Manor and the winds of change...

[groomi]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/...

Manor are apparently not going to do any wind tunnel work at all. None. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. They are relying solely on CFD which sounds like a major gamble to me and probably evidence that they really don't have a sufficient budget to do F1 properly.

[stevesingo]

I wonder why the established F1 players don't opt for the same strategy? Given the choice of betting on McLaren, Ferarri, RedBull et al or Manor... Need I say more.

One decimal point out and it all goes horribly wrong.

Steve

[Mr_Thyroid]

Wind tunnels are incredibly expensive and the result you get from them aren't necessarily easy to interpret - especially when testing cars.

[groomi]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Wind tunnels are incredibly expensive and the result you get from them aren't necessarily easy to interpret - especially when testing cars.

Likewise CFD. Which is why every F1 team of the past decade or so has used both as a cross-check.

[Oily Nails]

Well it makes betting on the first crash of the 2010 season much easier......;)

[philis]

groomi said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

Wind tunnels are incredibly expensive and the result you get from them aren't necessarily easy to interpret - especially when testing cars.

Likewise CFD. Which is why every F1 team of the past decade or so has used both as a cross-check.

Wind tunnels are a waste of time for the spectator, yes they make the car go faster round corners, but it always results in the cars behind going slower with the whole "dirty air" conundrum.

So whats the point in racing?

[zac510]

philis said:

Wind tunnels are a waste of time for the spectator, yes they make the car go faster round corners, but it always results in the cars behind going slower with the whole "dirty air" conundrum.

So whats the point in racing?

The point of course is to get your car to the front, to win the race, to win the championship and all the fruits that go with it. They're not entirely just there to please you, despite what you seem to think!

[groomi]

zac510 said:

philis said:

Wind tunnels are a waste of time for the spectator, yes they make the car go faster round corners, but it always results in the cars behind going slower with the whole "dirty air" conundrum.

So whats the point in racing?

The point of course is to get your car to the front, to win the race, to win the championship and all the fruits that go with it. They're not entirely just there to please you, despite what you seem to think!

And cars are designed to do exactly the same thing whether with wind tunnels or CFD or both.

[philis]

zac510 said:

philis said:

Wind tunnels are a waste of time for the spectator, yes they make the car go faster round corners, but it always results in the cars behind going slower with the whole "dirty air" conundrum.

So whats the point in racing?

The point of course is to get your car to the front, to win the race, to win the championship and all the fruits that go with it. They're not entirely just there to please you, despite what you seem to think!

Well how do you explain the cars getting to the grid in the first place, do you think they go to the money tree at the bottom of the garden? No they get sponsership. Big companies plunder millions of pounds on getting their names plastered all over the side of a car because they think everyone will tune in on a sunday to watch the "big race"
No race = no spectators = no sponsership = no f1.

So dispite what you mite think, the cars are there entirely to please me.

And thats the way it should be.

[entropy]

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

[egomeister]

entropy said:

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

But the aero on an LMP is nothing compared to that of f1. I just can't see cfd providing accurate enough results to develop a car to the level of detail seen in f1.

[Ahonen]

entropy said:

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

And it wasn't much quicker than the Oreca when the latter turned up at Petit. In fact Oreca were quicker in the race.

[Jungles]

egomeister said:

entropy said:

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

But the aero on an LMP is nothing compared to that of f1. I just can't see cfd providing accurate enough results to develop a car to the level of detail seen in f1.

"Nothing compared to that of f1" is a bit much. LMP1 cars are as technologically advanced as F1 in aerodynamics.

[llewop]

egomeister said:

entropy said:

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

But the aero on an LMP is nothing compared to that of f1. I just can't see cfd providing accurate enough results to develop a car to the level of detail seen in f1.

+1

As others have said: it seems you need to use a bit of everything to make sure your calibrations are right between different models and the track - otherwise you end up in a dead end somewhere - as many F1 teams have been over the last few years by trusting the tunnel or a model too much and not understanding what it did on the track.

[Project 644]

I wonder if the Duke of Rothsay will step in and settle the arguement about which aero is best?

[Scuffers]

Jungles said:

egomeister said:

entropy said:

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

But the aero on an LMP is nothing compared to that of f1. I just can't see cfd providing accurate enough results to develop a car to the level of detail seen in f1.

"Nothing compared to that of f1" is a bit much. LMP1 cars are as technologically advanced as F1 in aerodynamics.

not the point...

Closed wheel cars are somewhat less complex to work with, so whilst they may well be as "technologically advanced" as F1, the level of complexity is nothing like (and that's before you consider the staggering different levels of detail in the regs)

[Rouleur]

Project 644 said:

I wonder if the Duke of Rothsay will step in and settle the arguement about which aero is best?

He'd just do some calcs on the back of a fag packet, based on his having flown a trainer back in the 50s...

[egomeister]

Jungles said:

egomeister said:

entropy said:

Nick Wirth has his own R&D company and designed this year's Acura LMP1 mainly with CFD.

But the aero on an LMP is nothing compared to that of f1. I just can't see cfd providing accurate enough results to develop a car to the level of detail seen in f1.

"Nothing compared to that of f1" is a bit much. LMP1 cars are as technologically advanced as F1 in aerodynamics.

The flows around an LMP are much simpler than an F1 car as the LMP lacks the number of aero devices that an F1 car has (pretty much down to the sheer volume of testing that goes into every f1 design, compared to an LMP project)

Making gains in f1 is like walking a tightrope - it's so easy to make a change that results in a loss that I don't see cfd being able to match the level of detail that a tunnel can at the moment, and hence missing on the small cumulative gains that put performance on a car.

[double6]

I can just imagine the conversation at the first race ....

Race engineer: can I have the offsets for the front wing gurneys
Aero guy: yeah here you go..
Race engineer: that’s great but what about the clr offset...doesn’t the front wing gurney effect the rear of the car ?
Aero guy: not in a front wing only cfd model it doesn’t
Race engineer: okay can i have the ride height map
Aero Guy : yeah here you go
Race engineer : but theres only 2 points on the map
Aero Guy : do you know how difficult it is to change the ride height in a CFD model

Whilst I wish them all the luck in the world, what I am trying to say is they don't have a cat in hells chance of capturing the detail needed.

just as a side point it was nick wirth who came up with the idea of the CDG wings to improve overtaking as well...thank god it was never adopted

[Marcia]

Project 644 said:

I wonder if the Duke of Rothsay will step in and settle the arguement about which aero is best?

He's dissapeared of the radar,not posted anywhere for months.