retrospectively, it is much more important in the early stages of unleashing a car to the world to make sure people at least want to be seen in it.
I would agree that the look of a car is very important. first we need to prove/test out the flywheels system. Once we have done that it we will understand what the car need to carry, how big the system would be and what it weights. The car could then be design round the system. Now this ones for Dreamspeed. You like old Bentley, as do I, well how about Brit-30...
I had forgotten down loading this. It is the Bentley-Dynamo concept by Marc Senger. I like this a lot, it bends retro and current design ideas in a very nice way. As a lot of people seem to be work on recreating TVR this could be a better idea for Brit-Fire. A bit like the current Morgans, retro modern and powered by a BMW. For me personal I like smaller light car, but this could convert me, not that it is that big.Use the darker British racing green that Jaguar's used at Le Mans in the 50's/60's and it would look right, powered by a V12 BMW blown! As to the chassis I think you could use a seven or Cobra.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 11th August 11:54
Another car inspired by the 1920 Le Mans Bentley. The Aero Ace-Speed IV, a very aerodynamic car that reflect current ideas well. For more on this http://www.industrialdesignserved.com/Gallery/Bent...
A very track aimed car. Seat 1+1 tandem, still interesting.
Now a roadster ...
A bit to hot rod! Not a great design (do you agree?) but shows there is lot of new room for a modern retro car.
for more go to http://www.motorsportretro.com/2012/07/bentley-bar...
I am of any age to remember when the 1930's Roadster market was one of the most important in the kit car industry. Now it is all but gone, new designs like could change all that. Morgan is selling similar modern/retro designs that are generating buyers, new buyers to them. These are exciting and different to anything on sale today in the kit car world. Add in our ideas on simple build kits.
I can see how I would market these to people outside the normal kit buyer.
Like the Merc donor idea. They offer a range of engines and no FWD problems. I wonder why no one is using them?
S2Mike said:
Dreamspeed said:
S2Mike said:
Dreamspeed, you mention the "MG X POWER SV do you remember them being built by enthusiasts," well by chance today, I had a very interesting chat with a chap, who has bought up all the body and mechanicals of these supercars, now in process of building them on a small scale, in a local factory, looking for some parts to be made and engraved by myself. Looking at getting the first one finished in the next couple of months, already taken a deposit and talking £50,000 each.
There is a market out there for vehicles with character and performance.
In a factory unit near you eh?
Really? Now that is interesting. I’d like to know much more about that. I’ve always liked the MG X Power SV. I was very disappointed in the way the MG badge was used in the 80’s (Montego/Maestro) and thought the cars in the 90’s onwards were no real match for a German/Japanese equivalent.There is a market out there for vehicles with character and performance.
In a factory unit near you eh?
But when the MG SV came out, it showed promise, especially when it was on TopGear and they mentioned a 5.0 litre 1000bhp version which they promised to bring back and test on the track, but they never did.
How far away is this “factory unit”?, might just drive by and use the old knock at the door trick “Hi, can I borrow a cup of brown sugar”
Its on the Waterloo trading estate in Bidford on Avon, Warwickshire, and Tenbury Wells near Worcester.
Apparently according to the chap who came to see me there were only 82 made, originally and at least 12 have ceased to be!
With Gerald TVR in Redditch building a Tuscan "homage", it must be getting back to the days gone by when everyone and their dog was having a go at building cars in the shed. Like Swallow Sidecars, and see where that got Great Britain, until we " dropped the baton ". !
Exciting Times for the real Car Enthusiasts..
As to the Gerald TVR attempt to build a homage to the Tuscan. What a cleaver way to put it. A through not mine, is there a market for a TVR like car, or just for a TVR! Let me explain, the cars were big powerful sportscar so anyone can build one. TVR was more than just the cars, it was an image a brand name that said a lot. A rebel company for the interdependently minded, two fingers to every one in metal. To the end they did thing there way, moving away from V8's to a straight 6. No one else can be TVR. Is there a gap for a car like a TVR or just for a TVR.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Monday 13th August 19:16
Dreamspeed said:
I like that, especially with the Blown BMW V12. I’d give it some side pipes, so you could see the “crackle”!
You’d need a serious chassis; I’d be looking at 1000bhp so a monster Cobra chassis with extra bracing should do the trick.
Actually, just had a thought, use Mercedes S-class running gear, with its V12, Blown of course. It would be like bringing the Bentley boys and the mighty Mercs together from the 20’s!
I don’t think it’ll fit any of the 3-car line up currently suggested though, so only one thing for it….. a 4-car line up! This will be called the “Brit-Titan”
(TITAN (Τῑτάν): According to Diodorus, the Titans were named after their mother Titaia, meaning "fire; to burn." Hesiod derives the name from titaino, "straining." In Greek mythology, this is the name of a sun god, the brother of Helios, and the name of a race of giants. It is also the name of the largest moon of the planet Saturn.)
Still keeping the “fire” theme, but must admit; looked that one up!
You’d need a serious chassis; I’d be looking at 1000bhp so a monster Cobra chassis with extra bracing should do the trick.
Actually, just had a thought, use Mercedes S-class running gear, with its V12, Blown of course. It would be like bringing the Bentley boys and the mighty Mercs together from the 20’s!
I don’t think it’ll fit any of the 3-car line up currently suggested though, so only one thing for it….. a 4-car line up! This will be called the “Brit-Titan”
(TITAN (Τῑτάν): According to Diodorus, the Titans were named after their mother Titaia, meaning "fire; to burn." Hesiod derives the name from titaino, "straining." In Greek mythology, this is the name of a sun god, the brother of Helios, and the name of a race of giants. It is also the name of the largest moon of the planet Saturn.)
Still keeping the “fire” theme, but must admit; looked that one up!
Spoke with a friend of a friend connected to Drag racing. Who sees two problem with 1000bhp, gearbox and tyres. Very few gearbox will take this much power for more than a few seconds and every less for road use. Tyres are a bigger problem, very few will not be damaged by this, the few that can take will only do so once! The damage done means changing them after full speed runs. Would also use a lot of petrol, so big tank needed.
They hint that 650-850 could be more use for a road car. In fact they know of a V12 Mercedes that runs a proven 767 BHP. This is in Spain and used on the road. Has had gearbox problems which they are still working on, slip at around 700 BHP when drag raced. They are looking a Dodge Viper gearbox as used by Bristol in the Figther 1015 BHP claimed.
They also made a comment on the chassis. He owned a Dax Cobra and commented that was a very chassis, he had a 650 BHP BMW engine out of a drag car in this for a number of years. Sad written off a few years back by a French lorry when it was parked. I believe this chassis was used under the BMW Z7 car in James Bond.
Stuart Mills said:
The MEVX5 Coupe body can be fitted on the Superlight chassis. It would involve using the MX5 screen and frame but is not impossible to cut off the donor. The kits are available but we are offering the project for sale too if anyone is interested in becoming a car manufacturer for only 15k, if you are you are surely insane!
We do need the space and the X5 is not moving in any serious numbers compared to the Exocet and the new MEVSTER is already selling even though it is not finished.
I read this on another topic. Nice to know we are all insane for thinking of becoming a car manufacturer. Clearly so is Stuart Mills! What does not selling serious numbers mean? If this means less than 10 a year with only a small profit on each you would be insane to take this on. If its 30-50 year with that small profit it could work... We do need the space and the X5 is not moving in any serious numbers compared to the Exocet and the new MEVSTER is already selling even though it is not finished.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Thursday 16th August 16:49
Can you guess which country this comes from?
Where the engine is? How big? (If British bet It would have big motor bike).
Personal I don't like that funny hart shape grill. I really like the rear 2/3 of this design. I like the way it use a flat windscreen. It does need a two tone paint to look right.
I post this more for the quality it shows inside for a low volume car. After meet a drag racer who owners one, in Spain where they live. They commented it creates a lot of interest and it has been parked by some very rare car and still got a crowd round it. How does this link with the Bit range, It shows how good a low volume car could look. Does any British kit cars equal the interior of this? Well they should be trying to if they cost over £15000! To many kit have just a few bit of flat wood with no real design, an after thought. Kits should do more, as the drive will be looking at the interior a lot. It should make the driver feel special. This does!
This does convince me that retro/Hi-tech and classic design should still have a place in Britain Kit car industry.
I will once a few of had look at this tell you all what it is and answer my question, if you have not.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Saturday 18th August 10:40
1point7bar said:
Is there another way to determine if a car will sell other than launch it as a model?
If you go to http://www.4stroke-design.com/ it states that they build a one off and this lead to the production car. This does mean build a complete car, with all the problems that throws up. It is how many kit on sale today and in the past started.
A better way, I believe, could be to build a "mock-up" and visit shows with this. Test the water before you commit to the final car. It is a route use by many production manufacturer. These show cars normal are a little over the top and used to test new or radical style ideas on the general public that late are watered down for production. It is the away I would go with the Brit-Fire and it relate cars.
A quick note on the Hi-tech/retro cars. I feel this are not real part of the Brit system of car. They should have there own different image. That need a different brand name, I was think of something like Albion, or Pendragon. (The second is the family name of King Arthur and leads to other name). They could still share a lot of running.
I decide to add this as it shows your point...
Above is the Vigillante a V8 200+MPH car. That could out handle most cars as it was design right. Now I know this would not sell well as a kit. On looks .... well just look at picture above. The dislike of three wheeled cars would kill this, even if it could out run and handle most cars. An update of this would fun, but it would have to a one off.
This is the TriVette the car that predated the Vigillante. This was sold as a kit in the US in the 1970's. Selling 22-25 with a Fiat 850 as the donor. Not a bad sells total. Any one for an update of this? I would, a nice bike engine in the back and you could scare most performance cars. If you got the design right or just your self if wrong.
Would these sell? On the performance yes, as three wheeled cars?
Edited by KDIcarmad on Monday 20th August 11:36
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