*** The Offical Rally Poland Thread ***
Discussion
I think this years championship has been the best in years. Yes Ogier is running a away with it but their has been drama in most rounds so far this year.
JML crashing on todays Power stage and that drive by Tanak on the same stage made it gripping viewing. Such a shame Tanak lost out by just 0.1secs but looks good for Finland
JML crashing on todays Power stage and that drive by Tanak on the same stage made it gripping viewing. Such a shame Tanak lost out by just 0.1secs but looks good for Finland
Agreed, it's been the best season for a long time IMO.
Insane from drivers and spectators in this video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEtmmte33M
Insane from drivers and spectators in this video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEtmmte33M
SAGTAFF said:
I think this years championship has been the best in years. Yes Ogier is running a away with it but their has been drama in most rounds so far this year.
It has been good so far hasn't it.Apart from Ogier's whinges about road position at least - this time he's going on about 'clearing the road for 90% of the rally', I count 8 stages that he was actually sweeping (as opposed to repeat runs of already swept stages). And some of those the dust and ruts were more of a disadvantage for cars further down the order anyway.
He may well be deliberately exaggerating it to try and mind-game the other drivers, but I don't think he's making himself many fans with the attitude. Let him bleat on about it if he likes, but the WRC media people don't need to quote him every single time.
I better not complain about it too much though or I'll be as bad as him!
Edited by GravelBen on Monday 6th July 03:26
GravelBen said:
It has been good so far hasn't it.
Apart from Ogier's whinges about road position at least - this time he's going on about 'clearing the road for 90% of the rally', I count 8 stages that he was actually sweeping (as opposed to repeat runs of already swept stages). And some of those the dust and ruts were more of a disadvantage for cars further down the order anyway.
He may well be deliberately exaggerating it to try and mind-game the other drivers, but I don't think he's making himself many fans with the attitude. Let him bleat on about it if he likes, but the WRC media people don't need to quote him every single time.
I better not complain about it too much though or I'll be as bad as him!
I've never really understood the venom against SebOg and his complaints about having to be first on the road. ANY top proffessional sportsman would feel aggrieved at being handicapped in a similar manner.Apart from Ogier's whinges about road position at least - this time he's going on about 'clearing the road for 90% of the rally', I count 8 stages that he was actually sweeping (as opposed to repeat runs of already swept stages). And some of those the dust and ruts were more of a disadvantage for cars further down the order anyway.
He may well be deliberately exaggerating it to try and mind-game the other drivers, but I don't think he's making himself many fans with the attitude. Let him bleat on about it if he likes, but the WRC media people don't need to quote him every single time.
I better not complain about it too much though or I'll be as bad as him!
Edited by GravelBen on Monday 6th July 03:26
Tell Lewis Hamilton, Valentino Rossi et all they'd have to start on the less grippy side of the grid all season because they'd won the previous year's championship and they'd complain at every opportunity (and those that have followed Moto GP over the years will know that Rossi's crew were actually caught trying to improve the surface of his grid position late at night some years ago)
As I recall Senna created merry hell at being given what he felt was the less grippy side of the grid despite being on pole ?
Ogier's handicap is a far greater "penalty" yet strangely enough he still wins .... What next, the winner of the previous year's WRC gets to run a smaller turbo restrictor or carry extra ballast. ?
Give the bloke a break, he's proven himself to be a worthy champion and a fiercesome competitor. There's no doubting his speed and commitment.
When he was interviewed he did state that "it's a World Championship" - gimmicks, handicapping, etc really have no place. If somebody is good, beat them without being given help. The current rule was brought in to stop him running away with the Championship; which is pretty poor. He may complain, but he's still dominating. So chapeau to him.
Its often far less of a disadvantage than he claims (like this weekend) and on many rallies its quite an advantage. Maybe it would be fairer to only run the first day in championship rather than rally order, but would that have changed anything this year? He's generally been at or near the top regardless of road position.
As for calling it a gimmick - its no more a gimmick than reversing the order of the WRC cars for the final (half)day, and I don't see him complaining about that one. In any other race the leader is at the front, first on the road you could say.
Its mostly his attitude thats irritating I think - other drivers might mention it as a factor on certain stages, but he rabbits on and on and on like its the number one defining factor of the championship and a conspiracy against him personally. And then comes across with the smug arrogance that its only because he's better than everybody else.
As for calling it a gimmick - its no more a gimmick than reversing the order of the WRC cars for the final (half)day, and I don't see him complaining about that one. In any other race the leader is at the front, first on the road you could say.
Its mostly his attitude thats irritating I think - other drivers might mention it as a factor on certain stages, but he rabbits on and on and on like its the number one defining factor of the championship and a conspiracy against him personally. And then comes across with the smug arrogance that its only because he's better than everybody else.
GravelBen said:
Its often far less of a disadvantage than he claims (like this weekend) and on many rallies its quite an advantage. Maybe it would be fairer to only run the first day in championship rather than rally order, but would that have changed anything this year? He's generally been at or near the top regardless of road position.
As for calling it a gimmick - its no more a gimmick than reversing the order of the WRC cars for the final (half)day, and I don't see him complaining about that one. In any other race the leader is at the front, first on the road you could say.
Its mostly his attitude thats irritating I think - other drivers might mention it as a factor on certain stages, but he rabbits on and on and on like its the number one defining factor of the championship and a conspiracy against him personally. And then comes across with the smug arrogance that its only because he's better than everybody else.
My guess is if JML or AM found themselves in the same position, you'd see the true impact of their having to run first on the road. As for his smug arrogance at his perceived superiority, well I think he's already proven that in the same car, he's consistetently quicker than his teammates.As for calling it a gimmick - its no more a gimmick than reversing the order of the WRC cars for the final (half)day, and I don't see him complaining about that one. In any other race the leader is at the front, first on the road you could say.
Its mostly his attitude thats irritating I think - other drivers might mention it as a factor on certain stages, but he rabbits on and on and on like its the number one defining factor of the championship and a conspiracy against him personally. And then comes across with the smug arrogance that its only because he's better than everybody else.
Your comments make it sound you dislike him. Period. Nothing wrong with that, Schamacher, Senna, Loeb ( to a lesser degree I suspect) all galvanised opinion. But the bottom line is, SebOg is the fastest driver out there currently, unfortunately he happens to be in the best/fastest car too.
Handicapping him isn't the way to make he sport more of an attraction, the other drivers and teams improving their game is.
Ogier has ALL the hallmarks of being another Loeb, talented, blindingly fast, a fiercesomely competitor capable of pulling crazily fast stage times out of the bag when his back's against the wall. My guess is that even if he were to never breath another word about being forced to run first on the road, you'd still dislike him .....
I never said anything to deny that he's currently the fastest driver in the fastest car, that much is obvious to see. I don't know that he's as far above the rest as some think, but thats another question. You know what they say about opinions!
We saw Paddon challenge him in Sardegna and continue to challenge him when he was no longer running first, we saw Tanak and Mikkelsen challenge him in Poland and continue to challenge him when he was no longer running first. He might not have had to push quite as hard to meet the challenge (nobody really knows but him, and he plays those cards close to his chest), but he certainly wasn't backing off and cruising.
Sweeping a handful of stages does slow those stage times, yes. So does bouncing through ruts and dodging loose rocks on the line, so does driving through hanging dust, so does mud dragged onto the road on tarmac rounds... there are challenges at both ends of the running order. Most drivers just think 'thats rallying' and get on with it.
If he stopped displaying the attitude/behaviour that I dislike then I'd stop disliking him, its pretty simple really and not some 'hate the winner' syndrome. He's good enough that he doesn't need to be a drama queen about every perceived disadvantage. I'm sure he wouldn't care if I like him or not mind you!
We saw Paddon challenge him in Sardegna and continue to challenge him when he was no longer running first, we saw Tanak and Mikkelsen challenge him in Poland and continue to challenge him when he was no longer running first. He might not have had to push quite as hard to meet the challenge (nobody really knows but him, and he plays those cards close to his chest), but he certainly wasn't backing off and cruising.
Sweeping a handful of stages does slow those stage times, yes. So does bouncing through ruts and dodging loose rocks on the line, so does driving through hanging dust, so does mud dragged onto the road on tarmac rounds... there are challenges at both ends of the running order. Most drivers just think 'thats rallying' and get on with it.
If he stopped displaying the attitude/behaviour that I dislike then I'd stop disliking him, its pretty simple really and not some 'hate the winner' syndrome. He's good enough that he doesn't need to be a drama queen about every perceived disadvantage. I'm sure he wouldn't care if I like him or not mind you!
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 7th July 08:11
Slippydiff said:
Handicapping him isn't the way to make he sport more of an attraction, the other drivers and teams improving their game is.
Really?Well I am not of the same opinion - would we have had so many different leaders in days one or two if SO had been running where he had wanted from day 1 of the rally? I think not. I think its quite exciting to give the likes of Tanak or Paddon a 20 sec or so start and then see if SO can catch them in the final day.
Another point He does not run first on the road because he is world champion, he runs first on the road because he is leading the championship. If this were such a big dis-advantage then he would lose the lead of the championship but then get to run further down the running order on days on and two. However, he is that good that so far he reals everyone in by the end of day1 or two and not leaving it until day 3!
Its much the same concept as the weight ballast the touring cars adopt - I think its a great idea to keep interest.
SAGTAFF said:
If this were such a big dis-advantage then he would lose the lead of the championship but then get to run further down the running order on days on and two. However, he is that good that so far he reals everyone in by the end of day1 or two and not leaving it until day 3!
In practice the number of repeated stages means he is often only sweeping new stages for half the first day, and then has a few competitors who retire and re-join running ahead of him on day 2 as well (though that didn't happen in Poland).SAGTAFF said:
Really?
Well I am not of the same opinion - would we have had so many different leaders in days one or two if SO had been running where he had wanted from day 1 of the rally? I think not. I think its quite exciting to give the likes of Tanak or Paddon a 20 sec or so start and then see if SO can catch them in the final day.
Another point He does not run first on the road because he is world champion, he runs first on the road because he is leading the championship. If this were such a big dis-advantage then he would lose the lead of the championship but then get to run further down the running order on days on and two. However, he is that good that so far he reals everyone in by the end of day1 or two and not leaving it until day 3!
Its much the same concept as the weight ballast the touring cars adopt - I think its a great idea to keep interest.
Yes, really.Well I am not of the same opinion - would we have had so many different leaders in days one or two if SO had been running where he had wanted from day 1 of the rally? I think not. I think its quite exciting to give the likes of Tanak or Paddon a 20 sec or so start and then see if SO can catch them in the final day.
Another point He does not run first on the road because he is world champion, he runs first on the road because he is leading the championship. If this were such a big dis-advantage then he would lose the lead of the championship but then get to run further down the running order on days on and two. However, he is that good that so far he reals everyone in by the end of day1 or two and not leaving it until day 3!
Its much the same concept as the weight ballast the touring cars adopt - I think its a great idea to keep interest.
But I suspect we'll never agree on this
I don't really care how many differing leaders we had on day one of Rally Poland, but then a bit like Patrick Head, I see ballasting in any formula as "a charter for mediocrity".
Sebastien Ogier and VW is clearly the fastest driver/car combination currently, as was Loeb before him, Gronholm before that and Makinen before that.
It's up to the likes of Hyundai, Ford etc to produce a car the equal of or better than the Polo (something Meeke clearly feels Citroen haven't/aren't doing judging by his comments on the Polo this year and last) Likewise it's the responsibility of the drivers to up their game and apply greater pressure to Ogier.
If Paddon is as fast as he looks, ditto Tanak, they'll beat Ogier without his unnecessary handicapping.
Now M Sport have built Tanak a car he genuinely feels confident in, he'll hopefully begin pressurising Ogier into mistakes. Andreas M looks to now be capable of doing the same.
And as we've seen before with all the greats, put them under pressure, no matter how good they are, they will make mistakes.
But furthermore, we've seen some remarkable results from the Hyundai's since they re-entered the sport, BUT reports from the drivers at the end of stages/events appear to list a catalogue of broken/failed parts, be they engines, gearboxes, engine mounts etc etc.
With the best will in the world, they'll not mount a convincing challenge to VW or Ogier if they can't build strong, fast, durable cars. Ditto Ford.
Handicapping the most successful may be an easy way to make the sport "exciting", but it won't do VW's/Ogier's competitors any favours in the long run.
Apologies, you are of course correct with regards to Ogiers place on the road being decided by his finishing position in the previous round, not last year's championship standings
Slippydiff said:
It's up to the likes of Hyundai, Ford etc to produce a car the equal of or better than the Polo
The new Hyundai has looked much better than the current one in testing vids, and driver feedback seems positive - lower c.o.g, better balanced etc. The catch is that it doesn't just have to be as good as this years VW, it has to be as good as next years! And once the teams sign a new car off they seem very limited on being able to introduce any improvements during the season. I'm sure they've learnt a lot from the current car though, they are still a fairly new team.It would be interesting to learn how team budgets compare this year, the rules are supposed to avoid it becoming cheque book racing but it is often the case that the team with the deepest pockets wins - I remember some eye-opening numbers floating around during the Peugeot 206 era.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 8th July 11:36
Have to agree with Slippydiff;
It’s a World Championship. It’s not for the governing body to handicap the top guys/ teams. It’s okay in a national/club type series, e;g BTCC, DTM, etc But in a world series?
Are Chelsea going to start next season with a handicap to give the others a chance? Either bring back the qualifying stage – or the championship leader runs first for the first day only.
It’s a World Championship. It’s not for the governing body to handicap the top guys/ teams. It’s okay in a national/club type series, e;g BTCC, DTM, etc But in a world series?
Are Chelsea going to start next season with a handicap to give the others a chance? Either bring back the qualifying stage – or the championship leader runs first for the first day only.
GravelBen said:
The new Hyundai has looked much better than the current one in testing vids, and driver feedback seems positive - lower c.o.g, better balanced etc. The catch is that it doesn't just have to be as good as this years VW, it has to be as good as next years! And once the teams sign a new car off they seem very limited on being able to introduce any improvements during the season. I'm sure they've learnt a lot from the current car though, they are still a fairly new team.
It would be interesting to learn how team budgets compare this year, the rules are supposed to avoid it becoming cheque book racing but it is often the case that the team with the deepest pockets wins - I remember some eye-opening numbers floating around during the Peugeot 206 era.
I wish we could get more in depth features on the current WRC cars. I appreciate it won't happen, there's too much new/secret tech goes into the cars and thus there's too much at stake to let a journalist poke around the darkest recesses, but a return to the articles by the likes of Martin Sharp in CCC (and the really good tech articles in RaceTech magazine) would make for some interesting reading.It would be interesting to learn how team budgets compare this year, the rules are supposed to avoid it becoming cheque book racing but it is often the case that the team with the deepest pockets wins - I remember some eye-opening numbers floating around during the Peugeot 206 era.
I hope Hyundai and Ford can maintain their drive to build a championship winning car.
As I've said on here previously, all the recent championship winners have had cars designed/built around them and their driving styles, Ford needs to do the same with Tanak (they did it with Marko Martin and almost won the championship), Hyundai with either Neuville or Paddon (never really been a massive fan of Neuville, but there's no doubting his talent, and in the big scheme of things, he feels more like Championship material than Paddon currently)
I don't see any real commitment from Citroen, on the face of it they appear to have given Meeke and MO a car that was designed for Loeb. Whilst it may have had some updates/revisions, it's nothing like as developed as the Polo, nor the Fiesta/i20 either.
It'll be interesting to see if Citroen bow out of the WRC and concentrate on the WTCC, or stick with the WRC, if it's the latter they may up their game. If not, will Peugeot be allowed back in to the WRc arena again ?
Some interesting news on Toyota's 2017 return :
http://www.racetechmag.com/latest-news/item/1119-t...
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