KITCAR DESIGN sketches/concepts year 2008-10
Discussion
Davi said:
Kit cars need to fulfil whatever desires the prospective purchaser has, just like normal cars.
In real life most people can't afford to run several cars for each of their needs, so many looking at kits will want SOME level of practicality.
Practicality in kitcars is becoming very important, and do agree that most people do want that, so when designing a new kit, this needs to be taken into consideration with a modern kit.
I also think there is a niche for very extreme sportscars, just for the pure joy of track racing or the fun blast, but i'm sure it's a smaller niche, and pretty much cornered by a few exhisting kitcar manufacturers.....
Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 17th May 10:11
Practicality is a must in todays market as people are finding it harder to justify second/third vehicles just for fun.
That is why we went the direction we did with the road specification Murtaya, electric windows, reasonable boot space, plenty of room behind the seats, decent hardtop etc.
There is of course the lightweight version with all the bits stripped out for the trackday/race market, but the research we did showed very clearly that most people now EXPECT kit cars to be much the same as production cars from the OEMs (not that this is a particularly realistic expectation!).
The real challenge that I think we as manufacturers face is using as many OEM parts as we can in clever ways so that the finished product has the feel of an OEM car, but with improved performance and individuality that is the cornerstone of our industry.
The increasing popularity of panel swaps for MR2's, MX5's etc reflects the demands for OEM standards as generally speaking you end up with an OEM product (ie everything works how it should) that looks a bit different to the base vehicle. What these conversions generally do not provide is the increased performance and handling capabilities that many people crave.
We (and I am sure many other low volume manufacturers are the same) would love to make (or have made for us) many specific parts for our cars but financial reality means that it can not happen. However inventiveness has long been what this trade is all about, and here at Adrenaline we are committed to continue trying to move forwards by looking at mainstream products and repackaging them into vehicles that our customers want to buy.
I also find the arguments about budgets an interesting one. It is very difficult to manufacture an entire kit which delivers what everyone wants (high performance, great handling, superb quality, practicality etc etc)and keep the price low. I think that the origins of the market were based on the perception of 'cheap' kits and low prices. Ultimately over time as the market has developed customers have demanded improved standards (good thing) backed up by the SVA improving standards of design and execution (good thing)combining with the real world reality of costs for manufacturers spiralling, meaning that kits are no longer cheap alternatives to OEM vehicles (particularly the 2nd hand market which has crashed). What we perhaps need to consider as an industry is how to change the perception of kit cars from cheap alternative fun to mainstream products, to value for money alternatives to mainstream products.
The Murtaya is a prime example here. Build cost is realistically 17-20k on the road for a sensible specification car nicely finished. Look at the 2nd hand OEM alternatives at this price, loads of them!
So is the Murtaya an expensive kit car or a value for money alternative sportscar?
Likewise most 7 style kits, Marlin 5exi etc will all cost 8-10k (minimum) to build, mainstream alternatives, the obvious one is the Lotus Elise, once again the value for money question rears its ugly head!
This is why I (and several other manufacturers that I know of including MEV) watch these threads with great interest as they provide lots of food for thought for future models (and interesting feedback on current ones!).
Neil.
That is why we went the direction we did with the road specification Murtaya, electric windows, reasonable boot space, plenty of room behind the seats, decent hardtop etc.
There is of course the lightweight version with all the bits stripped out for the trackday/race market, but the research we did showed very clearly that most people now EXPECT kit cars to be much the same as production cars from the OEMs (not that this is a particularly realistic expectation!).
The real challenge that I think we as manufacturers face is using as many OEM parts as we can in clever ways so that the finished product has the feel of an OEM car, but with improved performance and individuality that is the cornerstone of our industry.
The increasing popularity of panel swaps for MR2's, MX5's etc reflects the demands for OEM standards as generally speaking you end up with an OEM product (ie everything works how it should) that looks a bit different to the base vehicle. What these conversions generally do not provide is the increased performance and handling capabilities that many people crave.
We (and I am sure many other low volume manufacturers are the same) would love to make (or have made for us) many specific parts for our cars but financial reality means that it can not happen. However inventiveness has long been what this trade is all about, and here at Adrenaline we are committed to continue trying to move forwards by looking at mainstream products and repackaging them into vehicles that our customers want to buy.
I also find the arguments about budgets an interesting one. It is very difficult to manufacture an entire kit which delivers what everyone wants (high performance, great handling, superb quality, practicality etc etc)and keep the price low. I think that the origins of the market were based on the perception of 'cheap' kits and low prices. Ultimately over time as the market has developed customers have demanded improved standards (good thing) backed up by the SVA improving standards of design and execution (good thing)combining with the real world reality of costs for manufacturers spiralling, meaning that kits are no longer cheap alternatives to OEM vehicles (particularly the 2nd hand market which has crashed). What we perhaps need to consider as an industry is how to change the perception of kit cars from cheap alternative fun to mainstream products, to value for money alternatives to mainstream products.
The Murtaya is a prime example here. Build cost is realistically 17-20k on the road for a sensible specification car nicely finished. Look at the 2nd hand OEM alternatives at this price, loads of them!
So is the Murtaya an expensive kit car or a value for money alternative sportscar?
Likewise most 7 style kits, Marlin 5exi etc will all cost 8-10k (minimum) to build, mainstream alternatives, the obvious one is the Lotus Elise, once again the value for money question rears its ugly head!
This is why I (and several other manufacturers that I know of including MEV) watch these threads with great interest as they provide lots of food for thought for future models (and interesting feedback on current ones!).
Neil.
neilrallying said:
The real challenge that I think we as manufacturers face is using as many OEM parts as we can in clever ways so that the finished product has the feel of an OEM car, but with improved performance and individuality that is the cornerstone of our industry.
IMO this is an area you (as a manufacturer) can only every allude to, not provide to the customer as it's going to be very much down to their capability.
One thing that instantly grabbed me about Ricola's Phantom was that sitting in it felt about as close to a production car as I've ever experienced in a kit - the fit and finish inside is superb, but that is down to his efforts rather than the car. There were a couple of minor bits that would slightly bother me - but contrast that with most kits, where there are usually only a couple of bits I'd be happy with!
Of course there are things you can do as a manufacturer to help this - good quality instrument binacles and dash layout, (how many kits seem to have the perfect outside and an interior shoved together in minutes?) & generally well thought out passenger compartment - hell copy a production model if you can to provide instant parts source!
Edited by Davi on Thursday 17th May 11:19
You are absolutely right, we can do little about the quality of assembly when providing the home builder with a kit other than offer a pre-sva inspection (which we do) as a means of trying to ensure that the cars go through first time, and also a way of quality checking the build (which is something that I am very keen on as our car is a very high performance machine, even when in basic spec, so making sure they are safe is very important to me).
However, we can ensure that the parts we supply are of excellent quality and fit together properly and easily, and (we at least) are increasingly being asked for turnkey cars as opposed to kits. In this area where people are regularly spending 25k + it is not acceptable to say that "it leaks because it is a kit car" (or another kit car type excuse) as the clients will just go and buy another S2000, 350z or whatever. We can no longer survive on saying that our standards should be lower because we do not have the OEM's money for development, the market (hardcore kit enthusiasts aside) will not stand for it.
Unfortunately for us there are just not enough hardcore kit enthusiasts around to survive solely on sales from those who understand the difficulties we face and make allowances for them. This is why we are looking at alternative markets such as the Japanese Performance buyers who spend fortunes on their rice rockets, why not put that money into an alternative car instead? the MaxPower boys are another obvious target. OK at the moment they spend silly money converting a Nova or Corsa into, well a Nova or Corsa. But these young guys and gals will continue to spend big bucks on their cars as they get older and we need to be grabbing their attention now with modern designs built with high standards so that as their tastes change they look to us instead of Mr Honda/Nissan for their answer.
Sorry, this is going away slightly from the thread but it is relevant to any new designs coming out.
Neil.
However, we can ensure that the parts we supply are of excellent quality and fit together properly and easily, and (we at least) are increasingly being asked for turnkey cars as opposed to kits. In this area where people are regularly spending 25k + it is not acceptable to say that "it leaks because it is a kit car" (or another kit car type excuse) as the clients will just go and buy another S2000, 350z or whatever. We can no longer survive on saying that our standards should be lower because we do not have the OEM's money for development, the market (hardcore kit enthusiasts aside) will not stand for it.
Unfortunately for us there are just not enough hardcore kit enthusiasts around to survive solely on sales from those who understand the difficulties we face and make allowances for them. This is why we are looking at alternative markets such as the Japanese Performance buyers who spend fortunes on their rice rockets, why not put that money into an alternative car instead? the MaxPower boys are another obvious target. OK at the moment they spend silly money converting a Nova or Corsa into, well a Nova or Corsa. But these young guys and gals will continue to spend big bucks on their cars as they get older and we need to be grabbing their attention now with modern designs built with high standards so that as their tastes change they look to us instead of Mr Honda/Nissan for their answer.
Sorry, this is going away slightly from the thread but it is relevant to any new designs coming out.
Neil.
Davi said:
wrong.
Kit cars need to fulfil whatever desires the prospective purchaser has, just like normal cars.
wrong, sorry man, but there are too many cheap and easy normal cars that come pre-built and with factory warrenties etc. If you want a normal car, go buy a golf or ford focus, like 60% of the population has done. Kit cars will always be the domain of the enthusiast. prospective buyers are the key thing here I think and you can't go appealing to the moms and pops daily drive, it just won't work.
Imagine the scenario, "Hey honey, lets get a car." - "OK dear" - "Here we'll spend £10K and then in 12 months I'll have finished building it"... seriously
By practical I would mean:
1) roof
2) 2 seats at least
3) a boot
By niche I mean:
1) beautiful
2) fast
3) V8
4) cheaper than £30K
target market definition is the most challenging thing in trying to get this off the ground IMO
Zigs said:
Davi said:
wrong.
Kit cars need to fulfil whatever desires the prospective purchaser has, just like normal cars.
wrong, sorry man, but there are too many cheap and easy normal cars that come pre-built and with factory warrenties etc. If you want a normal car, go buy a golf or ford focus, like 60% of the population has done. Kit cars will always be the domain of the enthusiast. prospective buyers are the key thing here I think and you can't go appealing to the moms and pops daily drive, it just won't work.
Imagine the scenario, "Hey honey, lets get a car." - "OK dear" - "Here we'll spend £10K and then in 12 months I'll have finished building it"... seriously
By practical I would mean:
1) roof
2) 2 seats at least
3) a boot
By niche I mean:
1) beautiful
2) fast
3) V8
4) cheaper than £30K
target market definition is the most challenging thing in trying to get this off the ground IMO
Have a chat with a few manufacturers - as Neil has already said practicality IS becoming an issue with kits.
There is already a large portfolio of kits that are thoroughly impractical - too many like products competing in the same market spells trouble for all. Without wanting to sound harsh or personal (it really isn't meant that way) your views are very narrow minded as to what YOU want out of a kit - I'm talking about the market in general - you need both sides to be worked on.
Thanks neil, did a search and found them, looks very nice, very very nice. Have you considered doing a 'fast back' version with a roof that cannot come off? maybe add ridgidity (sp?) and make higher hp more acceptable? You could potentially intergrate a 6pt cage in the process. Just a thought
Zigs
Zigs
Zigs said:
The problem that i have with kit cars available today is two fold:
1) a lot of them are just ugly
2) a lot of the look fast (i.e. the GTM Libra) and then you find out it has a 1.4ltr engine... I mean, wtf is that about?
Kit cars do not need to be practical, they need to fulfil the real sports car desires that we have , that is awesome looks, big engines, massive performance and the satisfaction of having built it yourself.
1) a lot of them are just ugly
2) a lot of the look fast (i.e. the GTM Libra) and then you find out it has a 1.4ltr engine... I mean, wtf is that about?
Kit cars do not need to be practical, they need to fulfil the real sports car desires that we have , that is awesome looks, big engines, massive performance and the satisfaction of having built it yourself.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I am struggling to understand why you feel 'kitcars' should be so narrowly defined.
Elsewhere on this thread you insist upon a V8. Why?? Do you think everyone wants a bloody great boat-anchor in their car?? Not me.
Libra?
1.4?
Why not?
Power is
all if it's in a lardy tank. Do the maths?? With less than 800kgs to pull around 1.4 makes a sharp little sportscar that can be tooled around the lanes without the struggle of changing direction with the momentum of Yank Iron to contend with. And give me the 7500rpm scream of mine with the roof off any day. You see?? We're all different. Some of us believe in Chapman's 'add lightness' philosophy.
Practicality? I can't see why we can't have it if we want it.
My car is a day-to-day car, just 'cos I built it doesn't mean I can't use it to go down the shops....
Top speed. 145mph (never been there)
0-60. 5 and a half?? Good enough for me.
Massive engine? No.
Zigs,
It looks like you've found the pictures you want...but just in case, here are more:
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume3.shtml
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume4.shtml
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume11.shtml
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume11.shtml
www.murtaya.com/MyMurtayaPicturesVolume1.shtml
Of course, if Neil wants to offer us more pics of the Murtaya with its hardtop on, feel free--Those are my favorite pics of the Murtaya.
I was originally thinking about waiting for a Murtaya coupe (if AMS was ever going to make one), but after seeing the Murtaya with its hardtop, I was sold. Before the Murtaya came along, I never had really considered getting a kit car (not that I look down on them--just that I don't have the know-how, confidence, or patience to put one together...so I'm getting a turn-key...I know I'm gonna get bashed on this forum for that
)...but the Murtaya had everything I could have possibly wanted in a car that nobody (not even the hyper-exotics) offered. I think this is one of the strengths of the kit car industry: it can offer something truly unique and--with the right people (like AMS, for example)--successfully get a quality product to the common man for still a decent price.
But enough of this outsider's talk...I could show some computer renderings of cars I've designed, and if anybody wants to use them for kit car designs, I'm cool with that.
Mike
It looks like you've found the pictures you want...but just in case, here are more:
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume3.shtml
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume4.shtml
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume11.shtml
www.murtaya.com/PicturesVolume11.shtml
www.murtaya.com/MyMurtayaPicturesVolume1.shtml
Of course, if Neil wants to offer us more pics of the Murtaya with its hardtop on, feel free--Those are my favorite pics of the Murtaya.
I was originally thinking about waiting for a Murtaya coupe (if AMS was ever going to make one), but after seeing the Murtaya with its hardtop, I was sold. Before the Murtaya came along, I never had really considered getting a kit car (not that I look down on them--just that I don't have the know-how, confidence, or patience to put one together...so I'm getting a turn-key...I know I'm gonna get bashed on this forum for that
)...but the Murtaya had everything I could have possibly wanted in a car that nobody (not even the hyper-exotics) offered. I think this is one of the strengths of the kit car industry: it can offer something truly unique and--with the right people (like AMS, for example)--successfully get a quality product to the common man for still a decent price. But enough of this outsider's talk...I could show some computer renderings of cars I've designed, and if anybody wants to use them for kit car designs, I'm cool with that.
Mike
Agree with you there Ferg, in todays world with headline grabbing figures from the like of AMG/Brabus/Ultima etc creating a culture of 'must have huge horsepower' many seem to have forgotten the fun that can be had with a good lightweight car and a screaming engine.
You can actually often have more fun with less power as you feel like you are driving it harder more of the time (and maybe even staying closer to legal while on the roads doing it!) than with some big power vehicles which simply scare you everytime you breath on the throttle.
Allied to which of course, as we are talking practicality on this thread at the moment, how many people can really afford the fuel bills/insurance that come hand in hand with the big V8 on a daily basis?
We have several buyers for the Murtaya who have previously owned very well known premium mid engined kit cars (!) who love the fact that they can throw our car around and wring its neck where as their previous vehicles were simply intimidating to drive on the road (although awesome on the drag strip or around smooth circuits).
The 'modest' 350bhp in our demo makes for a nice quick, practical daily driver that is great fun to hustle on real world B roads (we have not found many things that are quicker in a real world point to point environment).
Horses for courses though, there will always be a market for a big 8 burble!
Neil.
You can actually often have more fun with less power as you feel like you are driving it harder more of the time (and maybe even staying closer to legal while on the roads doing it!) than with some big power vehicles which simply scare you everytime you breath on the throttle.
Allied to which of course, as we are talking practicality on this thread at the moment, how many people can really afford the fuel bills/insurance that come hand in hand with the big V8 on a daily basis?
We have several buyers for the Murtaya who have previously owned very well known premium mid engined kit cars (!) who love the fact that they can throw our car around and wring its neck where as their previous vehicles were simply intimidating to drive on the road (although awesome on the drag strip or around smooth circuits).
The 'modest' 350bhp in our demo makes for a nice quick, practical daily driver that is great fun to hustle on real world B roads (we have not found many things that are quicker in a real world point to point environment).
Horses for courses though, there will always be a market for a big 8 burble!
Neil.
fuoriserie said:
What are the niches that haven't been explored yet, by the current kitcar manufacturers? where do you see growth in the future 2 to 5yrs? what cars are still missing ? and final question, would it make sense as a business ?
One-off and bespoke projects are great and love them, but very few kitcar manufacturers would ever consider this as an option, so this new kit has to be something that can be built, with a minimum of volume, let's say 30 to 50 kits a year.
What would you all design having such a brief?
If all these questions are answered and met, and we find a new niche , then we can design something that could make sense..........otherwise we will be designing only one-offs and custom cars.
Maybe start from the bottom of the kitcar market, a very locost, simple and cheerful roadster, fwd or rear wheel drive, or mid-engine? it has to be single donor to keep build cost low, fun and easy to build and mantain, what are your ideas?
Maybe a modern fwd or mid-engine Dune Buggy................., a mini SUV ?, a little and fun mid-engine coupe like the old GTM Coupe of the 80's?
Waiting for your ideas and proposals...and keep the ideas flowing, I've read very good thoughts and comments in this thread...
One-off and bespoke projects are great and love them, but very few kitcar manufacturers would ever consider this as an option, so this new kit has to be something that can be built, with a minimum of volume, let's say 30 to 50 kits a year.
What would you all design having such a brief?
If all these questions are answered and met, and we find a new niche , then we can design something that could make sense..........otherwise we will be designing only one-offs and custom cars.
Maybe start from the bottom of the kitcar market, a very locost, simple and cheerful roadster, fwd or rear wheel drive, or mid-engine? it has to be single donor to keep build cost low, fun and easy to build and mantain, what are your ideas?
Maybe a modern fwd or mid-engine Dune Buggy.................
, a mini SUV ?, a little and fun mid-engine coupe like the old GTM Coupe of the 80's? Waiting for your ideas and proposals...and keep the ideas flowing, I've read very good thoughts and comments in this thread...
The biggest unexploited niche is the rear wheel drive four seater. That is the main reason I suggested trying to start with an Elan plus 2 and trying to change the design just enough to stand on its own and distance itself from the spyder conversion while still being able to use some common parts like glass and doors.
A mid engined seven is entirely feasable, I posted some pictures of a chassis and a body style on locostbuilders a while back. The chassis was FEAed by me and my Focus 1.6 engine will fit under the panels. It doesn't have to look like a wedge or be dominated by angles, my design minimised the effect of the engine height to avoid an overt wedge style. It does not need to be single donor, this is a false economy as you have to ask yourself if you want to use a whole car that someone else has written off. Plus I don't want my drive taken up by a half striped wreck or my garage full of parts I won't need until much later on in the build. Having said that a Ford fiesta or Focus would make a fairly obvious donor car.
An MGF or MR2 sized middy is also feasable but here you will be competing with those two cars plus second hand elises. A kit would be lighter and could employ the Honda R engine or Volvo 2.5 turbo to great effect. I wouldn't bother with a lesser engine for this class as then the sales really will dwindle when buyers make the obvious comparisons. Again I posted my chassis thoughts for such a car on locostbuilders.
For a bigger sportscar the Audi range with their transaxles look like good donor choices as do Subaru and Porsche Boxster (yes, I know, not cheap, but there's lots about and engines with gearboxes are on ebay for less than the cost of modifying a rival engine). I'd be tempted to make a body style along the lines of the porsche 718 and 550.
Gotta agree with freg here.... I have a good collection of friends and almost all of them have a different idea of what their ideal kit is.
For some its all about the wow factor, for others its all about the performance, and there are of cause those that are driven by a lack of money and yet still want a serious performance car.
For some its all about the wow factor, for others its all about the performance, and there are of cause those that are driven by a lack of money and yet still want a serious performance car.
neilrallying said:
YUnfortunately for us there are just not enough hardcore kit enthusiasts around to survive solely on sales from those who understand the difficulties we face and make allowances for them. This is why we are looking at alternative markets such as the Japanese Performance buyers who spend fortunes on their rice rockets, why not put that money into an alternative car instead? the MaxPower boys are another obvious target. OK at the moment they spend silly money converting a Nova or Corsa into, well a Nova or Corsa. But these young guys and gals will continue to spend big bucks on their cars as they get older and we need to be grabbing their attention now with modern designs built with high standards so that as their tastes change they look to us instead of Mr Honda/Nissan for their answer.
Sorry, this is going away slightly from the thread but it is relevant to any new designs coming out.
Neil.
Sorry, this is going away slightly from the thread but it is relevant to any new designs coming out.
Neil.
Very relevant point if you start thinking of future buying trends, and potential niches to be considered in the future .
I believe a nice rebody bolt-on kit built on an exhisting mx5 or mr2 chassis, could be of interest to the MaxPower boys, but also to your kitcar enthusiast.
Some will like this idea, and some will not, but it's about making a business case for a product, and finding future niches in the next 2 to 5yrs...........
We always need to think ahead and take into consideration, demographic changes, buying preferences, and so on, and eventhough the kitcar industry is a niche, these parameters still need to be considered.
I also like the idea of a mid-engine 2 plus 2 or 4 seater set-up.........
cymtriks said:
[
A mid engined seven is entirely feasable, I posted some pictures of a chassis and a body style on locostbuilders a while back. The chassis was FEAed by me and my Focus 1.6 engine will fit under the panels. It doesn't have to look like a wedge or be dominated by angles, my design minimised the effect of the engine height to avoid an overt wedge style. It does not need to be single donor, this is a false economy as you have to ask yourself if you want to use a whole car that someone else has written off. Plus I don't want my drive taken up by a half striped wreck or my garage full of parts I won't need until much later on in the build. Having said that a Ford fiesta or Focus would make a fairly obvious donor car.
.
A mid engined seven is entirely feasable, I posted some pictures of a chassis and a body style on locostbuilders a while back. The chassis was FEAed by me and my Focus 1.6 engine will fit under the panels. It doesn't have to look like a wedge or be dominated by angles, my design minimised the effect of the engine height to avoid an overt wedge style. It does not need to be single donor, this is a false economy as you have to ask yourself if you want to use a whole car that someone else has written off. Plus I don't want my drive taken up by a half striped wreck or my garage full of parts I won't need until much later on in the build. Having said that a Ford fiesta or Focus would make a fairly obvious donor car.
.
But isn't this niche already catered for by the likes of the Sylva Mojo, R1ot, the new MEV Rocket, the Onyx Mongoose and a few others that I might have forgotten?
The idea is a good one, but the niche is pretty much fullfilled, maybe you could consider still a more basic option, but i'm not sure by how much.
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