Ferrari and their Atitude
Discussion
Touringfan said:It seems fairly simple to me. Minardi have built some parts in about a week that are allowed by the regulations. This is a last resort since they have not been tested. They certainly won't be the result of any CFD work. They can bung them on the car to at least make it to the track but they're rather not for obvious reasons.
Good reply.
However apart from the fairness of allowing a car to compete that clearly doesn't comply....the question I cant get my head around is this;
If his new aero parts have not been tested and cannot be put on the car for safety reasons....why on earth did he paint them, sticker them, pack them up and take them all the way to Melbourne?
It defies logic to go to that trouble and expense to take major components to a GP, that just cannot be used.
There can be no other plausible reason for it, other than the fact that they are fully capable of being used. Otherwise they simply would not have taken them, would they?
I know if I was in Paul's position I would do all I could to not have to resort to untested parts. This includes being a little economical with the truth. Making a song and dance is all very well and may give you column inches but if your car doesn't make it onto the track, and people don't see those nice little stickers on the side of your car, you can kiss goodbye to your sponsors.
re: stoddart - mea culpa, i am sorry - he HAS invested in his team for 2005!!!!:
"Stoddart, who has brought an army of lawyers and three QC's with him to Melbourne to fight his case, believes that the signature of Horner's RBR predecessor Tony Purnell is a valid consent."
quoted from itvf1.
ah. that kind of investment. what a loser. shame he didn't spend some of this money on dumb f1 things like - r&d, aerodynamics, drivers, etc.
nah, let's have a load of egotistical mercenary glory-seeking lawyers - hey, they're just like me! - at $700 an hour instead. why invest in my f1 team - it's only a vehicle for me.
nice one, stoddy. i don't believe you're an aussie for one minute, mate. i've lived there. i doubt your own people even like you much.
local hero? sure. i would think they have more respect for prince charles.
"Stoddart, who has brought an army of lawyers and three QC's with him to Melbourne to fight his case, believes that the signature of Horner's RBR predecessor Tony Purnell is a valid consent."
quoted from itvf1.
ah. that kind of investment. what a loser. shame he didn't spend some of this money on dumb f1 things like - r&d, aerodynamics, drivers, etc.
nah, let's have a load of egotistical mercenary glory-seeking lawyers - hey, they're just like me! - at $700 an hour instead. why invest in my f1 team - it's only a vehicle for me.
nice one, stoddy. i don't believe you're an aussie for one minute, mate. i've lived there. i doubt your own people even like you much.
local hero? sure. i would think they have more respect for prince charles.
And there lies the issue, as you have said, Frik.
Stoddart has stated categorically that he will not allow his cars to run with untested aero on it.
Fair enough.....so why did he bring them?
Lets see if he is a man of his word. I guess that he's not and that he will stick the parts on the cars and run then, otherwise why else would he have brought them?
Also you may have noticed that in order to remove Red Bulls objection, he has not suggested that he run for no points. Why?
Because hes grandstanding.
He made his own bed, he can lay in it.
>> Edited by Touringfan on Thursday 3rd March 23:26
Stoddart has stated categorically that he will not allow his cars to run with untested aero on it.
Fair enough.....so why did he bring them?
Lets see if he is a man of his word. I guess that he's not and that he will stick the parts on the cars and run then, otherwise why else would he have brought them?
Also you may have noticed that in order to remove Red Bulls objection, he has not suggested that he run for no points. Why?
Because hes grandstanding.
He made his own bed, he can lay in it.
>> Edited by Touringfan on Thursday 3rd March 23:26
Touringfan said:
And there lies the issue, as you have said, Frik.
Stoddart has stated categorically that he will not allow his cars to run with untested aero on it.
Fair enough.....so why did he bring them?
Lets see if he is a man of his word. I guess that he's not and that he will stick the parts on the cars and run then, otherwise why else would he have brought them?
Also you may have noticed that in order to remove Red Bulls objection, he has not suggested that he run for no points. Why?
Because hes grandstanding.
He made his own bed, he can lay in it.
>> Edited by Touringfan on Thursday 3rd March 23:26
exactly.
for all the ego's and eccentrics in f1 in recent past years, i can only think of one pratt more odious and shallow than stoddart - james allen - and he thank god only commentates. when & where possible i have itv sound off and listen on a radio, even though i sadly miss brundle's wit.
stoddart is an utter moron and i do hope his own people see what a pitiful joke he is and do not let themselves be manipulated by his absurd selfish antics.
i doubt minardi will see out 2005.
Well said.
The following from a media conference today in Melbourne with Max Mosely is very apt;
__________________________________
Finally, what's your reaction to Paul Stoddart as the Formula 1 shop steward?
"I think Paul is a bit too trusting, even naive. One or two team principals who now pretend to be his best friends are the same individuals who tried to grab his Minardi money a couple of years ago. They were only stopped because the FIA insisted he should get what was due to him. They then said Paul had no place in Formula 1. They are using him now, but will turn on him as soon as it suits them. Paul is doing the best he can, but in the end only the FIA protects the independent teams in Formula 1."
And what about his problems with his cars?
"Paul has known about the new bodywork regulations since September 6 2004 - in fact his team voted for them that day in common with all the other teams. We understand that he has the latest bodywork in Melbourne, even if he has not yet tested it fully. We also understand that at least three teams would object to him running outside the regulations (which it is also our job to enforce). If he decides not to run, we think it unlikely that the Melbourne organisers will seek compensation from him."
The following from a media conference today in Melbourne with Max Mosely is very apt;
__________________________________
Finally, what's your reaction to Paul Stoddart as the Formula 1 shop steward?
"I think Paul is a bit too trusting, even naive. One or two team principals who now pretend to be his best friends are the same individuals who tried to grab his Minardi money a couple of years ago. They were only stopped because the FIA insisted he should get what was due to him. They then said Paul had no place in Formula 1. They are using him now, but will turn on him as soon as it suits them. Paul is doing the best he can, but in the end only the FIA protects the independent teams in Formula 1."
And what about his problems with his cars?
"Paul has known about the new bodywork regulations since September 6 2004 - in fact his team voted for them that day in common with all the other teams. We understand that he has the latest bodywork in Melbourne, even if he has not yet tested it fully. We also understand that at least three teams would object to him running outside the regulations (which it is also our job to enforce). If he decides not to run, we think it unlikely that the Melbourne organisers will seek compensation from him."
Touringfan said:
Well said.
The following from a media conference today in Melbourne with Max Mosely is very apt;
__________________________________
Finally, what's your reaction to Paul Stoddart as the Formula 1 shop steward?
"I think Paul is a bit too trusting, even naive. One or two team principals who now pretend to be his best friends are the same individuals who tried to grab his Minardi money a couple of years ago. They were only stopped because the FIA insisted he should get what was due to him. They then said Paul had no place in Formula 1. They are using him now, but will turn on him as soon as it suits them. Paul is doing the best he can, but in the end only the FIA protects the independent teams in Formula 1."
And what about his problems with his cars?
"Paul has known about the new bodywork regulations since September 6 2004 - in fact his team voted for them that day in common with all the other teams. We understand that he has the latest bodywork in Melbourne, even if he has not yet tested it fully. We also understand that at least three teams would object to him running outside the regulations (which it is also our job to enforce). If he decides not to run, we think it unlikely that the Melbourne organisers will seek compensation from him."
max talking sense!?
shurely shome mishtake?!
;-)
and STILL he - stoddart - insists on disturbing all the other teams who are focused on trying to run their serious businesses and to do their best in the race. doesn't he realise that the last thing the teams need right now is him repeatedly haranguing them as a result of his own ego and incompetence - they all have their own concerns for goodness sake. looks like his antics have well and truly backfired on him. good.
from itvf1:
MINARDI MISSES PRACTICE
Last Updated: Friday, 04, March, 2005, 07:21
UPDATE: Minardi boss Paul Stoddart is set to take legal action to overturn a stewards' decision barring his team from taking part in the Australian GP with 2004-spec cars.
Stoddart needed the unanimous agreement of the other nine teams but had been blocked by Ferrari, with the result that both Minardis were confined to the garage throughout Friday. Stoddart will now seek redress in the courts.
He said: "We had a very fair hearing from the stewards. With a heavy heart they've decided against us. I compliment the stewards on their fairness.
"But it leaves us now with only two options, one of which is to seek injunctive relief against the stewards' decision, not against this event, and the other to try and modify the car overnight.
"We are going to seek the legal remedy. We think we have prepared a watertight case. What I can say is that under no circumstances will we seek to disrupt this event in any shape or form."
Minardi does have an aerodynamic kit that conforms with the 2005 regulations available at Melbourne this weekend, but it is untested. The team will attempt to ready the cars with the new bodywork this evening in case it loses its court battle.
The unseemly saga over Minardi’s participation in the Australian GP rumbled on even as first practice got underway at Melbourne’s Albert Park circuit.
Paul Stoddart now concedes that he is unlikely to be able to find a way out of the impasse and his team may have to pack up and go home.
The sticking point appears to be that Ferrari will not withdraw its opposition to Minardi taking part until the team obtains a prior stamp of approval from governing body the FIA – a move which Stoddart regards as nothing more than political gamesmanship.
Speaking to reporters, Stoddart said: “Jean Todt told me he will not be signing a piece of paper from me at all, but that he would do so if it came officially from [FIA race director] Charlie Whiting. We are just a victim of political games.”
Stoddart vowed to continue lobbying his fellow team bosses in a last-ditch effort to secure a reprieve, but admitted his chances were “bad, really bad”.
--
well, at least the cars are running in earnest now and we can focus on that. i for one will not say any more on the minardi matter(!) now we have some real f1 action to focus on.
nice to see nick heidfeld going so well and i must say the red bull looks a very pretty and reasonably effective car. should be an interesting race. fingers crossed for jenson but i bet the honda's will inevitably go bang(!).
enjoy!
from itvf1:
MINARDI MISSES PRACTICE
Last Updated: Friday, 04, March, 2005, 07:21
UPDATE: Minardi boss Paul Stoddart is set to take legal action to overturn a stewards' decision barring his team from taking part in the Australian GP with 2004-spec cars.
Stoddart needed the unanimous agreement of the other nine teams but had been blocked by Ferrari, with the result that both Minardis were confined to the garage throughout Friday. Stoddart will now seek redress in the courts.
He said: "We had a very fair hearing from the stewards. With a heavy heart they've decided against us. I compliment the stewards on their fairness.
"But it leaves us now with only two options, one of which is to seek injunctive relief against the stewards' decision, not against this event, and the other to try and modify the car overnight.
"We are going to seek the legal remedy. We think we have prepared a watertight case. What I can say is that under no circumstances will we seek to disrupt this event in any shape or form."
Minardi does have an aerodynamic kit that conforms with the 2005 regulations available at Melbourne this weekend, but it is untested. The team will attempt to ready the cars with the new bodywork this evening in case it loses its court battle.
The unseemly saga over Minardi’s participation in the Australian GP rumbled on even as first practice got underway at Melbourne’s Albert Park circuit.
Paul Stoddart now concedes that he is unlikely to be able to find a way out of the impasse and his team may have to pack up and go home.
The sticking point appears to be that Ferrari will not withdraw its opposition to Minardi taking part until the team obtains a prior stamp of approval from governing body the FIA – a move which Stoddart regards as nothing more than political gamesmanship.
Speaking to reporters, Stoddart said: “Jean Todt told me he will not be signing a piece of paper from me at all, but that he would do so if it came officially from [FIA race director] Charlie Whiting. We are just a victim of political games.”
Stoddart vowed to continue lobbying his fellow team bosses in a last-ditch effort to secure a reprieve, but admitted his chances were “bad, really bad”.
--
well, at least the cars are running in earnest now and we can focus on that. i for one will not say any more on the minardi matter(!) now we have some real f1 action to focus on.
nice to see nick heidfeld going so well and i must say the red bull looks a very pretty and reasonably effective car. should be an interesting race. fingers crossed for jenson but i bet the honda's will inevitably go bang(!).
enjoy!
Its worth reading todays reports at www.grandprix.com where it becomes clear why Stoddart made such a fuss about the 2004 cars.
His aim would appear to be to prove that the sport should be run in accordance with the Concorde Agreement, and that the 2005 rules were not brought in under that agreement.
Bearing in mind he had 2005 spec parts with him, my suspicion is that the other team owners have put him up to this, to show the FIA and Ecclestone that they do have some power, and to prove a point.
Its interesting that the FIA are now threatening not to run events in Australia if the law of the country can overturn their rules. As is pointed out by a number of people Australian law is similar to a number of other countries so this is a dangerous game to play.
Seems that the FIA, Bernie and the teams should get together, allow bygones to be bygones and sort out a fair way of rewarding people for taking part in F1.
Surely all that is needed is a publicy announced prize winning table, plus a publically announced amount based on time served in F1. There is no reason why one team should get extra money, just because of who it is. Well not in this day and age anyway.
The viewing public want to see a sport, not where one member has all the advantages.
His aim would appear to be to prove that the sport should be run in accordance with the Concorde Agreement, and that the 2005 rules were not brought in under that agreement.
Bearing in mind he had 2005 spec parts with him, my suspicion is that the other team owners have put him up to this, to show the FIA and Ecclestone that they do have some power, and to prove a point.
Its interesting that the FIA are now threatening not to run events in Australia if the law of the country can overturn their rules. As is pointed out by a number of people Australian law is similar to a number of other countries so this is a dangerous game to play.
Seems that the FIA, Bernie and the teams should get together, allow bygones to be bygones and sort out a fair way of rewarding people for taking part in F1.
Surely all that is needed is a publicy announced prize winning table, plus a publically announced amount based on time served in F1. There is no reason why one team should get extra money, just because of who it is. Well not in this day and age anyway.
The viewing public want to see a sport, not where one member has all the advantages.
Like I said...he was just grandstanding all the time. Trying to make a point and "big himself up".
Strange how he has gone from saying its impossible to run his cars in 2005 spec, to all of a sudden being able to do so!
Hes a jerk and as Bernie was quoted as saying today....he should leave F1.
Strange how he has gone from saying its impossible to run his cars in 2005 spec, to all of a sudden being able to do so!
Hes a jerk and as Bernie was quoted as saying today....he should leave F1.
Touringfan said:
Like I said...he was just grandstanding all the time. Trying to make a point and "big himself up".
Strange how he has gone from saying its impossible to run his cars in 2005 spec, to all of a sudden being able to do so!
Hes a jerk and as Bernie was quoted as saying today....he should leave F1.
absolutely. he's pitiful to watch - just looking at his body manner and his eyes i wouldn't trust him one inch. oh, bugger, i did say i would desist from commenting on this tiresome stoddart pillock, now that we have real racing to focus on.
ah, well ... is nice to see he's been shown to be a bullshitter and not fit to be running an f1 team.
minardi deserves much better. surely there must be a suitable, serious, potential buyer out there? with fag associations dying and the injection of new teams, it's time minardi had some decent leadership/funding?
interesting to see bernie now come out all guns blazing; saying what most people think - in effect, "we're all sick and tired of this - you are always moaning - if you can't afford to play, get out of the game."
also, rightly, bernie has slammed him for cheapening the carefully crafted image of f1 - f1 is all about money, design, technology, glamour, competition, branding, global reach, etc - so, he should sell the team and get out. sell it to someone with budget, focus and professionalism to do it properly.
stoddart makes f1 look like a dispute at the village fete, with rival women's institute members squabbling over their prize winning chutneys.
how clever of stoddart - in one fell swoop he has made himself and his team look utterly foolish and liars to - a) his local "fans" in australia, b) the fia, c) f1 fans globally, d) bernie, e) the media, f) the legal system in australia - that's really going to get the sponsors rolling in, isn't it!?
how to make friends and influence people. NOT!
doh!
on a cherrier note, i predict a well deserved fisi win tomorrow! wonder why button was so cautious on his 1st qualifying lap? good to see the red bull acquit itself rather well. i was annoyed when ford abandoned jaguar and cosworth but fingers crossed all seems promising for the new team. points for DC tomorrow? wouldn't be surprised.
It seems that some people are falling for the "all is rosy in the F1 camp". Simple fact is that it is not. Yes both Jaguar and Jordan have been sold so it might appear that all is well however I wouldn't be so convinced.
Max Mosley seemed to imply that Stoddart was doing other peoples dirtywork for them and I have no doubt that this is true.
In addition whatever Bernie says I bet he is delighted about the action taken by Stoddart. After all what has the result been? F1 on the front pages of the newpapers, F1 on the news reports. There is no way F1 would have got all this publicity without Stoddartsactivity. Irrespective of what anyone says any publicity is good publicity. There will be far more people watching F1 this weekend than there would have been without this "row".
Max Mosley seemed to imply that Stoddart was doing other peoples dirtywork for them and I have no doubt that this is true.
In addition whatever Bernie says I bet he is delighted about the action taken by Stoddart. After all what has the result been? F1 on the front pages of the newpapers, F1 on the news reports. There is no way F1 would have got all this publicity without Stoddartsactivity. Irrespective of what anyone says any publicity is good publicity. There will be far more people watching F1 this weekend than there would have been without this "row".
Sorry, Stodart had a motive that none of us know what it was or understand. He has made Max look stupid, Stodarts better lawyers have made the FIA look stupid and the only way the FIA can respond is by throwing it toys out of its pram and threaten not to go to Oz again. (They still go to Italy where team managers get man slaughter charges against them) Stodart is at last shaking up the FIA/Bernie who have overstayed there welcome. GO Minardi/Stodart Go!!!!!!!.
Your kidding, right?
You actually think its good that team owners take their dispute about the ineligibility of their cars to a local court the day before the race meeting and have a judge decide? And, even worse, without any representation in court from the FIA or any other officials?
I really don't think you have thought the consequences of that one through, at all.
Stoddart was right out of order to try that stunt and when the FIA called his bluff he realised the consequences and stupidity of it and withdrew it.
The guy is a jerk and even Bernie, (who was one of his greatest supporters and even gave him a lot of money when his back was up against the wall) has now stated that Stiddart is a nuisance and should leave F1.
And the sooner the better.
You actually think its good that team owners take their dispute about the ineligibility of their cars to a local court the day before the race meeting and have a judge decide? And, even worse, without any representation in court from the FIA or any other officials?
I really don't think you have thought the consequences of that one through, at all.
Stoddart was right out of order to try that stunt and when the FIA called his bluff he realised the consequences and stupidity of it and withdrew it.
The guy is a jerk and even Bernie, (who was one of his greatest supporters and even gave him a lot of money when his back was up against the wall) has now stated that Stiddart is a nuisance and should leave F1.
And the sooner the better.
I don't know the Australian legal system, but as I knew that Minardi might take legal action I would have thought that Max would have known this too, and could have had someone to represent them in court - unless, of course, he knew he would lose anyway.
This is quite possibly about whether or not the rule changes are within the Concorde agreement, and maybe the FIA not being represented in court tells us the answer to that one.......
PJS917 - I also apologise, gave me a good laugh to see the result from practice and realise why Ferrari were worried about Minardi!! Beaten by the 2005 spec car, just think what the one with higher levels of downforce could have done - it might have beaten both the red cars.
This is quite possibly about whether or not the rule changes are within the Concorde agreement, and maybe the FIA not being represented in court tells us the answer to that one.......
PJS917 - I also apologise, gave me a good laugh to see the result from practice and realise why Ferrari were worried about Minardi!! Beaten by the 2005 spec car, just think what the one with higher levels of downforce could have done - it might have beaten both the red cars.
The legal system is the same as here. He saught an emergency injuction. an injunction is only heard put forward by the complainant. the other party is not even invited to the proceedings!
And if the new regulations were against the concorde agreement, and therefore illegal, do you really think all the other teams would have gone along with them? of course not.
stoddart is being used as a stooge in the politcal battle between bernie and the GPWC to try and create as much unrest as possible.
And if the new regulations were against the concorde agreement, and therefore illegal, do you really think all the other teams would have gone along with them? of course not.
stoddart is being used as a stooge in the politcal battle between bernie and the GPWC to try and create as much unrest as possible.
Eric Mc said:
And the whole episode is an overall inictment of the state of mind of most of the protagonists of those involved in modern F1.
true. delighted as i am for fisi and red bull, grief it was a dull race. once again, the promises of bizarre rules changes to give "better action" today seem to ring somewhat hollow. wish i'd stayed in bed!!
what's to be done?
hi ho.
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