KIT CAR DEVELOPMENT COSTS?

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

Cars with doors and screens are always going to cost far more to design/tool up for. The trick here is to use an off the shelf unit. The Smart roadster screen is 48" at the widest point and 29" at the highest and is therefore a potential kit car unit, not cheap though at £128 plus VAT. Expect to pay £60 trade for say a MK1 Escort screen forinstance. Yes there is big profit in car glass.
Bespoke tooling is around £3k plus pattern and silk screen for printing of black surround. Size makes little difference but the more it curves the more it costs. The MEV Sonic 7 screen is bespoke. Tooling was £2800. Most people agree however that the Sonic7 looks better with a fly screen due to the relatively wide shoulders on the car. The problem here is that as the screen is a slow sell then it will take forever if ever to get the £3k back.

I personal like the MEV Sonic 7 with the full screen more than the fly screens! I know I am odd. Cost is one of the reason we are seeing fewer and fewer kit cars with full screens. Is there a way to get the cost down?

[Frankthered]

KDIcarmad said:

I personal like the MEV Sonic 7 with the full screen more than the fly screens! I know I am odd. Cost is one of the reason we are seeing fewer and fewer kit cars with full screens. Is there a way to get the cost down?

I do like the idea of the Sonic 7 with the full screen too - not so sure about the looks though. Did I see one with a gullwing hardtop too? This is getting close to the "more practical Seven" concept that I was getting at earlier in the thread. I know there have been many more practical kit cars in the past, but that's the key;

IN THE PAST!

If they are still available now, they are pretty marginal. You can, theoretically, still buy a Minari or a Quantum +2 but they're not exactly selling like hot cakes! (Not sure I'd say either is really comparable to a Seven though - maybe the Minari is closer, but I may be a little biased as I have one.)

Stuart makes a great point about doors and glass putting the costs up. The other thing doors do is make the build significantly more difficult - this shouldn't be overlooked for a home build.

That's my point though, is there a sweet spot where there's just enough practicality, maintain relatively easy build, not blunt the performance too much and keep the cost at a level that makes sense?

[cymtriks]

Frankthered said:

Stuart makes a great point about doors and glass putting the costs up. The other thing doors do is make the build significantly more difficult - this shouldn't be overlooked for a home build.

That's my point though, is there a sweet spot where there's just enough practicality, maintain relatively easy build, not blunt the performance too much and keep the cost at a level that makes sense?

Easy.

Take a look at the Ford RS200. The windscreen, "A" pillars and doors are from a Sierra (though the doors have the bottom few inches removed)

Take a look at the Ginetta G32. The doors are from a Fiesta Mk1

Thake a look at the Beauford kit car. The entire cenre of the car, including the doors, is a Mini!

Alternatively just don't have doors. Look at the Strathcarron, Barchetta 595 and the beautiful (sadly the molds are long lost) Byers CR90. Just jump in and go!


So if a part causes problems to make yourself use someone elses or just leave it out.

[Frankthered]

cymtriks said:

Frankthered said:

Stuart makes a great point about doors and glass putting the costs up. The other thing doors do is make the build significantly more difficult - this shouldn't be overlooked for a home build.

That's my point though, is there a sweet spot where there's just enough practicality, maintain relatively easy build, not blunt the performance too much and keep the cost at a level that makes sense?

Easy.

Take a look at the Ford RS200. The windscreen, "A" pillars and doors are from a Sierra (though the doors have the bottom few inches removed)

Take a look at the Ginetta G32. The doors are from a Fiesta Mk1

They're great examples of what can be done and I'm sure they make the development costs lower. The Sebring Exalt uses the doors, glass and roof from the MX5 (I believe), but that doesn't necessarily make it much easier for the home builder to deal with fitting the doors, and if you have proper doors, proper trim is usually a good idea, adding weight all the time.

cymtriks said:

Take a look at the Beauford kit car. The entire cenre of the car, including the doors, is a Mini!

Not really a Seven, is it? Fair enough, that's not what they were aiming for - I'm pretty sure they stopped using the Mini shells quite a while ago too.

cymtriks said:

Alternatively just don't have doors. Look at the Strathcarron, Barchetta 595 and the beautiful (sadly the molds are long lost) Byers CR90. Just jump in and go!

Practicality for me would have to include half decent weather gear. "Just jump in and go, but get wet on the way home", doesn't really work for me.

So while no doors could well be the way to go, some sort of lowered side with an update of the Seven side screen would be great.

All this is just IMO, BTW.

Your 2+2 "adjustment" of the 21 looked pretty good BTW

[seansverige]

Frankthered said:

This is getting close to the "more practical Seven" concept ... a Minari or a Quantum +2

....is there a sweet spot where there's just enough practicality, maintain relatively easy build, not blunt the performance too much and keep the cost at a level that makes sense?

I'd say there are definitely points on the curve between a LSIS and a Minari, and definitely a sweet spot that improves practicality & comfort without the additional cost & complexity of a conventional door, but don't know if it's ever been done.

I'd question the assumption that it needs to be as easy & refined to use as a conventional car door; personally I'd be happy to accept something that requires a little 'fiddling' (for want of a better word), i.e., the equivalent of well designed manual soft top mechanism, if it did a reasonable job, was lightweight & cost effective.

It might need enlarged cutouts to facilitate ingress/egress, with a bar at sill level - permanent or removable - kinda like the Smart Crossblade. Removable 'door' panel underneath, there'd need to be a bearing surface in the cutout but I don't see why it couldn't form effective seal to bodywork with over centre catches or similar. Window panel made of perspex with hinged lower section like a 2CV or sliding centre panel as often seen on competition stuff. Although should be rigid enough to deploy without roof, should attach to it (again via over centre of similar) when on to tie structure together and improve seal / refinement. By keeping the components as simple as possible it should be possible to stow them onboard so that it's not necessary to check the weather before leaving the garage.

Clearly not going trouble mainstream NVH standards but just keeping occupants effectively out of elements would be an improvement on current situation. In fact, the biggest issue as I see it is the need for demist - most kits lack any form of heating, correct?

Obviously emergency egress would be a consideration and I don't know what the IVA implications are (if it's technically additional weather equipment does it need be presented at IVA time all?)

[Stuart Mills]

IVA test does not cover emergency egress Sean.
I would have thought the easiest and cheapest way to gain access to a water tight cabin is to climb over a relatively low side with a velcro a side flap that is zipped to the folding roof or hard top.
My Bond Bug has reasonable "doors" made from soft top material with a simple steel frame.

[seansverige]

Stuart Mills said:

IVA test does not cover emergency egress Sean.
I would have thought the easiest and cheapest way to gain access to a water tight cabin is to climb over a relatively low side with a velcro a side flap that is zipped to the folding roof or hard top.
My Bond Bug has reasonable "doors" made from soft top material with a simple steel frame.

Without wanting to sound like a snob, there'd be a different perception of quality with rigid panels and surely this is about broadening appeal; but I did have a think about it.

There's a whole aesthetic of high end technical outdoor clothing that could be exploited but I can't think of a single example where this has been done. Maybe if the fabric was in tension on a frame with a few curved spars (maybe even composite ones borrowed from dome tents) to give some form: think Velorex bonnet. Waterproof zips would obviate need for overlaps at joints which not only looks better but should reduce wind noise, drips etc.

Still think perspex (rigid) window with opening a must though...

[Stuart Mills]

seansverige said:

Without wanting to sound like a snob, there'd be a different perception of quality with rigid panels and surely this is about broadening appeal; but I did have a think about it.

There's a whole aesthetic of high end technical outdoor clothing that could be exploited but I can't think of a single example where this has been done. Maybe if the fabric was in tension on a frame with a few curved spars (maybe even composite ones borrowed from dome tents) to give some form: think Velorex bonnet. Waterproof zips would obviate need for overlaps at joints which not only looks better but should reduce wind noise, drips etc.

Still think perspex (rigid) window with opening a must though...

Tensioned fabric sounds like a possibility, not too expensive either.
Remember the documentary when we were informed that Caterham spent 300k developing the 21 and Lotus spent 8M developing the Elise
http://domestic1.sjc.ox.ac.uk/~jn/caterham-bbc4-do...

[seansverige]

Stuart Mills said:

Tensioned fabric sounds like a possibility, not too expensive either.
Remember the documentary when we were informed that Caterham spent 300k developing the 21 and Lotus spent 8M developing the Elise
http://domestic1.sjc.ox.ac.uk/~jn/caterham-bbc4-do...

Got that on the hard drive, much watch it again. Was thinking about it week or two ago - the latest Caterham news (i.e. new car) had escaped my attention when first announced. I'd guess Tony Fernandes has serious ambitions for Caterham brand so hopefully they have sufficient development resources this time, but let's hope history doesn't repeat itself - though the press reporting, particularly piece on the Car website, does make it sound like they have a well defined idea of what they want to achieve. The 21 was too late, too expensive for what it was, and retained too many of the Sevens problems; and although they were competently integrated, not a fan of the Mondeo taillights either... ;-P

The Elise not only new from ground up, but groundbreaking - wasn't it first major application of bonded chassis (not sure how widely extrusions had been used either) and ally brake discs?

[RudolphsOwner]

Hey guys, a very slight hi-jack thread regarding a thread I started this morning about the DDR SP4 ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ) and discussing the cost of making it road legal in the UK. I find all the pricing posts very interesting as the guy I'm speaking to needs to sell his imported RCR Superlites/Aspire for £140,000 to make it viable......

[craig7l]

RudolphsOwner said:

Hey guys, a very slight hi-jack thread regarding a thread I started this morning about the DDR SP4 ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ) and discussing the cost of making it road legal in the UK. I find all the pricing posts very interesting as the guy I'm speaking to needs to sell his imported RCR Superlites/Aspire for £140,000 to make it viable......

for ref purposes i dont need to sell anything to make anything viable - i am semi retired and as i type im laying around a pool in the algarve. I will enjoy my car when i am back in UK. It was chiron world who were looking to sell cars - not me!

someone told me the secret along while ago to make a small fortune in motorsport/cars ....start of with a large fortune.

a good quote for your train of thought rudolph... "before you put the "cost" on an item make sure its all complete, finished and in its box - before you put the price on the box make sure it fits in it" :-)

[RudolphsOwner]

craig7l said:

a good quote for your train of thought rudolph... "before you put the "cost" on an item make sure its all complete, finished and in its box - before you put the price on the box make sure it fits in it" :-)

You must have a very understanding corporate bank manager

And I apologise for making the assumption that you are the person behind Aspire Sportscars, it's just you have their website under your contact details as "your website", were quite involved in the original story/thread following it and you own the only one ever made... I'm sure you can understand how I could put that all together.

[craig7l]

thats ok roody... if you get that miamiGT and spend vasts amount of of time and money and effort developing it for gods sake change its name to the roody GT1 if only to stop the illusion to others that the miami is IVA compliant out the box.... hehehehe

[RudolphsOwner]

craig7l said:

thats ok roody... if you get that miamiGT and spend vasts amount of of time and money and effort developing it for gods sake change its name to the roody GT1 if only to stop the illusion to others that the miami is IVA compliant out the box.... hehehehe

And then try selling them on under the new name? hmmm... sounds familiar...... also sounds pretty damn illegal with regards to international copyright too.

Maybe if Aspire had mentioned/asked/requested to be a UK/EU broker for Race Car Replicas then they may have received a better service. Maybe if Aspire had mentioned they were going to make the car road legal, take moulds and then sell on majorly marked up re-branded replicas then they wouldn't have received any car in the first place (I can't see any UK kit car company being particularly understanding if Aspire had done that to them).
It also could be quite a clever marketing strategy to import the only kit in from America, openly publish how bad this (Otherwise quite well respected kit car company) is, knowing that nobody else has the experience to say otherwise, then take moulds and measurements from your new built car, whilst continuing to push how bad the experience was from RCR, and then finally move on to selling a slightly modified rebadged version. Maybe I'm just a bit too cynical.

Personally, I would never buy any car from america, whether built on a production line or bought as a kit, under the assumption that it would be road legal in the UK. There is no illusion that the DDR is IVA compliant, until one passes IVA none of them are IVA compliant, as soon as one passes with standard factory specification then they are all IVA compliant (in theory, without being pernickety regarding general re-tests).

I know you won't take any of the above personally because you are in no way connected to Aspire as I mentioned earlier (Other than the fact you own the one and only "Aspire"... and you list your occupation as "Finishing off Turnkey Projects from ponzi bullstters" ...nice...) and so I wish you all the best with your UK road legal Race Car Replicas Superlite and enjoy sitting by the pool in the Algarve. If you would like to continue our conversation by all means just PM me.

Apologies to everybody else, rant over and I'll proceed to keep a mute eye over the thread for the next few days as it is very interesting to dream the dream that some of you have already achieved.

• Matt hands back thread