BTCC Snetterton....official thread n stuff.
Discussion
ian_c_uk said:
Race 3:
Jason Plato was penalised by the addition of a cumulative 15-seconds to his overall race time for incidents involving Chris Smiley and Ash Sutton
Plato is still adamant that the headbutts on Smiley and Sutton were rubbing! His fans are an interesting, blinkered bunch too! Jason Plato was penalised by the addition of a cumulative 15-seconds to his overall race time for incidents involving Chris Smiley and Ash Sutton
I think Sutton latter trying to pass around the outside a few times was too optimistic, and not going to work. But a driver like JP should have done better in that 3 wide move, he was well out of control...
h There was a really interesting interview with Matt Neal after the last weekend on Tintop Tuesday. Of course it was about the Hill incident and the general clumsy standard of driving in the BTCC field but the quote that stood out for me was "One of the only drivers out there I trust is Jason. I know that if he hits me, he damn well meant to hit me".
Some really dirty moves from Plato in race 3, but always in control and he knew exactly how far to push Sutton so he would lose his rag and do something stupid.
Some really dirty moves from Plato in race 3, but always in control and he knew exactly how far to push Sutton so he would lose his rag and do something stupid.
DanielSan said:
It should be up to the other teams to do a better job not peg back the team who are doing a good job.
That's exactly what killed the Super Touring era though. If it weren't for the parity rules, BMW would turn up (don't kid me that this isn't a full BMW works team) with an enormous budget and wipe the floor with everyone else. It then just turns into a chequebook contest and you end up with 3 teams and a field of maybe 9 cars at best.stevemcs said:
I might be on my own but ..... I don't think Plato can be held completely responsible for Sutton being turned around, he was in the middle and didn't really have anywhere to go.
You’re not aloneI’m no Plato fan, BUT apart from the nudge going into the hairpin, which was a bit naughty, but no less than what others do, it was a masterclass of defensive driving from Jason. It was Sutton’s choice to place his car on the outside line multiple times, Jason knew it and placed his car where Sutton wanted to be.
The 3 wide incident with Butcher was one of those things, Ash probably didn’t realise butcher was up the inside, Jason couldn’t move In because of Butcher and so ash had nowhere to go, and Jason couldn’t just disappear.
Jason probably deserved his 15 second penalty, but I understand his frustration on Twitter that others haven’t been penalised, especially when they made the same bump and run manoeuvres.
agent006 said:
That's exactly what killed the Super Touring era though. If it weren't for the parity rules, BMW would turn up (don't kid me that this isn't a full BMW works team) with an enormous budget and wipe the floor with everyone else. It then just turns into a chequebook contest and you end up with 3 teams and a field of maybe 9 cars at best.
It's as much of a works time as Dynamics are, they're not throwing massive money at it, there's no point when every car has the same subframes, suspension, tyres, brakes etc. It's not even like they were able to go and do unlimited testing with this enormous pile of cash they've supposedly got. They could spend millions developing the engine but again there's no point, if they're too far ahead they get pegged back anyway, or the rest of the field get a boost increase and around 30bhp more as a result of them not doing a good enough job to be fast. The cash pile isn't even big enough to field 3 cars, Jordan's Pirtek sponsorship and his smaller sponsors put his car on the grid with no cash input from BMW. He's a customer of WSR paying for them to run the car and paying for all the consumables and testing same as any other driver. The Pirtek cash just allows him to get a drive with a better team that demands more cash for their services. Oliphant and Turkington both bring cash also.
Given that Sutton was Plato's team mate for a few seasons in the Subaru he knows exactly how Jason drives in those situations, so surely should have expected the odd tap and known that positioning himself on the outside of that corner meant that it was highly likely he was going to end up being the car, out of all 3 going into the corner, that lost out?
Besides, from the footage being shown on ITV4, Sutton was also giving the odd tap / quarter panel rub here and there when he was attempting to pass / re-pass Plato.
Given the rather different reactions of both drivers (one more seasoned and clearly knowing what to say - the other basically saying the team wanted him penalty pointed up and excluded from further races, etc), when interviewed by Louise, i think it's fair to say a lot of the fallout from Sunday still relates to the ongoing BMR / Warren Scott / Plato saga. It's fairly obvious that BMR would have loved to have finished that final race by winning / beating Plato (in his new car / team) and then sticking 2 fingers up at him to say "haha we beat you" (or something possibly a little ruder
) and you know full well that Jason being the competitor he is, was doing everything on track to ensure that he could beat BMR and say something similar to them.
At least the 3rd race still ended with a decent podium for Butcher & BTC Norlin. Nice for Butcher to actually be able to celebrate the win there & then. Not a bad weekend overall for Ollie - certainly saw a fair bit more of his car on TV than we usually do
Roll on Thruxton (Visit 2)
Besides, from the footage being shown on ITV4, Sutton was also giving the odd tap / quarter panel rub here and there when he was attempting to pass / re-pass Plato.
Given the rather different reactions of both drivers (one more seasoned and clearly knowing what to say - the other basically saying the team wanted him penalty pointed up and excluded from further races, etc), when interviewed by Louise, i think it's fair to say a lot of the fallout from Sunday still relates to the ongoing BMR / Warren Scott / Plato saga. It's fairly obvious that BMR would have loved to have finished that final race by winning / beating Plato (in his new car / team) and then sticking 2 fingers up at him to say "haha we beat you" (or something possibly a little ruder
) and you know full well that Jason being the competitor he is, was doing everything on track to ensure that he could beat BMR and say something similar to them.At least the 3rd race still ended with a decent podium for Butcher & BTC Norlin. Nice for Butcher to actually be able to celebrate the win there & then. Not a bad weekend overall for Ollie - certainly saw a fair bit more of his car on TV than we usually do
Roll on Thruxton (Visit 2)
That must be Wookie's strongest BTCC weekend overall, especially with the bonus promotion to P7 in race 3. Great to see!
Perhaps it's because I watch a lot of endurance/GT racing but I struggle to understand why everyone gets so worked up about the performance fiddling Gow does. This series exists for its bums-on-seats entertainment value. As someone else said, if it goes back to chequebook racing interest will die off again.
The beemers are still going to win. Just enjoy the show!
Perhaps it's because I watch a lot of endurance/GT racing but I struggle to understand why everyone gets so worked up about the performance fiddling Gow does. This series exists for its bums-on-seats entertainment value. As someone else said, if it goes back to chequebook racing interest will die off again.
The beemers are still going to win. Just enjoy the show!
Allyc85 said:
Plato is still adamant that the headbutts on Smiley and Sutton were rubbing! His fans are an interesting, blinkered bunch too!
I think Sutton latter trying to pass around the outside a few times was too optimistic, and not going to work. But a driver like JP should have done better in that 3 wide move, he was well out of control...
From what I've seen of other races, I've seen far more obvious 'push to pass' moves than the one on smiley, on board you could barely even tell there was contact, 1st lap bunch up on a hair pin, I can see why he'd be annoyed. I think Sutton latter trying to pass around the outside a few times was too optimistic, and not going to work. But a driver like JP should have done better in that 3 wide move, he was well out of control...
The move on Sutton after he was passed, as said previous to me looked pretty obvious he was gunna get in trouble for that.
I think any annoyance would come from the fact some get penalties and some don't, and personally I wouldn't want every single incident penalised, it's close racing, its touring cars, yiu expect a certain amount of contact that you won't get in the likes of f1.
By the time your 3 abreast, after the bumping down at the hairpin, he looks to have braked a little late, wookie might have a better idea but I imagine we are talking less than a seconds difference between breaking points, different speed to normal as he was roughed up at the hairpin, fueled with adrenaline, a car changing every single lap,theblist goes on.
I personally want to see people fighting for every position, if I want a parade I'll watch f1, I know many may disagree because it lowers the standard of driving but its great to watch.
Same as some of the support racing, driving standards may not be the greats but you do get some great battles going on!
For me, the issue is that BTCC has normalised contact for so long that enforcement of these penalties will always upset the large group of punters that turn up mostly for the drama/carnage.
I believe MSUK has a new directive for this year which seems to call for most instances of contact to be investigated. It is certainly resulting in more time spent in the stweards office at clubman level.
I believe MSUK has a new directive for this year which seems to call for most instances of contact to be investigated. It is certainly resulting in more time spent in the stweards office at clubman level.
Rib said:
By the time your 3 abreast, after the bumping down at the hairpin, he looks to have braked a little late, wookie might have a better idea but I imagine we are talking less than a seconds difference between breaking points, different speed to normal as he was roughed up at the hairpin, fueled with adrenaline, a car changing every single lap,theblist goes on.
I haven't seen the video yet but I have seen the photos, it's a brave place to make a pass and an easy place to get fired off by someone getting it wrong. Three into one your best position is actually likely to be third going into the corner so you can bide your time and force the other two into an awkward approach and then a mistake so they'll lose speed or take eachother off so you can drive past one or both on the exit
Also it's much less than a second's difference, probably a maximum of 0.2 or 0.3 difference between all of the cars in the grid. My engineer was moaning at me for being 5m earlier than Tom in FP2, I can't be bothered to work out what length of time that is at 150mph but it's definitely minimal!!
I don't understand where this idea has come from, that if someone is on the outside round a corner, then it's completely fair game to drive into them and/or force them off the track? It seems to be becoming more and more prevalent across racing at all levels.
If there's less than half a cars overlap, then fair enough it should be up to the car that's behind to pull out of the move to prevent contact. But in the case with Sutton and Plato, Sutton had got round the outside and his nose was actually ahead before the contact. That's entirely Plato's fault in my opinion. If the contact from Plato was accidental as a result of out braking himself and understeering, then he's no less deserving of a penalty for it as it was obvious before the corner that Sutton was going to be coming round the outside.
If there's less than half a cars overlap, then fair enough it should be up to the car that's behind to pull out of the move to prevent contact. But in the case with Sutton and Plato, Sutton had got round the outside and his nose was actually ahead before the contact. That's entirely Plato's fault in my opinion. If the contact from Plato was accidental as a result of out braking himself and understeering, then he's no less deserving of a penalty for it as it was obvious before the corner that Sutton was going to be coming round the outside.
clubracing said:
I don't understand where this idea has come from, that if someone is on the outside round a corner, then it's completely fair game to drive into them and/or force them off the track? It seems to be becoming more and more prevalent across racing at all levels.
If there's less than half a cars overlap, then fair enough it should be up to the car that's behind to pull out of the move to prevent contact. But in the case with Sutton and Plato, Sutton had got round the outside and his nose was actually ahead before the contact. That's entirely Plato's fault in my opinion. If the contact from Plato was accidental as a result of out braking himself and understeering, then he's no less deserving of a penalty for it as it was obvious before the corner that Sutton was going to be coming round the outside.
Came here to say this. We'd not get away with it in our (club) racing, so I don't see why the professionals are given a free pass to punt someone off. If there's less than half a cars overlap, then fair enough it should be up to the car that's behind to pull out of the move to prevent contact. But in the case with Sutton and Plato, Sutton had got round the outside and his nose was actually ahead before the contact. That's entirely Plato's fault in my opinion. If the contact from Plato was accidental as a result of out braking himself and understeering, then he's no less deserving of a penalty for it as it was obvious before the corner that Sutton was going to be coming round the outside.
clubracing said:
I don't understand where this idea has come from, that if someone is on the outside round a corner, then it's completely fair game to drive into them and/or force them off the track? It seems to be becoming more and more prevalent across racing at all levels.
If there's less than half a cars overlap, then fair enough it should be up to the car that's behind to pull out of the move to prevent contact. But in the case with Sutton and Plato, Sutton had got round the outside and his nose was actually ahead before the contact. That's entirely Plato's fault in my opinion. If the contact from Plato was accidental as a result of out braking himself and understeering, then he's no less deserving of a penalty for it as it was obvious before the corner that Sutton was going to be coming round the outside.
Don't agree..... The guy on the outside has a choice, he can allow himself to be squeezed out onto the grass, or he decide to live another day and back off. Sutton should have backed off. He must have known he would get squeezed out, but by this time he's just pissed off and basically wanted the accident. If there's less than half a cars overlap, then fair enough it should be up to the car that's behind to pull out of the move to prevent contact. But in the case with Sutton and Plato, Sutton had got round the outside and his nose was actually ahead before the contact. That's entirely Plato's fault in my opinion. If the contact from Plato was accidental as a result of out braking himself and understeering, then he's no less deserving of a penalty for it as it was obvious before the corner that Sutton was going to be coming round the outside.
The guy on the inside,Butcher is in the best place, he's got 2 cars on the outside of hime to squeeze against, Plato made the corner. The only one who didn't was the one who thought everyone should give way to him.
I've gone into the corner 3 abreast in a Caterham race on the outside. I backed off, left the two on the inside to trip over themselves and got a podium out of it.
Watch the F1 at Hungary on the same day, Turn 3, the car on the outside can get around the car on the inside, sometimes, with a tyre advantage, but there's also plenty of scenarios whereby the guy on the outside is squeezed out and can again take to the rough and it's inherent risks, or can back off and have another go later.
Sutton wanted too stick one over Plato and was always going to have a good whinge if it didn't work and go crying to the stewards..... 3 lots of paperwork apparently for each whinge.
I saw the race live but there’s so much going on it’s easy to miss stuff, having watched this earlier today though I actually lost count of the times Plato tried to run Sutton off the track
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=41s&v=I6uXfutlHm...
It was pretty ironic that Tim Harvey hadn’t even finished saying “well done to Jason for not shoving him off” before he shoved him off
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=41s&v=I6uXfutlHm...
It was pretty ironic that Tim Harvey hadn’t even finished saying “well done to Jason for not shoving him off” before he shoved him off
super7 said:
Don't agree..... The guy on the outside has a choice, he can allow himself to be squeezed out onto the grass, or he decide to live another day and back off. Sutton should have backed off. He must have known he would get squeezed out, but by this time he's just pissed off and basically wanted the accident.
The guy on the inside,Butcher is in the best place, he's got 2 cars on the outside of hime to squeeze against, Plato made the corner. The only one who didn't was the one who thought everyone should give way to him.
I've gone into the corner 3 abreast in a Caterham race on the outside. I backed off, left the two on the inside to trip over themselves and got a podium out of it.
Watch the F1 at Hungary on the same day, Turn 3, the car on the outside can get around the car on the inside, sometimes, with a tyre advantage, but there's also plenty of scenarios whereby the guy on the outside is squeezed out and can again take to the rough and it's inherent risks, or can back off and have another go later.
Sutton wanted too stick one over Plato and was always going to have a good whinge if it didn't work and go crying to the stewards..... 3 lots of paperwork apparently for each whinge.
That's exactly my point then. You think that driving into the car on the outside and making contact to force them off the circuit is acceptable, despite the blue book saying 'crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track is strictly prohibited'.The guy on the inside,Butcher is in the best place, he's got 2 cars on the outside of hime to squeeze against, Plato made the corner. The only one who didn't was the one who thought everyone should give way to him.
I've gone into the corner 3 abreast in a Caterham race on the outside. I backed off, left the two on the inside to trip over themselves and got a podium out of it.
Watch the F1 at Hungary on the same day, Turn 3, the car on the outside can get around the car on the inside, sometimes, with a tyre advantage, but there's also plenty of scenarios whereby the guy on the outside is squeezed out and can again take to the rough and it's inherent risks, or can back off and have another go later.
Sutton wanted too stick one over Plato and was always going to have a good whinge if it didn't work and go crying to the stewards..... 3 lots of paperwork apparently for each whinge.
Leaving a gap of exactly a cars width to the edge of the circuit and nothing more is allowed, but you can't just drive into them to force them off
I don't know the exact details of the F1 driving standards regs, but based on what we see on TV it does seem to be allowed sometimes in F1 at least, though I don't think it should be. Up to a point the leading car should be free to take their chosen line, but if the cars are fully alongside each other or have a significant overlap, then the car on the inside shouldn't be allowed to just drive into the other. That sort of thing should be restricted to short oval stock cars.
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