Is this the end for Kimi?

[Heebeegeetee]

flemke said:

And therefore the only persons whose opinions have any validity are those who have done the precise thing that is under discussion?

No, but I don't think we can split things to the nth degree as though we had a fine appreciation of what it takes. Not unless we've done it.

Look, at the end of the day, 2 drivers went for that corner in Adelaide, and one was in front of the other. The guy in 2nd place sniffed an opportunity and tried to take it. It didn't work but nobody blames him. Schumacher didn't have to look out for the guy behind, it is up to the overtaker to overtake safely. Sometimes though circumstances dictate that a lunge or a dive into a corner or a gap is required, a risk is taken and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. That is how it has always been. The circumstances at that moment in time were of two drivers probably at the highest stress levels of their sporting lives, a culmination of everything they had worked for throughout their lives was about to take place, split-second - literally split second - decisions are taken without any time to weigh up the pros and cons. Its of no use for us to be here at our PCs years later still arguing about the moment, with all the luxury of endless replays and comment ever since. You cannot decry somebody for carrying out a decision taken in the white heat of a very hot moment.

Politicians or car designers or whoever though have all the time in the world to ponder their dastardly or otherwise deeds.

flemke said:

Would you prefer that all people simply worship at the altar of St Michael?

I'd prefer it if people took a more balanced view.

flemke said:

The opinion that you or I form of that incident may be influenced by our prejudices, or, quite possibly, by our values.

When it comes to judging Germans, I think prejudism plays a major part for us. Its a shame, 'cos in my time in the army, as a trucker, and on subsequent trips to the 'Ring, I've always found any Germans I've dealt with to be great people, far nicer than a great many Brits I've come across. Most Brits I hear moaning about Germans or the French or whoever have never met any on a proper basis, and judge solely from predujice. I mean, lets be honest, I bet most of us think that in truth, us Brits are possibly the most arrogant people on the planet - who else do you see bawling and shouting in their own language when abroad? - and so those who describe Schumacher as arrogant are just giving themselves away. Apart from anything else, how do you get to be the best in the world without a hightened sense of self belief? These comments aren't aimed at you Flemke, but I do believe them to be generally true.

flemke said:

If you win motor races by crashing into your strongest competitor and elminating him, your "victory" is meaningless.

You can't win motor races by crashing into your opponents, not many anyway. Also, if you win because your opponents have moved over for you to let you pass, your victory is equally meaningless. If you're the fastest, you should be in front, and if you're not then you're not and you shouldn't expect everyone to just let you win. F1 is tough and so it should be, it'd be bloody boring otherwise. It's not 'after you Claude' and never should be.

[Apache]

My neighbour has worked in F1 for many years and is currently with the Toyota team. He says MS was an absolute gent and was always polite, his little brother however.......

[flemke]

Heebeegeetee said:

Three points of disagreement.

Are we reducing the scope of our differences?

If we continue this way, we may end up agreeing.

[Heebeegeetee]

flemke said:

Heebeegeetee said:

Three points of disagreement.

Are we reducing the scope of our differences?

If we continue this way, we may end up agreeing.

All it'd take is for you to say something like "Schumacher? He was alright really, all things considered."

Go on, you know it makes sense.

[Andy M]

'All right' as in when a competitor is directly beside him?

I was a big fan of Schumi, so I say in jest...

[flemke]

Heebeegeetee said:

flemke said:

Heebeegeetee said:

Three points of disagreement.

Are we reducing the scope of our differences?

If we continue this way, we may end up agreeing.

All it'd take is for you to say something like "Schumacher? He was alright really, all things considered."

Go on, you know it makes sense.

As I alluded above, the judgement that you're seeking probably depends more on one's values than it does on one's prejudices.
I'll just reiterate a part of what I have said about Michael Schumacher on PH many times before: in some areas of his job, he was the all-time best F1 driver.

[TimmyArt]

flemke said:

stephen300o said:

Adelaide, I don't think he ever saw hill.
"Technically I may be champion, but after today I don't deserve it." Who would ever say that? the championship is more than one race.

Who would say it?
A guy who had just caused his own crash into a concrete wall and then, if not deliberately, it could only have been incompetently, drove straight into a competitor, with the very convenient result that he was guaranteed the title.
Check out your motorsports history, my friend. Familiarise yourself with real men such as Collins, Moss, G. Villeneuve and Peterson, to mention but a few. They showed that you didn't need to be incorrigibly, pervasively selfish in order to be a great driver.
That's the pathetic thing about Michael: he would have been even greater with "only" 70 wins and 5 championships in his career, if he had achieved them the right way.

Wellll..... I find it very hard to rate Schumacher as one of the greats. He's in a kind of sub section for morons. People that didn't win with a straight bat. To suggest that he didnt see Hill in Adelaide is a little far fetched and the Monaco incident
Anyhew...

[rubystone]

I'm pretty sure Flemke knows more Germans than we do...

But my opinion on the Adelaide incident?....Had both drivers been more experienced....MS would still have driven into the path of Hill...but Hill would have waited longer before going for the overtake...

At the time I was amazed at how MS had the wherewithal to steer his stricken car into the path of Hill.

Flemke, I wonder whether Lonereanger is in fact a sparring partner of yours from old; your contempt for certain aspects of Ferrari is well known and I just wonder whether "loneranger" is part of a masterplan to discredit you. In fact,I wouldn't be surprised if Coughlan's sworn affidavit reveals this "780 page dossier" to be nothing other than an elaborate plot to bring down the house of Flemke.

All IMHO of course.

[flemke]

rubystone said:

I'm pretty sure Flemke knows more Germans than we do...

But my opinion on the Adelaide incident?....Had both drivers been more experienced....MS would still have driven into the path of Hill...but Hill would have waited longer before going for the overtake...

rubystone said:

At the time I was amazed at how MS had the wherewithal to steer his stricken car into the path of Hill.

The car felt fine to him - he was just taking his normal line.

rubystone said:

Flemke, I wonder whether Lonereanger is in fact a sparring partner of yours from old; your contempt for certain aspects of Ferrari is well known and I just wonder whether "loneranger" is part of a masterplan to discredit you. In fact,I wouldn't be surprised if Coughlan's sworn affidavit reveals this "780 page dossier" to be nothing other than an elaborate plot to bring down the house of Flemke.

It wouldn't be that difficult to bring down the house of Flemke - you'd only have to pull up a few tent pegs.

Do you suppose that this post last night was meant to be the bait?:

loneranger said:

Hey Flemke. I am in Warwickshire. Fancy coming here for a beer?
Or maybe I can come to your part of the world.
A real chat would be nice.

Cosh on the head, drag me to a waiting van...

Then in a few days there is a video clip on the website Half-tenth:

"My name is Flemke, and I want to confess that all the bad things that I ever said about Ferrari and Michael Schumacher were lies and delusions. I was brainwashed by the wicked people in British motorsports, especially by the manipulative control freaks at McLaren, and I didn't know what I was saying. Now that my mind has been cleansed, at last I understand.
The people holding me are treating me well. I am allowed to watch television, and I have grown to love RAI. The scungilli they feed me is delicious, and I can't get enough of the red walls, floor and ceiling of my room. I love red.
I would like to appeal to all motorsports and automobile fans around the world. If you don't understand why Ferrari are special, think again. Recognise the greatness. Be humble before the magnificence.
Feel the Ferrari passion. As I have discovered, it is never too late.
Forza!"

[rubystone]

flemke said:

"My name is Flemke, and I want to confess that all the bad things that I ever said about Ferrari and Michael Schumacher were lies and delusions. I was brainwashed by the wicked people in British motorsports, especially by the manipulative control freaks at McLaren, and I didn't know what I was saying. Now that my mind has been cleansed, at last I understand.
The people holding me are treating me well. I am allowed to watch television, and I have grown to love RAI. The scungilli they feed me is delicious, and I can't get enough of the red walls, floor and ceiling of my room. I love red.
I would like to appeal to all motorsports and automobile fans around the world. If you don't understand why Ferrari are special, think again. Recognise the greatness. Be humble before the magnificence.
Feel the Ferrari passion. As I have discovered, it is never too late.
Forza!"

[stephen300o]

Just trying to keep things on a lighter note, I don't think the sun shines out of Ferrari's collective arse's but neither do I think their some sort of cartoon bad guy's out to get everybody,
hey can't we all just get along

[AKA8]

Do you suppose that this post last night was meant to be the bait?:

loneranger said:

Hey Flemke. I am in Warwickshire. Fancy coming here for a beer?
Or maybe I can come to your part of the world.
A real chat would be nice.

Cosh on the head, drag me to a waiting van...

Then in a few days there is a video clip on the website Half-tenth:

"My name is Flemke, and I want to confess that all the bad things that I ever said about Ferrari and Michael Schumacher were lies and delusions. I was brainwashed by the wicked people in British motorsports, especially by the manipulative control freaks at McLaren, and I didn't know what I was saying. Now that my mind has been cleansed, at last I understand.
The people holding me are treating me well. I am allowed to watch television, and I have grown to love RAI. The scungilli they feed me is delicious, and I can't get enough of the red walls, floor and ceiling of my room. I love red.
I would like to appeal to all motorsports and automobile fans around the world. If you don't understand why Ferrari are special, think again. Recognise the greatness. Be humble before the magnificence.
Feel the Ferrari passion. As I have discovered, it is never too late.
Forza!"

[AKA8]

LR, you make yourself sound like something from Deliverance

[CiderwithCerbie]

Apache said:

My neighbour has worked in F1 for many years and is currently with the Toyota team. He says MS was an absolute gent and was always polite.......

That's not what Jock Clear said to me.......... [CLUNG!!!, sorry couldn't find a bigger name to drop]

Actually he might well have been a 'real polite Gent' in the pits, but that's not what we have been talking about.
As far as I am concerned the fact that MS always generates this kind of debate among F1 fans tells us that he will never be regarded as an 'undisputed great'
QED.

[Heebeegeetee]

CiderwithCerbie said:

Apache said:

My neighbour has worked in F1 for many years and is currently with the Toyota team. He says MS was an absolute gent and was always polite.......

That's not what Jock Clear said to me.......... [CLUNG!!!, sorry couldn't find a bigger name to drop]

Actually he might well have been a 'real polite Gent' in the pits, but that's not what we have been talking about.
As far as I am concerned the fact that MS always generates this kind of debate among F1 fans tells us that he will never be regarded as an 'undisputed great'
QED.

Well, I can remember what Jock Clear told us about Hakinnen...

But at the end of the day, are we watching sport or a soap? What do we want out of our heroes? Do we want them to perform some sort of surrogate role for us?

Personally, I like winners, 'cos if they're not winning they're making excuses.

I can get all the excuses I need in my daily life.

[Heebeegeetee]

Oh, and I can remember when Mr Clear was telling us about the cheating they were doing at Williams...

[flemke]

Heebeegeetee said:

Oh, and I can remember when Mr Clear was telling us about the cheating they were doing at Williams...

and therefore...?

[Heebeegeetee]

flemke said:

Heebeegeetee said:

Oh, and I can remember when Mr Clear was telling us about the cheating they were doing at Williams...

and therefore...?

What?

PS. Flemke, as a follower of the sport, you'll be familiar with the widespread cheating that went on throughout the sport as it was growing up, particularly in the sixties and seventies.

You know, all the wheezes to circumvent the regs, water cooled brakes, heavy engine covers and body panels, adjustable ride heights and so on. What was your take on those?

(Forgive me if we discussed it before, I can't remember if we did right now).

Who would you say was the worse in your view, Michael Schumacher or Colin Chapman?

[flemke]

Heebeegeetee said:

flemke said:

Heebeegeetee said:

Oh, and I can remember when Mr Clear was telling us about the cheating they were doing at Williams...

and therefore...?

What?

PS. Flemke, as a follower of the sport, you'll be familiar with the widespread cheating that went on throughout the sport as it was growing up, particularly in the sixties and seventies.

You know, all the wheezes to circumvent the regs, water cooled brakes, heavy engine covers and body panels, adjustable ride heights and so on. What was your take on those?

(Forgive me if we discussed it before, I can't remember if we did right now).

Who would you say was the worse in your view, Michael Schumacher or Colin Chapman?

I'm no particular fan of Colin Chapman's. I am a fan of Smokey Yunick's, however, and he bent the rules as much as he could do.

I'm not sure how much rule interpretation by competing teams is "acceptable" in the ethical sense - that is a personal thing.
I am sure that it is not ethical for the regulator to favour one team at the expense of the others, and we know that that has happened. Big style (as a famous man once said).


Truly by coincidence, today I was reading an interview with Jackie Oliver and came upon this:

"Formula 1 is a business, very tough, very political and when a small team looks like it might challenge the grandees, in particular Ferrari, someone's going to get after you, try to push you back down. Every time we (Arrows) came up with something, started to show real speed, then the rules would change or there would be some other interference from the big boys by poaching key staff or drivers. Or the politicians would get involved...
"At Imola we were right on the pace. But then Senna and Ratzenberger were killed and the FIA decided on radical changes, all of which benefited the bigger teams, especially Ferrari. Funny how Ferrari always seems to come out on top..."


This is the crap that ruins "sport".

[alman]

Kimi sleeps with the light on, not because he's scared of the dark; because the dark is scared of him