The facts...McLaren/Ferrrari/FIA

[LongQ]

Heebeegeetee said:

If he doesn't fight, the rest of the world will assume him guilty, and that will be the position forever. Ron can afford to do it, and while he's doing it it'd be a continual distraction to ferrari so might reap some other benefits. Ron could leave the running of the team to someone else and persue todt through the courts. Thats if Todt has anything to answer to.

But as an article on pitpass points out the affair will still be going through courts in England and Italy with Coughlan and Stepney in the spotlight. Unless some sort of deal is done first.

Legal process generally take some time. RD may be best served best by waiting for now.

[uriel]

Heebeegeetee said:

Well thats fine and he can do so. But I don't know how he can sleep having had his reputation dragged through the courts and traduced, but thats up to him. He doesn't need to keep winning races for a year or two, in fact I'm sure he could step aside to a degree and let the team run itself which I'm sure it would do very well.

Todt can sleep fine 'cos he's won and there is no official stain on his character.

I see it the opposite way to you. IMO a man can sleep soundly or look himself in the mirror without shame when he himself knows that he's acted with principle and integrity, regardless of what the courts, the FIA, the sport or the world population think. From your posts you seem to value public perception above self-respect.

They way I see it, Ron can be disgraced by the FIA, be branded a cheat by the press and have F1 fans heckle and jeer at him for bringing their sport into disrepute yet sleep soundly because he knows he's a straight up bloke, did everything right and has nothing to be ashamed of. Conversely, Todt can be given the title, the trophy, the blessings of the FIA, the fans and the press, but at night, I would say he should be the one lying awake with shame, knowing that it's all a farce, he isn't deserving of any of these accolades and that he's traded his honour for the sake of another trophy.

[rubystone]

Heebeegeetee said:

I think what has happened to Ron and McLaren is disasturous, but they have no option but to fight, no option at all. Any other action is an admission of guilt.

But they are "guilty" of the Stepney/Coughlan information having penetrated the organisation to a greater degree than the level on which the WMSC based its original decision.

Their only option would be to pursue this through the civil courts, where the weight of the evidence might not be enough to "convict" them. FWIW I do happen to believe that RD has elected not to appeal ENTIRELY on sporting grounds and not on financial grounds and that the sport and the public beyond that appreciate him for taking that stance.

[DBSV8]

Have never been an advocate for Corporate Mclaren ,

Enjoyed the battle between team mates through the years Lauda / Watson
Senna / Prost and appreciated that the drivers are allowed to Race,
Excluding Ron Dennis's fixation for all things Finnish aka drivers , Hakkinen / Raikinen which was just plain odd and keeping Coulthard for so long ?
And now with adopted son /"yes man" Hamilton......

Sorry haven’t warmed to the Hamilton Hype ……….maybe when he matures as an individual not a spoilt brat !!

However the subsequent interview at last Sundays grand prix following the imposed fine , showed Ron Dennis in a stronger light and changed my opinion.
Ron came across with dignity, integrity and genuine Temerity to put the episode behind them and get back to racing.
No pointing fingers just determination to have fair play and equality within the team and considering Alonso’ involvement in the drama and their relationship at an all time low , it was surprising that Alonso was allowed to race equally ( without mechanical breakdown cynical mode !!)
Cant help feeling if it had been with Williams or Renault , Flavio or Patrick Head would have had a very different approach to one of its drivers.

The Hamilton/ Alonso battle will be interesting to follow , now the bullshit / honeymoon is over we can start to see some epic battles between these two , Great to See Alonso fighting back and gave Hamilton a wake up call

[ph123]

As I said somewhere else on this board, I wouldn't want any unreliability issues to strike anyone at McLaren right now ... !

[LongQ]

DBSV8 said:

Sorry haven’t warmed to the Hamilton Hype ……….maybe when he matures as an individual not a spoilt brat !!

Interesting. I have wondered how far into the season we might get before seeing the Hamilton facade break of its own volition.

DBSV8 said:

The Hamilton/ Alonso battle will be interesting to follow , now the bullshit / honeymoon is over we can start to see some epic battles between these two , Great to See Alonso fighting back and gave Hamilton a wake up call

If you are anticipating epic battles that suggests you think Hamilton has already matured enough, as a driver, to challenge Alonso's 5/6 year career and 2 world championships. As to the "wakeup call", an overworked phrase I fear, it seems that Alonso picked up much more of Mr. Schumacher's skill than may have been evident to date. (Although he still seems to have more problems at first corners than might be expected of someone so experienced.) I expect he has now learned how to pick his employer more carefully as well in order to ensure number one status unchallenged but still have someone protecting points behind him.

[flemke]

rubystone said:

But they are "guilty" of the Stepney/Coughlan information having penetrated the organisation to a greater degree than the level on which the WMSC based its original decision.

It was revealing yesterday when Mosley uncharacteristically scored an own goal.

As you say, the major new evidence at the second hearing was that PdlR and FA were aware of the contact with Stepney and had discussed between themselves and with MC things which they imagined might be valuable.
Yesterday Mosley said that McLaren had been lucky not to have been penalised even more harshly, blah, blah...and that they would have received their draconian punishment even without the revelation that the PdlR and FA had been involved.

Isn't that the same thing as saying that the appeal/second hearing was always going to be a sham, the outcome of which had been planned much earlier? If the 180 degree change in the penalty was not affected by the drivers' involvement, what else had changed so substantially?

[LongQ]

flemke said:

If the 180 degree change in the penalty was not affected by the drivers' involvement, what else had changed so substantially?

Only Ferrari's apparent ability to prise evidence from the Italian police about the perceived level of contact between Coughlan and Stepney?


Edit to add:

Which then begs the question about why these matters were not a key part of the second proceedings, at least so far as the transcripts report.

Perhaps they should have made the closed door sessions public as well.

Edited by LongQ on Wednesday 26th September 11:52

[tank slapper]

LongQ said:

flemke said:

If the 180 degree change in the penalty was not affected by the drivers' involvement, what else had changed so substantially?

Only Ferrari's apparent ability to prise evidence from the Italian police about the perceived level of contact between Coughlan and Stepney?

That only shows there was contact between the two, which we knew already. It does not show that there was any use or distribution of information by McLaren. The second hearing was a joke - the decision was based on the supposition that McLaren must have used the data because Stepney and Coughlan, regardless that there is no evidence to show that is the case.

[tank slapper]

LongQ said:

Which then begs the question about why these matters were not a key part of the second proceedings, at least so far as the transcripts report.

The only reasonable explanation for it is that the second hearing was never intended to examine the facts, but rather as a vehicle to allow the imposition of a previously decided penalty.

[flemke]

tank slapper said:

LongQ said:

flemke said:

If the 180 degree change in the penalty was not affected by the drivers' involvement, what else had changed so substantially?

Only Ferrari's apparent ability to prise evidence from the Italian police about the perceived level of contact between Coughlan and Stepney?

That only shows there was contact between the two, which we knew already. It does not show that there was any use or distribution of information by McLaren. The second hearing was a joke - the decision was based on the supposition that McLaren must have used the data because Stepney and Coughlan, regardless that there is no evidence to show that is the case.

Many of us were astonished that, in the first hearing, the WMSC handed out no penalty at all. At the same time, their verdict went overboard to emphasise that any new evidence could potentially result in the harshest of penalties.
IIRC, this was on a Thursday evening. On the following Tuesday, effectively after only two business days had passed, "Macaluso" (aka Ferrari) wrote to Mosley claiming new evidence. Mosley immediately agreed to grant an appeal.

Why is that sequence and timing of events not quite believable?

Just the natural course of events - honest!

[RobbieMeister]

With regard to the appeal, I think RD said he would only appeal the fine. He also said that he would only appeal if he thought that the media, public and his partners indicated that they truly felt McLaren were guilty.

I think that with so much support from the media and the public he feels that the only people who's mind he is going to change is MM and the oiks at Ferrari - and there aint much chance of that.

I once read a quote the meaning of which only partially came through to me.

Now I think I get it!

"Live never to be ashamed if anything you do or say is published around the world - even if what is published is not true"

Edited by RobbieMeister on Wednesday 26th September 12:17

[tank slapper]

flemke said:

Many of us were astonished that, in the first hearing, the WMSC handed out no penalty at all. At the same time, their verdict went overboard to emphasise that any new evidence could potentially result in the harshest of penalties.
IIRC, this was on a Thursday evening. On the following Tuesday, effectively after only two business days had passed, "Macaluso" (aka Ferrari) wrote to Mosley claiming new evidence. Mosley immediately agreed to grant an appeal.

Why is that sequence and timing of events not quite believable?

Just the natural course of events - honest!

My take is that Mosely wanted to give a punishment at the first hearing, but couldn't justify it with the evidence he had. Along comes the merest whiff of further evidence and he jumps on it as soon as possible, in order that he can do what he wanted the first time - this would fit with the extremely limited time available for the hearing and for McLaren to prepare their defence, so that the somewhat weak information didn't get examined too closely.

The only sensible explanation is that there wasn't supposed to be a fair and proper hearing.

[andyps]

RobbieMeister said:

I once read a quote the meaning of which only partially came through to me.

Now I think I get it!

"Live never to be ashamed if anything you do or say is published around the world - even if what is published is not true"

Thanks for that - great quote, you don't know who said it do you by any chance?

[flemke]

tank slapper said:

flemke said:

Many of us were astonished that, in the first hearing, the WMSC handed out no penalty at all. At the same time, their verdict went overboard to emphasise that any new evidence could potentially result in the harshest of penalties.
IIRC, this was on a Thursday evening. On the following Tuesday, effectively after only two business days had passed, "Macaluso" (aka Ferrari) wrote to Mosley claiming new evidence. Mosley immediately agreed to grant an appeal.

Why is that sequence and timing of events not quite believable?

Just the natural course of events - honest!

My take is that Mosely wanted to give a punishment at the first hearing, but couldn't justify it with the evidence he had. Along comes the merest whiff of further evidence and he jumps on it as soon as possible, in order that he can do what he wanted the first time - this would fit with the extremely limited time available for the hearing and for McLaren to prepare their defence, so that the somewhat weak information didn't get examined too closely.

The only sensible explanation is that there wasn't supposed to be a fair and proper hearing.

The thing is, the first WMSC verdict on guilt and punishment was unanimous.
Unless they deliberately obfuscated the position, it is hard to explain how Mosley would have genuinely voted for "no punishment" the first time, yet a few days later was preparing the noose.

[anonymous-user]

andyps said:

RobbieMeister said:

I once read a quote the meaning of which only partially came through to me.

Now I think I get it!

"Live never to be ashamed if anything you do or say is published around the world - even if what is published is not true"

Thanks for that - great quote, you don't know who said it do you by any chance?

Apparently, Richard Bach

[skinny]

something i've just seen has really highlighted how the FIA propose to govern around IP rights.

watching the pitstop practises in fuji just now, and toyota have exactly the same wheel covers as ferrari, the little ring on the rears and the non-moving cover on the front with the bottom rear cut away. i'm guessing it's a ferrari design tho? this could all get very confusing now, following the row...

[10 Pence Short]

You forget- Toyota were found with their hands in the till with regards to Ferrari IP. But don't worry, Toyota aren't stealing points from Ferrari, so the FIA aren't interested.

Come on, everyone knows the rules (assuming 'everyone' is son-of-a-nazi, failed racing team owner, lawyer and general tosser, Max Mosley).

[anonymous-user]

There is nothing IP about the wheel covers, it's no different from the wings as it's in view.

[Joe911]

johnfelstead said:

There is nothing IP about the wheel covers, it's no different from the wings as it's in view.

Just because it is in view does not mean there is no IP.