What would the guy in 2nd place in Brazil do?

[flemke]

Galileo said:

flemke said:

Galileo said:

To answer the question, I think that there isn't a Racer on the planet that would concede second place to anybody for any reason, except team orders etc.
Being in a position to maybe win, if the guy in front has trouble? I wouldn't move over even if Jesus Christ himself were behind me. Letting someone beat you means your not a racer and would never have been able to work your way to the top.

I'll accept the proposition that, in order to have reached the level of F1 driver, it helps to have had one or two personality defects, but I think you'll find that the actual individuals are not one-dimensional robots who are incapable of having more than a single motivation.

I take it you've never raced?

Then you take it wrong.

Galileo said:

Name one driver on the grid that you think would hold Hamilton's title chances above a potential race win. Any driver looking maybe to curry favour with Ron for next year? What do you think Ron would think of him. I think he would go down in Ron's estimation as a potential winner and champion. Moving over for Hamilton would do damage to a drivers reputation. And they would know that. So if anything I think anybody in second place would drive the race of their lives to stay in front of Hamilton to show the world how good they are.

I won't waste people's time by repeating what I wrote earlier in this thread, which addressed the points that you raise. Of course you are welcome to say that what I suggested might be possible is actually impossible. The reason I started the thread was to stimulate discussion.

I listed the names of five drivers amongst whom there might well be one or two who would cede to another driver for personal reasons.
If they were only half-way through the race, so that the guy in 2nd really might have a chance to win, that would be one thing. If however, there were one or two laps remaining, with Alonso enjoying a fat lead over the 2nd place car, with Hamilton on his heels in 3rd, it would be a different matter.

There absolutely have been cases in which an F1 driver or team principal made the decision to give way to or favour a rival. This empirical fact is part of why I say that the conventional wisdom that racing drivers are obsessed with winning to the complete exclusion of any other impulse is simply mistaken. To win is by far their greatest motivation, but not the only one for every last driver.

[Galileo]

flemke said:

Galileo said:

flemke said:

Galileo said:

To answer the question, I think that there isn't a Racer on the planet that would concede second place to anybody for any reason, except team orders etc.
Being in a position to maybe win, if the guy in front has trouble? I wouldn't move over even if Jesus Christ himself were behind me. Letting someone beat you means your not a racer and would never have been able to work your way to the top.

I'll accept the proposition that, in order to have reached the level of F1 driver, it helps to have had one or two personality defects, but I think you'll find that the actual individuals are not one-dimensional robots who are incapable of having more than a single motivation.

I take it you've never raced?

Then you take it wrong.

Galileo said:

Name one driver on the grid that you think would hold Hamilton's title chances above a potential race win. Any driver looking maybe to curry favour with Ron for next year? What do you think Ron would think of him. I think he would go down in Ron's estimation as a potential winner and champion. Moving over for Hamilton would do damage to a drivers reputation. And they would know that. So if anything I think anybody in second place would drive the race of their lives to stay in front of Hamilton to show the world how good they are.

I won't waste people's time by repeating what I wrote earlier in this thread, which addressed the points that you raise. Of course you are welcome to say that what I suggested might be possible is actually impossible. The reason I started the thread was to stimulate discussion.

I listed the names of five drivers amongst whom there might well be one or two who would cede to another driver for personal reasons.
If they were only half-way through the race, so that the guy in 2nd really might have a chance to win, that would be one thing. If however, there were one or two laps remaining, with Alonso enjoying a fat lead over the 2nd place car, with Hamilton on his heels in 3rd, it would be a different matter.

There absolutely have been cases in which an F1 driver or team principal made the decision to give way to or favour a rival. This empirical fact is part of why I say that the conventional wisdom that racing drivers are obsessed with winning to the complete exclusion of any other impulse is simply mistaken. To win is by far their greatest motivation, but not the only one for every last driver.

Eloquently put, as ever. You have indeed named five drivers that you think are capable of moving over, but unless I mis-read, you've failed to explain what you think their motivation would be other than their thinking that Alonso is a cad. I'm of the opinion that that is not motivation enough to give up second place and (lets face it the race is not over till they cross the line) risk loosing a win. I think that they wouldn't move over, and stated that I think it would ultimately hurt their reputation as a racing driver.

[uriel]

The question in my mind is would Hamilton *want* any assistance? Sure if the second place guy let him by he'd have the trophy, be the first rookie champion, land the million dollar sponsorship deals etc etc, but he'd not have won it for himself.

I'm in two minds about it since I believe that of all the drivers this year, he does deserve the title so it could be argued (from my point of view) that it all worked out the way it should have. Or would it be an empty win, worth no more than Ferrari's constructor's title?

I'd like to think that I was decent enough to refuse it unless it was fairly and squarely won, but I think I'd be kidding myself if I was to say that in reality I'd do anything but take it.

[flemke]

Galileo said:

You have indeed named five drivers that you think are capable of moving over, but unless I mis-read, you've failed to explain what you think their motivation would be other than their thinking that Alonso is a cad. I'm of the opinion that that is not motivation enough to give up second place and (lets face it the race is not over till they cross the line) risk loosing a win. I think that they wouldn't move over, and stated that I think it would ultimately hurt their reputation as a racing driver.

Galileo,

I was indeed suggesting that dislike of one competitor, or affinity towards another, could in extreme circumstances influence a professional sufficiently to induce him to make it that bit easier for someone to overtake and secure 2nd place. I say "could" - obviously I do not know enough to predict anything, but I do know that there are related precedents.
Agreed that the race is not over until the line is crossed, but on numerous occasions the winner has already crossed the line to complete the last lap whilst the guys back in 2nd and 3rd are still battling for 2nd finishing position.

Cheers.

[RedexRob]

RedexRob said:

Raikkonnen is staying at Fer but is a bloomin robot so it wouldn,t cross his mind , Massa is about to re-sign to Ferrari so no McLaren deal looming for him , I can,t see either of them moving over , personally I read it like this , Alonso knocks Ham off at the first corner in the wet and Ferrari clean up , I don,t want that to happen but I really can see Alonso doing this in his current frame of mind. There could be fireworks in the McLaren pits on Sunday afternoon...

Wasn,t far off was I ? strange though , having that engine glitch when he was in contention...makes you wonder ?