Jenson Button's last race win
Discussion
Yes, Lotus were still flogging their 18 to privateer teams (like Rob Walker's) whilst hiding the fact that they themselves were about to use the more advanced 21. By 1962. Walker/Moss had access to a hybrid car which is often called the 18/21. It was in one of these that Moss suffered his career ending crash at Goodwood.
Indeed, by 1962, the 21 itself was obsolete as Chapman had developed the monocoque 25 which, in 1963, went on the win the first World Championship for Lotus.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 6th September 08:04
Indeed, by 1962, the 21 itself was obsolete as Chapman had developed the monocoque 25 which, in 1963, went on the win the first World Championship for Lotus.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 6th September 08:04
If a driver can attract sponsors it makes them as appealing as a driver that can win races. This seems to be becoming more and more important in F1 and Button seems to be very popular with sponsors.
He has exactly what teams are looking for, he has the potential to win races and quite possibly a championship in the not too distant future, he's not as expensive as some of the other drivers, he's popular with fans and the public and he brings sponsorship money - exactly what an F1 team wants.
He's also a smooth driver and doesn't wreck cars by ragging the crap out of them all the time, unlike Raikonen, who'd probably be winning the championship if he was a little bit more gentle with his car
He has exactly what teams are looking for, he has the potential to win races and quite possibly a championship in the not too distant future, he's not as expensive as some of the other drivers, he's popular with fans and the public and he brings sponsorship money - exactly what an F1 team wants.
He's also a smooth driver and doesn't wreck cars by ragging the crap out of them all the time, unlike Raikonen, who'd probably be winning the championship if he was a little bit more gentle with his car
schwarzpm said:
If a driver can attract sponsors it makes them as appealing as a driver that can win races. This seems to be becoming more and more important in F1 and Button seems to be very popular with sponsors.
He has exactly what teams are looking for, he has the potential to win races and quite possibly a championship in the not too distant future, he's not as expensive as some of the other drivers, he's popular with fans and the public and he brings sponsorship money - exactly what an F1 team wants.
He's also a smooth driver and doesn't wreck cars by ragging the crap out of them all the time, unlike Raikonen, who'd probably be winning the championship if he was a little bit more gentle with his car
IMHO that's the best precis of what Button has to offer that I think I've read.
rubystone said:
If a driver can attract sponsors it makes them as appealing as a driver that can win races. This seems to be becoming more and more important in F1 and Button seems to be very popular with sponsors.
He has exactly what teams are looking for, he has the potential to win races and quite possibly a championship in the not too distant future, he's not as expensive as some of the other drivers, he's popular with fans and the public and he brings sponsorship money - exactly what an F1 team wants.
He's also a smooth driver and doesn't wreck cars by ragging the crap out of them all the time, unlike Raikonen, who'd probably be winning the championship if he was a little bit more gentle with his car
IMHO that's the best precis of what Button has to offer that I think I've read.
Yes, it is a very good synopsis - but compare him with Mansell. He DID trash the nuts off the car every time he drove it, he DID end up with a significant number of retirements, and he didn't exactly have the playboy image Button has.
But that didn't stop him winning an F1 championship, an Indycar championship and countless GP wins (27 I think, but I'm probably wrong). As a result Mansell was probably THE driver every team wanted from a sponsorship point of view, except for his reputation as a moaner!
Mansell won the '92 championship in a car that half the filed could have won it in, IMHO. For me, his 1986 and 1987 failures were far greater testament to his undoubted ability to muscle a car to victory than his '92 win. But the FW14B is my number 1 favourite F1 car - such a beautiful shape and such a technical tour de force.
His 1993 CART success was fueled by his anger at Williams not acceding to his massive salary demands (this said only half in jest
). But boy did I love the fact that he "whupped ass" (as I believe the Americans say).
His 1993 CART success was fueled by his anger at Williams not acceding to his massive salary demands (this said only half in jest
). But boy did I love the fact that he "whupped ass" (as I believe the Americans say). 
Some great replies on this thread, reads like a great depth of knowlege to be found on Pistonheads.
Would still like to see Button winning, my point was the hype being propogated the the likes of ITV doesnt add up to what we've seen so far.
Lets see what happens in the rain in Spa this weekend.. (if we get a race)
Would still like to see Button winning, my point was the hype being propogated the the likes of ITV doesnt add up to what we've seen so far.
Lets see what happens in the rain in Spa this weekend.. (if we get a race)
OK. Button sees he has one chance here to prove himself and that's with BAR. He fights tooth and nail to stay there.
Michael Owen - sees his international career and any chance he might get to win a world cup disappearing down the tubes whilst he sits on the subs bench in Spain. Decides he wants to go back to Liverpool, they won't pay the money and he makes it quite clear Newcastle are second best. Even has a contract drawn up with more holes in it than a genuine GT40 chassis (flanged of course).
Are they both toerags or are they guys who want to realise a childhood ambition?
I've had the rug pulled from under me several times in my career and have learnt to be loyal to no one other than myself.
I therefore have a certain sympathy for Button and Owen.
Michael Owen - sees his international career and any chance he might get to win a world cup disappearing down the tubes whilst he sits on the subs bench in Spain. Decides he wants to go back to Liverpool, they won't pay the money and he makes it quite clear Newcastle are second best. Even has a contract drawn up with more holes in it than a genuine GT40 chassis (flanged of course).
Are they both toerags or are they guys who want to realise a childhood ambition?
I've had the rug pulled from under me several times in my career and have learnt to be loyal to no one other than myself.
I therefore have a certain sympathy for Button and Owen.
In a way you are correct. Loyalty works both ways and in the modern age, trust and loyalty is more noteable by its absence than its presence.
Neither Stirling Moss nor Jackie Stewart ever had written contracts with the teams they drove for (Rob Walker and Ken Tyrrell respectively). Their deals were agreed with a handshake and kept in place by honour and mutual respect and trust.
Neither Stirling Moss nor Jackie Stewart ever had written contracts with the teams they drove for (Rob Walker and Ken Tyrrell respectively). Their deals were agreed with a handshake and kept in place by honour and mutual respect and trust.
rubystone said:
Are they both toerags or are they guys who want to realise a childhood ambition?
I've had the rug pulled from under me several times in my career and have learnt to be loyal to no one other than myself.
Cannot comment on Owen; Button is plainly a toerag deluxe.
There are nineteen other drivers on the F1 grid, another twenty or so F1 testers, and another probably fifty thousand competitors in lesser formulae whose childhood ambition also was to be World Champion. What makes Button more deserving than any of them?
Aspiring to fame and fortune is hardly justification for breaking a commitment. Max Mosley's childhood ambition was perhaps to rule the world (his adult behaviour seems to suggest that). That would not justify his malevolent dictatorship of motorsport.
If BAR or Williams had been disloyal to Button or somehow treated him unfairly, then he should not be expected to maintain blind loyalty to them. In this case, however, the fact that Button has within the space of a few months tried very hard to break a contract in order to go to each of them can only mean that neither has been unfair to him. Otherwise he wouldn't have sought to join them. It follows that neither deserves his disloyalty.
It was obvious from the first race this year that the '05 Ferrari was not a winning car. Schumacher, much as I dislike him, is still as good a driver as there is. He has a contract with Ferrari through '06. Would he have been justified in orchestrating a campaign to ditch Ferrari in order to get a ride with Renault or McLaren for the balance of this year?
If you're unhappy about a commitment, because of your childhood ambition or for a more serious reason, it's one thing to have a quiet word with the other party and try to sort things out. It is quite another thing, however, to drag everything into open view, exploit the media, leverage your public profile and try to pressurise the other party into capitulating so that you can get your own whingeing way.
A man's word has got to mean something.
rubystone said:
OK. Button sees he has one chance here to prove himself and that's with BAR. He fights tooth and nail to stay there.
Michael Owen - sees his international career and any chance he might get to win a world cup disappearing down the tubes whilst he sits on the subs bench in Spain. Decides he wants to go back to Liverpool, they won't pay the money and he makes it quite clear Newcastle are second best. Even has a contract drawn up with more holes in it than a genuine GT40 chassis (flanged of course).
Are they both toerags or are they guys who want to realise a childhood ambition?
I've had the rug pulled from under me several times in my career and have learnt to be loyal to no one other than myself.
I therefore have a certain sympathy for Button and Owen.
It's not about loyalty, it's about integrity. Button showed he had no loyalty when he tried to leave BAR (twice) and now shows that he has no integrity either by trying to renege on a deal.
Montoya is not my favourite driver, but last season when it was announced that he was leaving Williams for Maclaren the consensus of opinion was 'daft move' but Montoya said that Maclaren was a big team and had the ability to fight back. And he was right. Who is to say that Williams won't do the same next year?
Well, anybody who actually saw Button race on Sunday can be in no doubt of his skill and ability to excite!
YES, he has no integrity - that is a personal failing which to me, has no bearing on whether I like to watch him or not. you may as well ask whether I like Shuey as a person.... - of course I don't - but WOW - I certainly enjoy watching him at work!
Despite what a couple of people have said, the interest in Formula 1 is really about the driving and the wheel to wheel action and on track overtaking.
I hope Button stays at BAR in 2006, kicks RB's arse in no uncertain terms, wins tonnes of races in style and wins the championship too!
0 wins in 100 races, then hello World Champion - that would be a dream come true for British Motorsport!
YES, he has no integrity - that is a personal failing which to me, has no bearing on whether I like to watch him or not. you may as well ask whether I like Shuey as a person.... - of course I don't - but WOW - I certainly enjoy watching him at work!
Despite what a couple of people have said, the interest in Formula 1 is really about the driving and the wheel to wheel action and on track overtaking.
I hope Button stays at BAR in 2006, kicks RB's arse in no uncertain terms, wins tonnes of races in style and wins the championship too!
0 wins in 100 races, then hello World Champion - that would be a dream come true for British Motorsport!
The DJ 27 said:
Alesi simply let his heart rule his head and went and signed for Ferrari instead of Williams. I firmly beleive that if Alesi had signed for Williams, he could have won world titles in 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96 and 97. Obviously it's highly unlikely that he would have won all of those championships, but he would have had the potential. IMHO he's one of the great losses to F1, a man who was good enough to be one of the greats but was saddled with uncompetitive cars for his entire career.
It's great to read something which reflects my view of Alesi. Seeing him fling the Tyrrell round Monaco (on video) showed that he was one of the greats.
Simon
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