The FIA's OWG deliver it's results...

[zac510]

I didn't suggest you didn't welcome the changes.
I didn't mean my post to be a personal attack either, I just think you overrate the intelligence of some of the posters that sprout off about knowing the holy grail solutions to 'fixing' F1 because 'nobody' watches it anymore. And in that statement I do not include the F1 engineer or drivers. I mean tv-watching fans only who've probably never picked up a book on aerodynamics. They just seem to repeat what someone else says. Before long, everyone is saying it because it's been repeated so many times that they believe it to be true.

Sorry got carried away there. Just my very cynical view of F1 fandom

[williamp]

I still think they should strap thsir F1 engines onto light, Formula ford chassis and be done with it.

[IforB]

zac510 said:

I didn't suggest you didn't welcome the changes.
I didn't mean my post to be a personal attack either, I just think you overrate the intelligence of some of the posters that sprout off about knowing the holy grail solutions to 'fixing' F1 because 'nobody' watches it anymore. And in that statement I do not include the F1 engineer or drivers. I mean tv-watching fans only who've probably never picked up a book on aerodynamics. They just seem to repeat what someone else says. Before long, everyone is saying it because it's been repeated so many times that they believe it to be true.

Sorry got carried away there. Just my very cynical view of F1 fandom

Some of us know a shed load about aerodynamics, or engines, or even about racing in general. Just because we don't work in F1 doesn't mean we don't have knowledge in relevant fields. A lot of the F1 designers have for many years drawn directly from the aero industry, in fact aircraft design has been far ahead of F1 in terms of material science, packaging as well as aerodynamics for a long time. So don't think that F1 people know it all. For example how long ago were monocoque chassis being used in F1? They were being used on a/c designs back in the 30's and being experimented with even earlier.

It is easy to be cynical, but those of us who have watched F1 or any motorsport would have to be both blind and stupid not to see the deleterious effect that the over-reliance on aero "packages" has on the sport or the even bigger problem caused by the blinkered attitude of the paddock towards the people who ultimately pay for the sport.

[zac510]

There are definitely exceptions to my generalisation and this is by far one of the better forums. Try venturing over the Autosport or ITV forums!! Perhaps I should have disclosed that that is where I developed this bitter and twisted opinion of F1 fans

I didn't suggest that F1 designers know it all either. Every year at least one team proves that to be true!

[motormania]

zac510 said:

you overrate the intelligence of some of the posters that sprout off about knowing the holy grail solutions to 'fixing' F1 because 'nobody' watches it anymore.

I really think you need to read what you post before submitting.

'you overrate the intelligence of some of the posters'

Again a statement that simply does not hold water and one that I HAVE NEVER made on here.

I, like most here on PH like to discuss comments being made, then with our own knowledge decide whether to agree or disagree with the thread in question.

Think before you type ...

Edited by motormania on Tuesday 11th September 14:42

[zac510]

You paraphrased me in both of those quotes..

I didn't mean to insult the other PHers, my apologies.

[ELAN+2]

interesting comments, according to an F1 mechanic/engineer type I had the pleasure of gassing to, herekons reduced down force and slicks is the way to go, this will effectively limit the horse power race as too much power would spin away, The drivers opinion is slightly different, Robert Kubica summed it up with his comments about the banning of TC, he says he wants to keep it as with it he can drive faster than with out it, as a race driver he wants to go as fast as possible all of the time and any "driver aids" that enable this are warmly welcomed.

I think F1s problem is that being "the pinnacle" of motorsport it has to offer something "over" the "lesser" formula and it is expected to offer THE "ultimate" in terms of technological application, sadly this means the cars at the top are very close on performance and difficult to pass...... sadly some one forgot to tell LH of this fact

[ELAN+2]

interesting comments, according to an F1 mechanic/engineer type I had the pleasure of gassing to, herekons reduced down force and slicks is the way to go, this will effectively limit the horse power race as too much power would spin away, The drivers opinion is slightly different, Robert Kubica summed it up with his comments about the banning of TC, he says he wants to keep it as with it he can drive faster than with out it, as a race driver he wants to go as fast as possible all of the time and any "driver aids" that enable this are warmly welcomed.

I think F1s problem is that being "the pinnacle" of motorsport it has to offer something "over" the "lesser" formula and it is expected to offer THE "ultimate" in terms of technological application, sadly this means the cars at the top are very close on performance and difficult to pass...... sadly some one forgot to tell LH of this fact

[IforB]

I read recently about Kubica being one of the drivers who seems to rely most on the driver aids, seemingly he jumps on the throttle hard and lets the electronics work it out. In comparison to other drivers like Button.

That isn't the pinnacle of driving to my eyes. I'm sure his throttle control is a thousand times better than mine, but I would like to see the best drivers out there, not the best manipulators of an electronic control system.

His comments sadden me if a top class driver is willing to let a software engineer do his job for him, what hope is there for the skill of tp level drivers i the future?

Edited by IforB on Tuesday 11th September 15:52

[ELAN+2]

IforB said:

I read recently about Kubica being one of the drivers who seems to rely most on the driver aids, seemingly he jumps on the throttle hard and lets the electronics work it out. In comparison to other drivers like Button.

That isn't the pinnacle of driving to my eyes. I'm sure his throttle control is a thousand times better than mine, but I would like to see the best drivers out there, not the best manipulators of an electronic control system.

His comments sadden me if a top class driver is willing to let a software engineer do his job for him, what hope is there for the skill of tp level drivers i the future?

Edited by IforB on Tuesday 11th September 15:52

I think you missed the point.... he as a driver wants to go as fast as possible and driver aids help this. He didnt say he couldnt drive with out them.Ultimately a machine will be more efficient than a man over a period of time as it can react faster... have you not noticed how the Renaults and FA are slower off the line than last year?Or how the Renaults moved a fraction before the driver released the "launch control" button on the wheel last year? the drivers want to win at all costs and any speed enhancing tweek is a need to have not a luxury.

the incar footage with the revcounter/brake/ tc display is quite interesting, Buttons TC barely cuts in in some corners where Rubens is on for most of the exit.......

[IforB]

No I get where you are coming from, but the world DRIVERS championship should be about who is the most skillful not who has the best electronics.

I couldn't give two hoots if they are quicker with the aids. I want to see a human being manipulating the controls. That's one of the resons that in my day job I find flying an airliner to be dull even though it is moving at around 500kts, whereas I get massive thrills flying something small and manoueverable even though I'm rarely going above 150kts.

What would you rather watch, Red bull air racing or a 737 landing at Heathrow? They're both going at similar speeds, but I know which one gets my blood pumping.

In F1, if they carry on with the drivers aids, then the drivers skills becomes more and more redundant and then we may as well just watch radio-controlled cars. How boring would that be?

Edited by IforB on Tuesday 11th September 16:44

[johnnywb]

Here's an idea; for each race, make the grid up based on the reverse of the previous race finishing order? Might make for good exciting racing as the guy who finished first in the last race starts at the back, might also make for some interesting tactics?

OR

Go the way of the touring cars and add ballast to the cars? The more you win, the more weight you carry?

Would either idea work?

[ELAN+2]

IforB said:

No I get where you are coming from, but the world DRIVERS championship should be about who is the most skillful not who has the best electronics.

I couldn't give two hoots if they are quicker with the aids. I want to see a human being manipulating the controls. That's one of the resons that in my day job I find flying an airliner to be dull even though it is moving at around 500kts, whereas I get massive thrills flying something small and manoueverable even though I'm rarely going above 150kts.

What would you rather watch, Red bull air racing or a 737 landing at Heathrow? They're both going at similar speeds, but I know which one gets my blood pumping.

In F1, if they carry on with the drivers aids, then the drivers skills becomes more and more redundant and then we may as well just watch radio-controlled cars. How boring would that be?

Edited by IforB on Tuesday 11th September 16:44

i agree, it was so much better when you could see the driver fighting the steering on the brakes, applying a bit of oppy locks! sadly safety has seen the end of that.
TC banned from next year, that'll sort the men from the boys a bit.....I hope!!

[ELAN+2]

johnnywb said:

Here's an idea; for each race, make the grid up based on the reverse of the previous race finishing order? Might make for good exciting racing as the guy who finished first in the last race starts at the back, might also make for some interesting tactics?

OR

Go the way of the touring cars and add ballast to the cars? The more you win, the more weight you carry?

Would either idea work?

the reverse grid would be cause carnage !!! If the aero packages were restricted, so the cars could run equally nose to tail, then it would make for an exciting "race", the ballast idea would surely end up with race 2 onwards being a nose to tail procession AKA touring cars? only the odd mistake would allow the order to change I believe? Probably wrong!!

[skinny]

ELAN+2 said:

IforB said:

I read recently about Kubica being one of the drivers who seems to rely most on the driver aids, seemingly he jumps on the throttle hard and lets the electronics work it out. In comparison to other drivers like Button.

That isn't the pinnacle of driving to my eyes. I'm sure his throttle control is a thousand times better than mine, but I would like to see the best drivers out there, not the best manipulators of an electronic control system.

His comments sadden me if a top class driver is willing to let a software engineer do his job for him, what hope is there for the skill of tp level drivers i the future?

Edited by IforB on Tuesday 11th September 15:52

I think you missed the point.... he as a driver wants to go as fast as possible and driver aids help this. He didnt say he couldnt drive with out them.Ultimately a machine will be more efficient than a man over a period of time as it can react faster...

exactly, whilst it's there it will be used because it's faster. don't start to think that the drivers rely on it tho, i'm sure they didn't grow up just planting their foot and letting the electronics sort it all out, they do that cos there's no reason not to. as arguably the best drivers in the world, i don't think throttle control is really going to phase them.

[Eric Mc]

I don't understand why they seem to think making the front wing BIGGER will help overtaking.

I thought that the big barrier to overtaking in current F1 is the inability to run close to the car in front, especially as one enters the braking and turning zone of a bend or corner. With current high dependency on front end downforce, modern F1 cars tend to understeer when following too closely the car in front, so have to back off as they approach a bend or corner. Putting more reliance on front end downforce would only exacerbate this phenomenon - or is there something I'm missing?

[10 Pence Short]

Eric Mc said:

I don't understand why they seem to think making the front wing BIGGER will help overtaking.

I thought that the big barrier to overtaking in current F1 is the inability to run close to the car in front, especially as one enters the braking and turning zone of a bend or corner. With current high dependency on front end downforce, modern F1 cars tend to understeer when following too closely the car in front, so have to back off as they approach a bend or corner. Putting more reliance on front end downforce would only exacerbate this phenomenon - or is there something I'm missing?

Won't a bigger front wing increase front end downforce, which combined with lesser rear wings, will allow drivers to follow more closely?

[Eric Mc]

Only if they have clear air. You can't outbreak someone into a corner when you've had to drop back 50 yards from the car in front before you got to the corner just to ensure you had clean air over your front wing.

If you try to follow someone too closely through a corner with the current front wings, you will just find that you lose all front end grip due to the turbulent air coming off the other car. A bigger front wing wont make much difference as the air will still be too turbulent to make the wing work properly.

I've always thought that REDUCING the front wing - or even getting rid of it altogether - would make following the car in front easier - therby encouraging and enabling closer running - and more overtaking oppertunities.

[deviant]

Slick tyres? I thought that the grooved tyres did not make any difference to the lap times....so what is going back to slicks going to do?

If they want to change things through the tyres used then they should be narrower and with more grooves

[jagnet]

deviant said:

Slick tyres? I thought that the grooved tyres did not make any difference to the lap times....so what is going back to slicks going to do?

If they want to change things through the tyres used then they should be narrower and with more grooves

Using slicks instead of grooved tyres would increase the mechanical grip, reducing the effect of lost downforce from following in the disturbed air from the car in front, and helping the cars stay closer in the corners.

The grooved tyres do make a significant difference to mechanical grip compared with slicks, however the effect when comparing lap times across seasons is lost amongst improvements to the car in other areas.