What would the guy in 2nd place in Brazil do?

[flemke]

If Alonso were to win in Brazil, and Hamilton were to finish third, Alonso would take the title on the basis of having had more wins. If Hamilton were to finish second, he would take the title.

No angle here, just curious:

Does anyone think that any driver on the grid, were he to find himself in the last few laps running 2nd between Alonso leading and Hamilton just behind in 3rd, would intentionally run wide or ease subtly in order to enable Hamilton to overtake him and secure the title?

[flemke]

RedexRob said:

Raikkonnen is staying at Fer but is a bloomin robot so it wouldn,t cross his mind , Massa is about to re-sign to Ferrari so no McLaren deal looming for him , I can,t see either of them moving over , personally I read it like this , Alonso knocks Ham off at the first corner in the wet and Ferrari clean up , I don,t want that to happen but I really can see Alonso doing this in his current frame of mind. There could be fireworks in the McLaren pits on Sunday afternoon...

That would surprise me.
Admittedly, Alonso has surprised many of us this year with his amateurish antics.
In this case, however, he will have thought this through a hundred times.

Alonso may not be a nice guy, but he is a very calculating driver. As long as he has even one chance in a million of taking the title, he will focus on making that happen. Initiating a crash with any other car would preclude his own chances, full stop.

[flemke]

trackdemon said:

IMO there was a time maybe 30 years ago when it would have been concievable for that to happen: nobody could watch the car in the way its possible to nowadays, furthermore I dont think there was the points-at-all-costs mentality there is now, and dare I say it a more gentlemanly approach to the sport.... so in extremis I could see it happening were this 1977 (not that'd we'd know till the autobiography was written!) but I doubt it'd happen nowadays. It'd be too obvious, the drivers need every last point, there may be some degree of camaraderie between those competing in the worlds toughest motorsport but it sure doesn't extend to handing over points to influence a championship.

A slightly different approach to the 'problem' though (and at risk of contradicting myself ) : I love the idea of JB having 'an incident' with Alonso...... you know: he's being lapped (by FA), he's still fighting for position, its wet, these modern F1 cars are sooo critical on the limit.... ooops sorry Fernando

The times indeed have been a-changin'.
I don't know that it would happen nowadays, but I am not sure that it is inconceivable that it could happen.
I don't see a scenario such as that in which a smaller team is using a bigger team's engines, and has been pressurised to help out the bigger team (as has apparently happened more than once in the last few years.)
Also, I don't see a scenario in which a young thrusting driver is trying to ingratiate himself with Ron, and takes out Alonso in an attempt to do so (which strategem I suspect would backfire anyhow).

I can, however imagine that an older, established driver, with little to lose, whose team's position in the Constructors' had already been settled, and who personally either liked Hamilton or disapproved of Alonso, might do that sort of thing on his own. Maybe a Coulthard, a Button, Heidfeld, Ralfie, Barrichello, someone like that. I would not be shocked, either, if Frank Williams were to have a word with one of his drivers...

[flemke]

spectatorsam said:

massa on home soil, hot favourite
kimmi second
I think for mclaren to win this one ferrari have to fcuk up BIG time, and as I understand from previous posts on this, if massa wins and KR is 2nd, the title is his

Er, not if Hamilton is 3rd, or 4th, or 5th, or 6th.
Or not if Alonso is 3rd.

[flemke]

Galileo said:

To answer the question, I think that there isn't a Racer on the planet that would concede second place to anybody for any reason, except team orders etc.
Being in a position to maybe win, if the guy in front has trouble? I wouldn't move over even if Jesus Christ himself were behind me. Letting someone beat you means your not a racer and would never have been able to work your way to the top.

I'll accept the proposition that, in order to have reached the level of F1 driver, it helps to have had one or two personality defects, but I think you'll find that the actual individuals are not one-dimensional robots who are incapable of having more than a single motivation.

[flemke]

Galileo said:

flemke said:

Galileo said:

To answer the question, I think that there isn't a Racer on the planet that would concede second place to anybody for any reason, except team orders etc.
Being in a position to maybe win, if the guy in front has trouble? I wouldn't move over even if Jesus Christ himself were behind me. Letting someone beat you means your not a racer and would never have been able to work your way to the top.

I'll accept the proposition that, in order to have reached the level of F1 driver, it helps to have had one or two personality defects, but I think you'll find that the actual individuals are not one-dimensional robots who are incapable of having more than a single motivation.

I take it you've never raced?

Then you take it wrong.

Galileo said:

Name one driver on the grid that you think would hold Hamilton's title chances above a potential race win. Any driver looking maybe to curry favour with Ron for next year? What do you think Ron would think of him. I think he would go down in Ron's estimation as a potential winner and champion. Moving over for Hamilton would do damage to a drivers reputation. And they would know that. So if anything I think anybody in second place would drive the race of their lives to stay in front of Hamilton to show the world how good they are.

I won't waste people's time by repeating what I wrote earlier in this thread, which addressed the points that you raise. Of course you are welcome to say that what I suggested might be possible is actually impossible. The reason I started the thread was to stimulate discussion.

I listed the names of five drivers amongst whom there might well be one or two who would cede to another driver for personal reasons.
If they were only half-way through the race, so that the guy in 2nd really might have a chance to win, that would be one thing. If however, there were one or two laps remaining, with Alonso enjoying a fat lead over the 2nd place car, with Hamilton on his heels in 3rd, it would be a different matter.

There absolutely have been cases in which an F1 driver or team principal made the decision to give way to or favour a rival. This empirical fact is part of why I say that the conventional wisdom that racing drivers are obsessed with winning to the complete exclusion of any other impulse is simply mistaken. To win is by far their greatest motivation, but not the only one for every last driver.

[flemke]

Galileo said:

You have indeed named five drivers that you think are capable of moving over, but unless I mis-read, you've failed to explain what you think their motivation would be other than their thinking that Alonso is a cad. I'm of the opinion that that is not motivation enough to give up second place and (lets face it the race is not over till they cross the line) risk loosing a win. I think that they wouldn't move over, and stated that I think it would ultimately hurt their reputation as a racing driver.

Galileo,

I was indeed suggesting that dislike of one competitor, or affinity towards another, could in extreme circumstances influence a professional sufficiently to induce him to make it that bit easier for someone to overtake and secure 2nd place. I say "could" - obviously I do not know enough to predict anything, but I do know that there are related precedents.
Agreed that the race is not over until the line is crossed, but on numerous occasions the winner has already crossed the line to complete the last lap whilst the guys back in 2nd and 3rd are still battling for 2nd finishing position.

Cheers.