Greatest Racing Driver
Discussion
jalopyjoe said:
Surely Jacky Ickx deserves a mention in this glorious list, if only for his Le Mans victories.
If one were to include Ickx for his six, one might have to include Kristensen for his seven, and that can't be right. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned:
Mario Andretti,
Vic Elford,
or
Stefan Bellof, who may not have been the single "greatest driver", but quite possibly drove the single greatest lap.
Podie said:
Marki said:
SamHH said:
Podie said:
Nah, Senna was a better driver... for example Donnington in '93 in the wet... was on the edge of my seat watching that.
What makes you say that? I mean, if Prost wasn't as good a driver how was he able to win just as often?
Edited by SamHH on Monday 11th September 12:36
Senna took risks , Prost was very risk averse
thats why Senna was so fast in the wetNail on head. Prost was known as the "Professor" - for good reason. Senna, however, was just so much more entertaining to watch.
Oh, and he went to lamp Irvine... which is just funny.
Not only that, but Senna seemed capable of tapping into something that other drivers simply couldn't.
Flat in Fifth said:
Well if you're mentioning rally drivers. Timo Makinen, Tommi's dad was the absolute master.
Remember seeing him on a Welsh stage so slippery one had difficulty standing up. Timo came harry flatters down the track towards a 30 right over cattle grid. He kept his welly in, we were all convinced he was heading for the gatepost, then he braked on this ice, got the braking pressure, just right you could hear the wheels on the point of locking, flicked right into the cattle grid and waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah away into the night, foot right in the bucket.
Remember seeing him on a Welsh stage so slippery one had difficulty standing up. Timo came harry flatters down the track towards a 30 right over cattle grid. He kept his welly in, we were all convinced he was heading for the gatepost, then he braked on this ice, got the braking pressure, just right you could hear the wheels on the point of locking, flicked right into the cattle grid and waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah away into the night, foot right in the bucket.
I have to say, this is one of the most evocative posts I've ever read on PH!
ApexJimi said:
Podie said:
Marki said:
SamHH said:
Podie said:
Nah, Senna was a better driver... for example Donnington in '93 in the wet... was on the edge of my seat watching that.
What makes you say that? I mean, if Prost wasn't as good a driver how was he able to win just as often?
Edited by SamHH on Monday 11th September 12:36
Senna took risks , Prost was very risk averse
thats why Senna was so fast in the wetNail on head. Prost was known as the "Professor" - for good reason. Senna, however, was just so much more entertaining to watch.
Oh, and he went to lamp Irvine... which is just funny.
Not only that, but Senna seemed capable of tapping into something that other drivers simply couldn't.
Quick enough to "tap" into the back of Prost at Suzuka - but your right, he was much more entertaining, if only to watch in hope that the "driver appointed to win by God" might fcuk up - heavens the year when he went into the barriers on his own at Monaco was such a sweet moment....
magic torch said:
I'm trying to remember when Prost had his car sorted early on in qualifying, set a lap, then showered and changed into 'civvies'. Prost then sat very prominently on the pit wall and watched Senna trying to beat his time. Anyone help me with this???
I remember this but can't say when. I do recall though that at the next race Senna repaid the compliment and did the same - set a time that he felt could not be beaten, got changed and sat on the pit wall.
Great days.
magic torch said:
FourWheelDrift said:
magic torch said:
We'll all prefer drivers of 'our era'.
Nope I'm 35 and I rate Moss, then Fangio. Followed very closely by Ascari, Clark, Stewart and Hill.
There's always an exception.
I'm 27 and rate Nuvolari and Moss equal but his record pre-war was incredible - often in uncompetitive cars. Post-war his health was fading but his '47 and '48 Mille Miglia drives in Ferrari and Cisitalia rank as some of the greatest of all time.
Nuvolari died 26 years before I was born.
Never saw Moss race in period (he retired 17 years before I was born)
However, I'm privileged to have watched him race many times in historics (Goodwood '99 in the wet in a 250F was something to behold - he made many other highly rated drivers in much more modern/competitive machinery-look very ordinary that day) and the style and magic is still there.
If you want to know about Moss, Dundrod '51, Mille Miglia '55; Aintree '57, Nurburgring 1000km '58 and '59; Monaco and German GPs '61 should do it. Robert Edwards' book on Moss is ok but Moss' 'My Cars, My Career' which he wrote with Doug Nye is much better.
These two stand head and shoulders above the others regardless of the era.
Others I'd rate highly would include:
Carracciola
Rosemeyer
Ascari
Fangio
Collins
Brooks
Hawthorn
Clark
Gurney
Rindt (who no-one seems to have mentioned)
Amon
Rodriguez, P
Ickx
Peterson
Villeneuve
Senna
Mansell
and (regrettably) Schumacher.
I think th eproblem with th emodern era is that the cars do not allow drivers to shine
I would argue that no drivers today can EVER be termed greatest. My argument is based on the fact that no modern drivers get the chance to demonstrate their skills across a broad spectrum of vehicles, events and series. All we can do in this "modern" era (which dates back to the mid 1970s really) is make comments based on their performances in the category of motor sports in which they participated.
For that reason, Senna, Schumacher, Mansell, Prost etc etc will nevr rate as highly as Clark, Fangio, Moss, Carraciolla and some others in the period 1900 to about 1970. Those drivers did get the chance to prove what theyu could do in sports cars, rallies, Formula 1, Formula 2, saloon cars and various other series.
And before you say it, I am barely old enough to remember Clark racing, let alone Moss or Fangio.
For that reason, Senna, Schumacher, Mansell, Prost etc etc will nevr rate as highly as Clark, Fangio, Moss, Carraciolla and some others in the period 1900 to about 1970. Those drivers did get the chance to prove what theyu could do in sports cars, rallies, Formula 1, Formula 2, saloon cars and various other series.
And before you say it, I am barely old enough to remember Clark racing, let alone Moss or Fangio.
I have to say I'm surprised at the number of people rating Moss above Fangio. I'd have thought that five F1 world championships would give Fangio a more credible shout at the title of 'greatest ever'. Don't forget his various successes in the very long distance South American road races as well. Maybe they get forgotten because they are not part of European motor racing history.
SamHH said:
I have to say I'm surprised at the number of people rating Moss above Fangio. I'd have thought that five F1 world championships would give Fangio a more credible shout at the title of 'greatest ever'. Don't forget his various successes in the very long distance South American road races as well. Maybe they get forgotten because they are not part of European motor racing history.
see above on a separate page - Fangio shone when he had the best car and was certainly a great driver but was always less comfortable in sportscars where Moss' proved himself the most adaptable (and greatest) driver of all time. If looked at in the cold light of day and without using rose tinted spectacles, while Fangio's drive at the 'Ring in '57 was pretty spectacular, Moss' performances for Aston in the 1000km in '58 and '59 surpassed it.
The World Championship is not a great measure of a driver's skill - it often rewards consistency over outright pace. In '51, '54 and '55 Fangio had the best car (and teams which supported hsi drive for the championship) and in '56 Fangio had a pretty poor season but was supported by his Ferrari team mates who often gave up their own cars in order to help 'the old man'. Most notably, Collins handed over his car to Fangio at Monza, allowing Fangio to win the championship while at the same time sacrificing his own chances of taking the title. Collins said he 'was too young' to be World Champion.
I'm not arguing with Fangio's greatness. His record in qualifying was astonishing. I think in his GP career he failed to start onthe front row on only 3 occasions. However, simply greatness is about more than bald statistics - you need to look at the background to his championships (and similarly at Moss' failure to win one) to understand why people are rating Moss above Fangio.
Eric Mc said:
I would argue that no drivers today can EVER be termed greatest. My argument is based on the fact that no modern drivers get the chance to demonstrate their skills across a broad spectrum of vehicles, events and series. All we can do in this "modern" era (which dates back to the mid 1970s really) is make comments based on their performances in the category of motor sports in which they participated.
For that reason, Senna, Schumacher, Mansell, Prost etc etc will nevr rate as highly as Clark, Fangio, Moss, Carraciolla and some others in the period 1900 to about 1970. Those drivers did get the chance to prove what theyu could do in sports cars, rallies, Formula 1, Formula 2, saloon cars and various other series.
And before you say it, I am barely old enough to remember Clark racing, let alone Moss or Fangio.
For that reason, Senna, Schumacher, Mansell, Prost etc etc will nevr rate as highly as Clark, Fangio, Moss, Carraciolla and some others in the period 1900 to about 1970. Those drivers did get the chance to prove what theyu could do in sports cars, rallies, Formula 1, Formula 2, saloon cars and various other series.
And before you say it, I am barely old enough to remember Clark racing, let alone Moss or Fangio.
It's a real shame that modern F1 drivers don't compete in a variety of other series. It would be great to see how the drivers who are supposedly the best in the world fare in 'lesser' competitions. Wouldn't it be fantastic to see a current top F1 driver in a GP2 or Formula Three race?
I suspect that in modern motor racing, more time and commitment is reqiured from the driver and this prevents them from jumping in a car with which they are unfamiliar and being competitive in a race.
Tom Kristensen manages to have a DTM career alongside racing in sports prototypes, although I don't think he races them in anything except the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Which other top level drivers (not just F1) compete in more than one discipline?
ApexJimi said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Well if you're mentioning rally drivers. Timo Makinen, Tommi's dad was the absolute master.
Remember seeing him on a Welsh stage so slippery one had difficulty standing up. Timo came harry flatters down the track towards a 30 right over cattle grid. He kept his welly in, we were all convinced he was heading for the gatepost, then he braked on this ice, got the braking pressure, just right you could hear the wheels on the point of locking, flicked right into the cattle grid and waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah away into the night, foot right in the bucket.
Remember seeing him on a Welsh stage so slippery one had difficulty standing up. Timo came harry flatters down the track towards a 30 right over cattle grid. He kept his welly in, we were all convinced he was heading for the gatepost, then he braked on this ice, got the braking pressure, just right you could hear the wheels on the point of locking, flicked right into the cattle grid and waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah away into the night, foot right in the bucket.
I have to say, this is one of the most evocative posts I've ever read on PH!
Aw shucks, you're too kind, shuffles feet in embarrassment.
It was that very moment though, one where I can close my eyes and relive etc, which made me resolve to stop dicking about at club and regional championship level and really go for it.
Post-war it's Clark - it's not in question, & I was a Graham Hill fan.
Otherwise I am led to believe Nuovolari was No.Uno.
Why does Moss hold on to so many votes, is it his heroic failure to win the world championship, the Mille Miglia, the crash or the fact he is still turning up everywhere telling us how good he is/was?
As far as rallying is concerned I'm with the Finns, and the list that the northern bird posted.
The current Frog seems fairly rapid but unfortunately just a little bit too
FIG JAM (F*** I'm good, Just ask me!)
Otherwise I am led to believe Nuovolari was No.Uno.
Why does Moss hold on to so many votes, is it his heroic failure to win the world championship, the Mille Miglia, the crash or the fact he is still turning up everywhere telling us how good he is/was?
As far as rallying is concerned I'm with the Finns, and the list that the northern bird posted.
The current Frog seems fairly rapid but unfortunately just a little bit too
FIG JAM (F*** I'm good, Just ask me!)
CiderwithCerbie said:
FourWheelDrift said:
CiderwithCerbie said:
Post-war it's Clark - it's not in question, & I was a Graham Hill fan.
And if you could ask Jim Clark he'd probably say of the drivers he raced against it was Dan Gurney, he was the only one he feared.
Errrr....who told you, Dan or Jim?
Jim said it when they were still both racing, when asked "which driver does he fear most?"
I've no criticism of those who pick Clark as the greatest and certainly, in the mid-60s he was more or less unbeatable. Like Fangio he made very few mistakes.
However, Moss' career was that much more broad in terms of the cars he drove (like Mario or Vic Elford later) and for a large part of his career Clark steered clear of sports car racing (which contemporaries like Surtees and Hill embraced and excelled at).
I don't believe that the enthusiasm for Moss is in any way rooted in his '62 accident. He'd done enough y the mid-50s to secure his place in the motor racing pantheon. As for belittling the Mille Miglia achievement.... be serious - 10 hours, flat out? I've driven a fairly powerful car at 8/10 for maybe 6-7 minutes and was absolutely knackered - to drive a car capable of 180mph over ordinary roads, averaging just shy of 100mph for 10 hours takes stamina, skill and judgement that few other human beings possess.
His Nurburgring drives in the DBR1 were of a similar level. After retiring his own car in the '59 event, Innes Ireland (no mean driver who also saw Clark at first hand) "...drove out to Fluplatz, a couple of miles from the start. The circuit there goes over a hump, then over a bridge and into an uphill right-hander. Stirling would come hurtling through there with the DBR1 and you could see that he was miles faster than everone else... Every lap he was visibly closer to the Ferraris and the spectators were hanging out of the trees.. waving and cheering him on. As he came over the hump the car got terribly light then it banged into the dip and up to the right hander and Stirling - driving right on the doorhandles and with bags of opposite lock - was wavign right back at them! I thought: 'Shit!, this is something else!'"
It is unfortunate that Clark hadn't got into his stride before Moss was forced to retire. It is a question which, like the Senna/Schumacher question, will remain unanswered.
However, Moss' career was that much more broad in terms of the cars he drove (like Mario or Vic Elford later) and for a large part of his career Clark steered clear of sports car racing (which contemporaries like Surtees and Hill embraced and excelled at).
I don't believe that the enthusiasm for Moss is in any way rooted in his '62 accident. He'd done enough y the mid-50s to secure his place in the motor racing pantheon. As for belittling the Mille Miglia achievement.... be serious - 10 hours, flat out? I've driven a fairly powerful car at 8/10 for maybe 6-7 minutes and was absolutely knackered - to drive a car capable of 180mph over ordinary roads, averaging just shy of 100mph for 10 hours takes stamina, skill and judgement that few other human beings possess.
His Nurburgring drives in the DBR1 were of a similar level. After retiring his own car in the '59 event, Innes Ireland (no mean driver who also saw Clark at first hand) "...drove out to Fluplatz, a couple of miles from the start. The circuit there goes over a hump, then over a bridge and into an uphill right-hander. Stirling would come hurtling through there with the DBR1 and you could see that he was miles faster than everone else... Every lap he was visibly closer to the Ferraris and the spectators were hanging out of the trees.. waving and cheering him on. As he came over the hump the car got terribly light then it banged into the dip and up to the right hander and Stirling - driving right on the doorhandles and with bags of opposite lock - was wavign right back at them! I thought: 'Shit!, this is something else!'"
It is unfortunate that Clark hadn't got into his stride before Moss was forced to retire. It is a question which, like the Senna/Schumacher question, will remain unanswered.
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