Discussion
dino ferrana said:
Rod the upgrade package on the 997 is having an effect, Tech 9 were on the podium in race 1 in the dry at Rockingham and would have got there in Race 2 if it was about 2 laps longer. Agree the classes should not be the same as BGT when the cars are totally different and not cars built for the FIA regs. It just confusing for the casual race fan and doesn't really help either championship IMHO.
Well, that's good news, sounds like someone has found a way to make the car competitive, but at what cost??I know Phil at Tech 9 will have put his heart and sole into making the car perform and he is one of only a few that could achieve this, but I say again, at what cost ?? I am told that the up grade kit costs circa £30/35k for starters and I would guess that he has managed a few further tweaks here and there to get to this stage. I think my statement still stands based on buying a standard 997 race car.
The reason they did reasonably well at Rockingham is the 997 is a light car and Rockingham is a twisty circuit so it was suited. The problem still exists that to drive a 997 quickly in GT3 you have to push it very hard which means in turn leaning on its tyres... hard. Widening the front and raising the wing has found a tiny bit of extra speed but it has'nt made the tyres last.
The upgrade kit incidentaly is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesnt mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totaly agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definately for the longer ones.
The upgrade kit incidentaly is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesnt mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totaly agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definately for the longer ones.
Simon Mason said:
The reason they did reasonably well at Rockingham is the 997 is a light car and Rockingham is a twisty circuit so it was suited. The problem still exists that to drive a 997 quickly in GT3 you have to push it very hard which means in turn leaning on its tyres... hard. Widening the front and raising the wing has found a tiny bit of extra speed but it has'nt made the tyres last.
The upgrade kit incidentally is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesn't mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totally agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definitely for the longer ones.
I didn't know about the tyre problem, I heard there were issues but put this down to using Avon's, is it the same with Dunlops? I also heard that there had been a few problems with the sequential boxes.The upgrade kit incidentally is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesn't mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totally agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definitely for the longer ones.
I like the idea of the new class names as it makes it easy to understand. Its also very interesting.....if a car weighs no more than 1090 kgs it can't have anymore power than 400 brake (at the wheels). I wonder where that leaves some of the top class cars from last year???? I guess you could run a completely strangled V8 but at least it does open the options for some other types of cheap engines.
It looks like 2008 could be very busy for the power loggers!!
Cheers,
Richard.
It looks like 2008 could be very busy for the power loggers!!
Cheers,
Richard.
Rod this year's tyres are different to the ones you or any other car raced on in 2006, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the Avons.
The problem the Porsche has one tyres is that it has very small tyres compared to a lot of the other cars. This means it works the rear tyres in particular very hard and if you are already well down on power and brakes to the other cars, then you will tend to drive flat out and cook them.
I have been told (never seen it demonstrated) that a stack of four 997 tyres is a whole tyre less in height than four tyres some of the other machines. That is a whole lot of rubber on the ground that you are trying to make up for!
The problem the Porsche has one tyres is that it has very small tyres compared to a lot of the other cars. This means it works the rear tyres in particular very hard and if you are already well down on power and brakes to the other cars, then you will tend to drive flat out and cook them.
I have been told (never seen it demonstrated) that a stack of four 997 tyres is a whole tyre less in height than four tyres some of the other machines. That is a whole lot of rubber on the ground that you are trying to make up for!
dino ferrana said:
I have been told (never seen it demonstrated) that a stack of four 997 tyres is a whole tyre less in height than four tyres some of the other machines. That is a whole lot of rubber on the ground that you are trying to make up for!
which reminds me of the good old days in the Tuscan Challenge when a stack of Peter Wheeler's tyres did exactly that. Never helped him much.Racing Rod said:
Simon Mason said:
The reason they did reasonably well at Rockingham is the 997 is a light car and Rockingham is a twisty circuit so it was suited. The problem still exists that to drive a 997 quickly in GT3 you have to push it very hard which means in turn leaning on its tyres... hard. Widening the front and raising the wing has found a tiny bit of extra speed but it has'nt made the tyres last.
The upgrade kit incidentally is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesn't mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totally agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definitely for the longer ones.
I didn't know about the tyre problem, I heard there were issues but put this down to using Avon's, is it the same with Dunlops? I also heard that there had been a few problems with the sequential boxes.The upgrade kit incidentally is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesn't mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totally agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definitely for the longer ones.
The gearboxes are fine as far as I know. The only issues encountered that I know off come from lack of experience in using them properly.
Edited by Simon Mason on Tuesday 2nd October 15:19
Simon Mason said:
The gearboxes are fine as far as I know. The only issues encountered that I know off come from lack of experience in using them properly.
[
There have been a fair few reliability issues with the 997 gearboxes and ratios stripping. The 2008 Cup cars will all be supplied with RSR ratios which are twice as beefy as the old style ones.[
Simon Mason said:
Henry-F said:
Well the rules are pretty clear and simple enough to follow. Good names though aren`t they, really shows the relative performance differences between the classes.
Henry
Who says the EERC don't read the forums Henry
It may seem a small point but I actually think it is more significant than some might realise. To me it shows James & the EERC are starting to come of age. The Britcar name most likely evolved from Belcar. The rules a combination of German endurance rules and the Dutch supercar, the classes a mixture of FIA, British GT, some other endurance series & so on. We are now seeing a more confident approach with the EERC starting to take the lead rather than using someone else`s ideas. If it ain`t broken there`s no need to fix it and many of methods put in place by other championships are there for good reason but in this case James is leading the way
Henry
Henry-F said:
Simon Mason said:
Henry-F said:
Well the rules are pretty clear and simple enough to follow. Good names though aren`t they, really shows the relative performance differences between the classes.
Henry
Who says the EERC don't read the forums Henry
It may seem a small point but I actually think it is more significant than some might realise. To me it shows James & the EERC are starting to come of age. The Britcar name most likely evolved from Belcar. The rules a combination of German endurance rules and the Dutch supercar, the classes a mixture of FIA, British GT, some other endurance series & so on. We are now seeing a more confident approach with the EERC starting to take the lead rather than using someone else`s ideas. If it ain`t broken there`s no need to fix it and many of methods put in place by other championships are there for good reason but in this case James is leading the way
Henry
Next year is looking more and more promising by the day and our entry into the 400 Class looks even more likely
like the names idea....
my only reservation is that the two cars I have are nothing close to 1090Kg's!
Elise can be run as low as 700Kg's, ProSport ~750Kg's with ~300 Bhp (potentially for both of them)
that puts the Elise at ~428Bhp/Tonne (or 385Bhp/Tonne with 80Kg's of driver), which leave it exactly where?
edited to add...
Just seem the 'at the wheels' bit.... (must say I HATE this expession!)
300Bhp flywheel with slicks for me = ~250 at the wheels (very dyno dependant...)
that then put's the Elise at 3.12Kg's/Hp
my only reservation is that the two cars I have are nothing close to 1090Kg's!
Elise can be run as low as 700Kg's, ProSport ~750Kg's with ~300 Bhp (potentially for both of them)
that puts the Elise at ~428Bhp/Tonne (or 385Bhp/Tonne with 80Kg's of driver), which leave it exactly where?
edited to add...
Just seem the 'at the wheels' bit.... (must say I HATE this expession!)
300Bhp flywheel with slicks for me = ~250 at the wheels (very dyno dependant...)
that then put's the Elise at 3.12Kg's/Hp
Edited by Scuffers on Tuesday 2nd October 18:20
Very easy, 790kg, 250bhp at the wheels gives 3.16kg / hp. Britcar 300 allows a minimum of 3.7kg / hp, Britcar 400 a minimum of 2.7kg / hp. You`d be in Britcar 400 class.
Your theoretical power at 1090kg would be 344bhp.
Not sure why you seem unhappy with horsepower measured at the wheels implying it`s hard to get an exact figure. Surely power at the wheels is an exact figure as measured. I`d have thought power at the flywheel is the problem one because you are having to try & calculate loss through the drivechain and that`s where the guesswork comes in. The only accurate way to measure flywheel power is on an engine dyno which involves removing the engine from the car first!
The other great thing about power at the wheels is that we don`t all have to rush out & spend £15k on special low loss gearboxes to put as much of our allowed flywheel power through to the wheels.
Henry
Your theoretical power at 1090kg would be 344bhp.
Not sure why you seem unhappy with horsepower measured at the wheels implying it`s hard to get an exact figure. Surely power at the wheels is an exact figure as measured. I`d have thought power at the flywheel is the problem one because you are having to try & calculate loss through the drivechain and that`s where the guesswork comes in. The only accurate way to measure flywheel power is on an engine dyno which involves removing the engine from the car first!
The other great thing about power at the wheels is that we don`t all have to rush out & spend £15k on special low loss gearboxes to put as much of our allowed flywheel power through to the wheels.
Henry
Working on the premise that with the changes that have already been announced, and the general perception that Britcar 2008 is going to be a much improved version of the 2007 season, and that wasn't bad by any means, are we going to be over subscribed for next season? I know of at least 3 teams that would be new to the full series that intend to race in Britcar 2008, and I'm sure there will be others
Should this be the case, what process should be used for securing a grid slot, or should it just be left on a first come, first served basis .
The obvious one would be for a pre commitment to the whole season with a deposit system but with an ability to "sell/re-allocate" your grid slot, via the EERC if for any reason you are unable to race.
Any other idea's?
Should this be the case, what process should be used for securing a grid slot, or should it just be left on a first come, first served basis .
The obvious one would be for a pre commitment to the whole season with a deposit system but with an ability to "sell/re-allocate" your grid slot, via the EERC if for any reason you are unable to race.
Any other idea's?
Yes - run 300 and 400 together in one race, and 200 and 260 together in another race. Run meetings over a weekend and give both a race on each day. More grid slots, the 260 boys can go for outright wins and if James can pull the entries in, more revenue. Better social side too as discussed elsewhere.
Interestingly BRSCC are doing something like this for 2008 - pulling together 5 core championships for their own version of the Powertour weekends. Two day meetings, TV coverage. It is just 20 min sprint races, but BRSCC seem to have taken on board that people want higher profile, weekend long meetings.
Interestingly BRSCC are doing something like this for 2008 - pulling together 5 core championships for their own version of the Powertour weekends. Two day meetings, TV coverage. It is just 20 min sprint races, but BRSCC seem to have taken on board that people want higher profile, weekend long meetings.
On the subject of minimum weights- Power to weight rules always favour the heavier car at a given power to weight if you see what I mean. Just to state the obvious, above 100mph or so then its all about outright power and aerodynamics.
I would not deny that my Exige has a 'healthy' power to weight ratio as Scuffers would acknowldege but there were certain BMW's in production S1 for example that would simply drive away from me down longer straights yet in theory they had inferior Bhp/tonne.
If you look at Lotus in British GT - They haven't a prayer against the more powerful cars!
I would not deny that my Exige has a 'healthy' power to weight ratio as Scuffers would acknowldege but there were certain BMW's in production S1 for example that would simply drive away from me down longer straights yet in theory they had inferior Bhp/tonne.
If you look at Lotus in British GT - They haven't a prayer against the more powerful cars!
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