Ferrari F430 Spider
Discussion
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142101454-post2.h...
fchat said:
Andrea Taurino at Taurino Racing here in U.S. (down here in Florida) is offering affordable replacements CCM rotors for the F430, 360CS, Scuderia, 16M, 458, and the F430C/458C. These are units built better than the ones supplied by Brembo, and their price more affordable. A little over 2x the price of steel rotors.
However, no matter how affordable these CCM rotors are, they will never offer the cost/benefit of steel rotors.
On the Ferrari Challenge, the front rotors are replaced every 2 race weekends, and rear rotors every 3 race weekends, so the front rotors life is in between 12 hours and 15 hours.
On the street cars (360CS, F430, Scuderia, 16M, 458), these rotors will last for a long time, think more than 100,000 miles easily. But once the street cars are driven on racetracks, or driven on public roads at European speeds (not the U.S. 55mph speed limit), the wear comes into place.
The CCM rotors in Ferrari/Lamborghini/Audi/Mercedes/Aston/Chevy are all the same in construction. Only Porsche uses a different construction that lasts twice as long as our CCM rotors (for track use), Porsche advertised their PCCB are good for 186,000 miles (300.000 kms).
Based on my continuous measurement of CCM rotor weight, physical inspection, and their printed new weight and minimum weight, I have been able to estimate their life with track use. In my specific use, the stock Scuderia front rotors are good for 24-30 track hours, while the rear rotors are good for 48-60 track hours. This is valid for my use where I do cool down laps, I don't abuse the brakes once they start fading from overheating (yes, I have reached those limits with the Scuderia), I use track specific brake pads that are benign on the rotors, and I use the best quality brake fluids.
For people bringing their cars to racetracks, and typically not aware of the care these CCM rotors need, they will get less than 24 track hours on the front rotors.
The reason my rear rotors last twice as long is that I run with CST-OFF, so I don't get the extra wear caused by the Sport/Race/CT-OFF systems.
On a 458 Italia, I would expect a brake wear increase of 20%, given the near 400 lbs of weight carried by the U.S. version 458, the extra power, and the closer ratios transmission, bringing the car to higher speeds, having to slow down more mass, and at a lower speeds (the Scuderia carries more minimum speed on a corner).
I switched to Steel rotors last year, thanks to the amazing work Girodisc is doing.
Martin Meade (Girodisc's owner) is a great car enthusiast, and the engineering quality on his products is impressive. I inquired Martin about brakes for the Scuderia back in 2009, he was on the early stages of development, today he offers steel brake replacements for the 360 Challenge Stradale, F430, 430 Scuderia, 16M, 458 Italia, 430 Challenge, and pretty soon 458 Challenge.
The prices of Girodisc steel rotors have come down since last year, and when new rotors are needed, you don't need to pay for new centers, you can swap the rotor rims yourself, or send your old ones to Girodisc and have them serviced, even cheaper than the complete rotor assembly.
One advantage of the Girodisc steel rotors, the front Scuderia rotors move up from 398mm to 405mm, and they are thicker than the stock CCM rotors, so less heat on the front rotors which is a problem with the 360CS, Scuderia, Italia and 16M.
I weighed the steel rotors, and the kit added near 50 lbs of total unsprung weight, but my lap times have gone faster, as the braking is more consistent compared to CCM rotors with more than 70% wear on them.
I'm too lazy to spend 4-6 hours to switch between CCB rotors and steel rotors. I like the steel rotors a lot for track use, plus I'm not afraid to work hard on my brakes when running steel rotors. When I track my car with CCM rotors, I'm always trying to manage and take care of them, but when I track my car with steel rotors I don't even think about brake wear, I just focus on all other important things.
There is a nice variety of track brake pads for these Girodisc steel rotors, for CCM rotors the brake pad options are scarce and more expensive.
There are other factors that increase/decrease brake rotors life, the racetrack layout, the air temperature, the length of the track sessions, the type of tires used, and the one with the most influence: the driver's skill. A slow driver gets longer life on his brake rotors (CCM or steel) than a fast driver."
50lb / ~22.6Kg of additional unsprung weight is not something I would be happy with on my road car. However, no matter how affordable these CCM rotors are, they will never offer the cost/benefit of steel rotors.
On the Ferrari Challenge, the front rotors are replaced every 2 race weekends, and rear rotors every 3 race weekends, so the front rotors life is in between 12 hours and 15 hours.
On the street cars (360CS, F430, Scuderia, 16M, 458), these rotors will last for a long time, think more than 100,000 miles easily. But once the street cars are driven on racetracks, or driven on public roads at European speeds (not the U.S. 55mph speed limit), the wear comes into place.
The CCM rotors in Ferrari/Lamborghini/Audi/Mercedes/Aston/Chevy are all the same in construction. Only Porsche uses a different construction that lasts twice as long as our CCM rotors (for track use), Porsche advertised their PCCB are good for 186,000 miles (300.000 kms).
Based on my continuous measurement of CCM rotor weight, physical inspection, and their printed new weight and minimum weight, I have been able to estimate their life with track use. In my specific use, the stock Scuderia front rotors are good for 24-30 track hours, while the rear rotors are good for 48-60 track hours. This is valid for my use where I do cool down laps, I don't abuse the brakes once they start fading from overheating (yes, I have reached those limits with the Scuderia), I use track specific brake pads that are benign on the rotors, and I use the best quality brake fluids.
For people bringing their cars to racetracks, and typically not aware of the care these CCM rotors need, they will get less than 24 track hours on the front rotors.
The reason my rear rotors last twice as long is that I run with CST-OFF, so I don't get the extra wear caused by the Sport/Race/CT-OFF systems.
On a 458 Italia, I would expect a brake wear increase of 20%, given the near 400 lbs of weight carried by the U.S. version 458, the extra power, and the closer ratios transmission, bringing the car to higher speeds, having to slow down more mass, and at a lower speeds (the Scuderia carries more minimum speed on a corner).
I switched to Steel rotors last year, thanks to the amazing work Girodisc is doing.
Martin Meade (Girodisc's owner) is a great car enthusiast, and the engineering quality on his products is impressive. I inquired Martin about brakes for the Scuderia back in 2009, he was on the early stages of development, today he offers steel brake replacements for the 360 Challenge Stradale, F430, 430 Scuderia, 16M, 458 Italia, 430 Challenge, and pretty soon 458 Challenge.
The prices of Girodisc steel rotors have come down since last year, and when new rotors are needed, you don't need to pay for new centers, you can swap the rotor rims yourself, or send your old ones to Girodisc and have them serviced, even cheaper than the complete rotor assembly.
One advantage of the Girodisc steel rotors, the front Scuderia rotors move up from 398mm to 405mm, and they are thicker than the stock CCM rotors, so less heat on the front rotors which is a problem with the 360CS, Scuderia, Italia and 16M.
I weighed the steel rotors, and the kit added near 50 lbs of total unsprung weight, but my lap times have gone faster, as the braking is more consistent compared to CCM rotors with more than 70% wear on them.
I'm too lazy to spend 4-6 hours to switch between CCB rotors and steel rotors. I like the steel rotors a lot for track use, plus I'm not afraid to work hard on my brakes when running steel rotors. When I track my car with CCM rotors, I'm always trying to manage and take care of them, but when I track my car with steel rotors I don't even think about brake wear, I just focus on all other important things.
There is a nice variety of track brake pads for these Girodisc steel rotors, for CCM rotors the brake pad options are scarce and more expensive.
There are other factors that increase/decrease brake rotors life, the racetrack layout, the air temperature, the length of the track sessions, the type of tires used, and the one with the most influence: the driver's skill. A slow driver gets longer life on his brake rotors (CCM or steel) than a fast driver."
thebraketester said:
Sounds like a hell of a lot... are you sure those numbers are correct. As a comparison. 362mm AP racing 2 piece disc and bell weighs 8.5kg.
At a guess the OEM disc (330mm??) would weight roughly 10-12kg
I agree it does for just discs, especially given the GiroDiscs have alloy bells too! The poster seems pretty clued-up though...At a guess the OEM disc (330mm??) would weight roughly 10-12kg
Edited by thebraketester on Tuesday 13th October 11:33
Thank you.
Carbon Fuel Cap
I'd mentioned in a previous post that I wasn't keen on exposed carbon fibre on a Silverstone car, however seeing the car in sunlight this summer made me realise the paint is just about light enough to make it work. I have my eye on carbon side skirts and fuel cap, but before paying the extortionate Ferrari prices, I bought a copy fuel cap to test.
It's made really well.
1x1 weave.
I was pleased with the test fit so I'll go ahead and order an OEM flap.
BMC Air Filters
These are often advertised as part of a tuning package for the F430 (cats, filters, Scuderia air box lids, and tune), so I thought I'd fit a pair.
...and this is where the fun started. When removing the airbox lids to remove the OEM filters, I noticed a witness mark on the left-hand airbox lid. Not good. The BMC filters are slightly taller than OEM which compounded the problem and meant the engine lid couldn't close.
I decided to see if I could lower the entire airbox assembly in the engine bay; it is supported on vibration damping mounts. The airbox mounting flange is represented by the green line:
I tried the box with a set of radiator mounts from a Mk3 Fiesta; with this type of mount the airbox mounting flange sits lower down, again illustrated by the green line:
The above didn't work due to a lack of clearance between the airbox and chassis, but it was then I then noticed something; the airbox air filter mounting was not straight. It's difficult to see in the photo, but the left hand side isn't true and rises up to a point 5mm above the rest of the flange. Great!
On Monday I'm taking the airbox enclosure to my fabricator to have this manufacturing issue corrected, and at the same time I'll have the air filter mounting flange lowered by 6mm to provide more clearance for the BMC filter/Scuderia airbox combo.
When the airbox comes back I will send it away to be ceramic coated in satin black (same colour as the 16M/Scuderia).
Carbon Fuel Cap
I'd mentioned in a previous post that I wasn't keen on exposed carbon fibre on a Silverstone car, however seeing the car in sunlight this summer made me realise the paint is just about light enough to make it work. I have my eye on carbon side skirts and fuel cap, but before paying the extortionate Ferrari prices, I bought a copy fuel cap to test.
It's made really well.
1x1 weave.
I was pleased with the test fit so I'll go ahead and order an OEM flap.
BMC Air Filters
These are often advertised as part of a tuning package for the F430 (cats, filters, Scuderia air box lids, and tune), so I thought I'd fit a pair.
...and this is where the fun started. When removing the airbox lids to remove the OEM filters, I noticed a witness mark on the left-hand airbox lid. Not good. The BMC filters are slightly taller than OEM which compounded the problem and meant the engine lid couldn't close.
I decided to see if I could lower the entire airbox assembly in the engine bay; it is supported on vibration damping mounts. The airbox mounting flange is represented by the green line:
I tried the box with a set of radiator mounts from a Mk3 Fiesta; with this type of mount the airbox mounting flange sits lower down, again illustrated by the green line:
The above didn't work due to a lack of clearance between the airbox and chassis, but it was then I then noticed something; the airbox air filter mounting was not straight. It's difficult to see in the photo, but the left hand side isn't true and rises up to a point 5mm above the rest of the flange. Great!
On Monday I'm taking the airbox enclosure to my fabricator to have this manufacturing issue corrected, and at the same time I'll have the air filter mounting flange lowered by 6mm to provide more clearance for the BMC filter/Scuderia airbox combo.
When the airbox comes back I will send it away to be ceramic coated in satin black (same colour as the 16M/Scuderia).
I'm still collecting parts.
16M/Scuderia MAF sensors
First, some more parts to improve the inlet system: 16M/Scuderia MAF sensor and throttle body connecting bellows. These are approx. 6mm larger in diameter than the stock F430 parts and go hand-in-hand with the high volume air boxes to help reduce any restriction in the inlet system, relative to the flow improvements from the improved exhaust manifolds.
I have planned some work on the actual inlet manifold itself and then I'll take the car to DMS for a remap.
16M/Scuderia Side Skirt
I was impressed with the replica carbon fuel flap but the 16M skirts are still a way off, so in the mean time I'll go with some standard skirts; I've found the O/S genuine Ferrari 16/Scuderia skirt, so just the N/S to go.
16M/Scuderia MAF sensors
First, some more parts to improve the inlet system: 16M/Scuderia MAF sensor and throttle body connecting bellows. These are approx. 6mm larger in diameter than the stock F430 parts and go hand-in-hand with the high volume air boxes to help reduce any restriction in the inlet system, relative to the flow improvements from the improved exhaust manifolds.
I have planned some work on the actual inlet manifold itself and then I'll take the car to DMS for a remap.
16M/Scuderia Side Skirt
I was impressed with the replica carbon fuel flap but the 16M skirts are still a way off, so in the mean time I'll go with some standard skirts; I've found the O/S genuine Ferrari 16/Scuderia skirt, so just the N/S to go.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 11:41
johnfm said:
Check out Schermerhorn (often on the BMW forum) - re: SICOM carbon disc refurb. Looks like a very good quality product.
Thank you. I'm considering going that route if I can find some cheap worn discs (F430 challenge probably).Trexthedinosaur said:
Can we see some more full car pictures ....
Level of detail is amazing.
Thank you. These are probably the best I have:Level of detail is amazing.
thebraketester said:
Do you have to have the ECU remapped when adding those larger MAF housings?
Yes, you do. I'm going with DMS as their development process was supposedly lengthly and involved the E-Diff software. Gains for an otherwise stock F430 are a claimed 42Bhp (8.6%) and 35Lb/Ft (10.2%). One of the first people to have it done at DMS has over 49k miles without issue; see http://ferrarichat.com/forum/united-kingdom/295092...
Aftermarket exhaust manifolds without pre-cats take an otherwise stock F430 from 483bhp to ~505bhp, so in conjunction with my induction changes, the manifolds, and a DMS remap, I hope to be in the reigon of 550Bhp.
Stock 16M = 503Bhp / 1440kg = 349.31 BHP per tonne.
Stock F430 = 483Bhp / 1520kg = 317.76 BHP per tonne.
I think I can loose 35kg with the carbon seats, 10kg with the light weight Scuderia bumpers and undertrays, 15kg from the exhaust, and 6kg with the 16M suspension and titainium ARBs. Result:
550bhp / 1454kg = 378.27 BHP per tonne.
Let's see...
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 11:47
Quick update on the airbox modification: I'm not doing it.
I'd been researching the 16M engine lid (part #81618111), originally in the hope it had a larger duck tail spoiler than the regular spider - as per the Scuderia compared withj the regular Berlinetta - but it didn't.
16M
F430 Spider
Curious to see what other differences there were I started looking at the parts system and from there I noted that the bolt-on grille brackets are different to suit the 16M mesh type, but nothing else was. Next stop photos of the underside to compare the structural sections to determine if any weight saving measures had been taken, but nope - none. It was then I noticed something: looking at a stock spider engine bay underside the purple arrows indicate the areas above the witness mark on my L/H/S carbon airbox lid.
Compare that to the 16M lid and it becomes obvious that the offending section frame structure has been scalloped to provide clearance to the larger cabon airbox lids.
Curiously, the 16M lid (#81618111) at £1,904.30 ex VAT is much cheaper than the regular lid (#68413111) at £2,359.33ex VAT!
I will go ahead and modify my engine lid but leave the airbox alone, aside from the ceramic coating.
I'd been researching the 16M engine lid (part #81618111), originally in the hope it had a larger duck tail spoiler than the regular spider - as per the Scuderia compared withj the regular Berlinetta - but it didn't.
16M
F430 Spider
Curious to see what other differences there were I started looking at the parts system and from there I noted that the bolt-on grille brackets are different to suit the 16M mesh type, but nothing else was. Next stop photos of the underside to compare the structural sections to determine if any weight saving measures had been taken, but nope - none. It was then I noticed something: looking at a stock spider engine bay underside the purple arrows indicate the areas above the witness mark on my L/H/S carbon airbox lid.
Compare that to the 16M lid and it becomes obvious that the offending section frame structure has been scalloped to provide clearance to the larger cabon airbox lids.
Curiously, the 16M lid (#81618111) at £1,904.30 ex VAT is much cheaper than the regular lid (#68413111) at £2,359.33ex VAT!
I will go ahead and modify my engine lid but leave the airbox alone, aside from the ceramic coating.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 11:51
I tracked down the other MAF. A new OEM part
I also have a new exhaust to suit the 16M/Scuderia bumper. I've never been a fan of the 16/Scuderia exhaust note - it's too harsh - and I think the standard F430 sounds much sweeter. Another thing I don't like about the stock exhaust is the valve system; it's a pneumatic system with completely binary operation, and due to the massive difference in back pressure between the silenced and unsilenced route there’s an awkward transition period between the two.
Something I hope will address all of my gripes is the F430 challenge exhaust: it fits the 16M/Scuderia bumper but is different in that it removes the valves from the system altogether, and relies solely on a small straight-through silencer . There's no doubt it's going to be louder than a stock F430 exhaust with the valves closed, however the pipe exits cross over which helps sweeten the sound, as per the F430 exhaust.
I will polish the silencer and have the tubes ceramic coated. In time I may cut open the box and weld in a Burns stainless crossover, which is more commonly known as an ‘X pipe’; this gives an F430 a high pitched N/A F1 sound.
I also have a new exhaust to suit the 16M/Scuderia bumper. I've never been a fan of the 16/Scuderia exhaust note - it's too harsh - and I think the standard F430 sounds much sweeter. Another thing I don't like about the stock exhaust is the valve system; it's a pneumatic system with completely binary operation, and due to the massive difference in back pressure between the silenced and unsilenced route there’s an awkward transition period between the two.
Something I hope will address all of my gripes is the F430 challenge exhaust: it fits the 16M/Scuderia bumper but is different in that it removes the valves from the system altogether, and relies solely on a small straight-through silencer . There's no doubt it's going to be louder than a stock F430 exhaust with the valves closed, however the pipe exits cross over which helps sweeten the sound, as per the F430 exhaust.
I will polish the silencer and have the tubes ceramic coated. In time I may cut open the box and weld in a Burns stainless crossover, which is more commonly known as an ‘X pipe’; this gives an F430 a high pitched N/A F1 sound.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 11:54
berksboy26 said:
Hi Mark,
Have just found this thread (and read it from the OP) as i am fairly new to PHs.
...
ATB
Alan
Thanks Alan, it sounds like you have a very nice example there - the previous owner kindly ran it in for you Have just found this thread (and read it from the OP) as i am fairly new to PHs.
...
ATB
Alan
I'll be interested to see a photo once you have the wheels painted as I think Rosso can pull off the gold wheels. I'm going to fit the parking sesnors to mine, as after driving it around on the continent I found parking with the roof up would have been a lot easier with them fitted.Cheers,
Mark
chillo said:
Mark,
Very interested in how you get on with DMS, have been looking at re map options for the 430, shame they are only located on the south coast.
I have AP manifolds (removing pre-cat), tubi test pipe (removing main cats) and tubi back box, BMC f1 air filters with carbon air box. The fuelling is ok (a/f is within range, ecu compensating ok) I do get ecu check light after 50miles but just live with it. Problem is that it's just too loud for normal driving! In full attack its mind blowing and the scream is off the scale! I just want to be able to turn it down sometimes, I'm going to re fit the oem back box with a forza switchable remote control for the valves. This will give me always open, always closed or oem opening options etc. The oem back box on the 430 is the same as what is used in the challenge Stradale.
YouTube clip of my 430 chasing a mates M4 in Germany near the ring in summer this year:
http://youtu.be/IM6BX777GPY
It's very loud!
The M4 easily a match on pure acceleration to the 430!
I've not read all the thread, have you changed the ride height or considered it?
I have had scud springs fitted and lowered 25mm with hills 20mm rear and 15mm front spacers and its transformed the car, removed the under steer and it really feels like a go kart now!
problem is its a little too low, I'm going to come back up 10mm (equal to scud ride height). I touch down the rear diffuser a lot! Would love to be able to get hold of some titanium diffuser fins or skids for f1 Sparks!
Simon
Hi Simon,Very interested in how you get on with DMS, have been looking at re map options for the 430, shame they are only located on the south coast.
I have AP manifolds (removing pre-cat), tubi test pipe (removing main cats) and tubi back box, BMC f1 air filters with carbon air box. The fuelling is ok (a/f is within range, ecu compensating ok) I do get ecu check light after 50miles but just live with it. Problem is that it's just too loud for normal driving! In full attack its mind blowing and the scream is off the scale! I just want to be able to turn it down sometimes, I'm going to re fit the oem back box with a forza switchable remote control for the valves. This will give me always open, always closed or oem opening options etc. The oem back box on the 430 is the same as what is used in the challenge Stradale.
YouTube clip of my 430 chasing a mates M4 in Germany near the ring in summer this year:
http://youtu.be/IM6BX777GPY
It's very loud!
The M4 easily a match on pure acceleration to the 430!
I've not read all the thread, have you changed the ride height or considered it?
I have had scud springs fitted and lowered 25mm with hills 20mm rear and 15mm front spacers and its transformed the car, removed the under steer and it really feels like a go kart now!
problem is its a little too low, I'm going to come back up 10mm (equal to scud ride height). I touch down the rear diffuser a lot! Would love to be able to get hold of some titanium diffuser fins or skids for f1 Sparks! Simon
That's pretty loud! I'm considering a pair of 100 cell cats, but even they may be too much for me
I have a fair amount of work planned for the suspension but don't want to go too low, as I will have a carbon rear diffuser.Cheers,
Mark
Two more weight saving modifications.
16M/Scuderia Rear Undertray
For reference here's an F430 undertray.
Here's a 16M/Scuderia tray. The green arrows show the additional access panel which doubles up with the existing oil filter access panel on the F430, now equipped with NACA ducts to feed high pressure air into the lower engine bay, and out through the Scuderia's rear diffuser. The blue arrow shows the revised forward fins that blend in to the Scuderia specific rear diffuser (not pictured).
Importantly, the part is constructed from a carbon fibre type material that at half the thickness is the same strength as the F430 equivalent, which is not especially light. I understand this material was first used on the 360 Challenge Stradale undertrays.
This photo shows just how thin the 16/Scuderia tray is.
Note: Above photos are not of my parts.
Scuderia Luggage Compartment Trim
Like the standard rear diffuser the luggage compartment trim is another area of the car that is surprisingly heavy in the F430. The base needs to be reasonably sturdy for obvious reasons, but it and the rear (bulkhead) sections are made from very heavy compacted fibreboard type material.
For reference here's an F430 like mine equipped with the optional CD changer, which can be seen to the right of the tan leather wheel brace behind the rectangular carpet section topped with two black fastenings. The F430 is trimmed with black carpet.
Now on to the Scuderia type, of which there are three.
1) First, Alcantara trim. This was standard fit on the 16M and optional on the Scuderia Berlinetta (coupe).
2) Next, a Scuderia Berlinetta with optional full trim which constitutes a fully lined compartment in a durable grey fabric. Ferrari were going for a more 'technical' look with the Scuderia models.
3) Finally, the basic Scuderia Berlinetta trim which has a trimmed base and bulkhead and lightweight moulded ABS covers for protection of the wiring loom and chassis leg tops.
All of the options above are available to suit a CD changer.
I decided on the most light-weight option #3 and at the same time will ditch - well, put into storage like I am with all the other parts I remove - the CD changer. I hope the actual material of the floor and bulkhead is lighter than the F430 but I cannot be sure of that until the parts arrive. The eagle eyed will also notice Scuderia models have finishing trims in the bonnet reveal, which at some point I will add to my car.
Here are the parts I've purchased. The material sections need a hoover but I am advised everything is like new, having come from a car that's covered just 1,300Km.
I'll start to put together a table of weight savings and comparisons once I’ve had chance to weigh the relevant parts.
16M/Scuderia Rear Undertray
For reference here's an F430 undertray.
Here's a 16M/Scuderia tray. The green arrows show the additional access panel which doubles up with the existing oil filter access panel on the F430, now equipped with NACA ducts to feed high pressure air into the lower engine bay, and out through the Scuderia's rear diffuser. The blue arrow shows the revised forward fins that blend in to the Scuderia specific rear diffuser (not pictured).
Importantly, the part is constructed from a carbon fibre type material that at half the thickness is the same strength as the F430 equivalent, which is not especially light. I understand this material was first used on the 360 Challenge Stradale undertrays.
This photo shows just how thin the 16/Scuderia tray is.
Note: Above photos are not of my parts.
Scuderia Luggage Compartment Trim
Like the standard rear diffuser the luggage compartment trim is another area of the car that is surprisingly heavy in the F430. The base needs to be reasonably sturdy for obvious reasons, but it and the rear (bulkhead) sections are made from very heavy compacted fibreboard type material.
For reference here's an F430 like mine equipped with the optional CD changer, which can be seen to the right of the tan leather wheel brace behind the rectangular carpet section topped with two black fastenings. The F430 is trimmed with black carpet.
Now on to the Scuderia type, of which there are three.
1) First, Alcantara trim. This was standard fit on the 16M and optional on the Scuderia Berlinetta (coupe).
2) Next, a Scuderia Berlinetta with optional full trim which constitutes a fully lined compartment in a durable grey fabric. Ferrari were going for a more 'technical' look with the Scuderia models.
3) Finally, the basic Scuderia Berlinetta trim which has a trimmed base and bulkhead and lightweight moulded ABS covers for protection of the wiring loom and chassis leg tops.
All of the options above are available to suit a CD changer.
I decided on the most light-weight option #3 and at the same time will ditch - well, put into storage like I am with all the other parts I remove - the CD changer. I hope the actual material of the floor and bulkhead is lighter than the F430 but I cannot be sure of that until the parts arrive. The eagle eyed will also notice Scuderia models have finishing trims in the bonnet reveal, which at some point I will add to my car.
Here are the parts I've purchased. The material sections need a hoover but I am advised everything is like new, having come from a car that's covered just 1,300Km.
I'll start to put together a table of weight savings and comparisons once I’ve had chance to weigh the relevant parts.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 11:58
Another weight-saving modification and the first of many handling changes.
16M/Scuderia Front Anti-Roll Bar
The front anti-roll bar remained unchanged from the 360, to 360S, and through to the F430 Berlinetta & Spider. A unique bar was produced for the Scuderia and my expectation is that it is thinner to adjust handling, and of a light weight construction.
The front bar is too thin to be hollow and retain strength - unlike the Scuderia specific rear bar - so like the Mk2 Scuderia springs I expect it to be made from titanium. I know what to expect with Ferrari prices now and placing economies of scale aside i.e. less Scuderia’s made hence more expensive parts, the price difference between the Scuderia bar and the regular front bar is too great for a change in diameter alone, but I will confirm material in due course.
Here's a photo of a 360/360CS/F430 (Spider and Berlinetta) steel front bar, which is noticeably thicker than the Scuderia version:
16M/Scuderia Front Anti-Roll Bar
The front anti-roll bar remained unchanged from the 360, to 360S, and through to the F430 Berlinetta & Spider. A unique bar was produced for the Scuderia and my expectation is that it is thinner to adjust handling, and of a light weight construction.
The front bar is too thin to be hollow and retain strength - unlike the Scuderia specific rear bar - so like the Mk2 Scuderia springs I expect it to be made from titanium. I know what to expect with Ferrari prices now and placing economies of scale aside i.e. less Scuderia’s made hence more expensive parts, the price difference between the Scuderia bar and the regular front bar is too great for a change in diameter alone, but I will confirm material in due course.
Here's a photo of a 360/360CS/F430 (Spider and Berlinetta) steel front bar, which is noticeably thicker than the Scuderia version:
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 12:03
In continuation of my quest to build a 16M replica I have purcahsed a 16M iPod.
The 16M has an iPod Touch integrated into the dash. The iPod sits inside a plastic cartridge, which is housed within a 16M/iPod specific carbon dashboard moulding.
The Touch is a bit dated now so I will only convert my car if I can modify the cartridge and iPod interface to integrate a more up-to-date device.
The 16M has an iPod Touch integrated into the dash. The iPod sits inside a plastic cartridge, which is housed within a 16M/iPod specific carbon dashboard moulding.
The Touch is a bit dated now so I will only convert my car if I can modify the cartridge and iPod interface to integrate a more up-to-date device.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 12:05
It has been a productive week for parts gathering!
16M/Scuderia Front CCM Calipers and Pads
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and designed to fit behind stock wheels. Given I am upgrading, it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge system is available. The system uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells and is advertised by Ferrari as fitting only behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels, which are 8J width at the front compared to 7.5J for stock and and Scuderia 'style' wheels, however this is unverified and at least one owner has the Scud brakes behind 'style' wheels.
The F430 and 16M/Scuderia calipers don't use dust seals which is a good thing for performance work as I don't think any of the manufacturers have managed to make a dust seal that withstands high heat and doesn’t crack, but the downside is that the stock aluminium pistons can suffer corrosion and will begin to stick in their bores over time. Hill Engineering manufacture high quality stainless steel pistons to replace the stock aluminium versions so I decided to track down a set of used calipers and rebuild them to better than OEM standard.
The calipers I’ve sourced are the CCM calipers from a Scuderia. They are the same on the 599, 16M, and Scuderia. As you can see, there was a pad fire in one caliper, but that doesn’t matter as I am going to have both vapour blasted and painted in Rosso Corsa with new decals underneath a coat of lacquer, then I will rebuild with new pistons, seals, and bleed nipples.
I also picked up a set of pads that have approx. 60% life left.
For all of the above I paid less than the cost of new CCM front pads! I shall enjoy rebuilding them to an improves spec. Whilst writing this update I will also document what I learnt when looking at F430 brakes, in case it helps others:
Front Calipers and Pads - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge/599 vs F430 CCM
The F430 CCM calipers (380mmm discs) are powder coated and have Ferrari script on the outside face in a contrasting colour to the caliper – as per the steel brakes.
The outside face of the pads is semi-circular and ends close to the caliper body, the shape providing clearance for the disc bell.
The 16M/Scuderia/599 CCM calipers (398mm discs) are powder coated and can be identified by the contrasting 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal underneath the Ferrari script. I originally thought the mounting offset of these calipers was unique to suit the larger 398mm discs, but I found that was not the case.
The F430 Challenge cars run 398mm discs, but the calipers are painted grey (not coated) and do not have the 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal.
Pads are specific to the 398mm discs and protrude approximately 20mm from the edge of the caliper. They have a small semi-circular reveal in the middle of the lower edge for clearance to the disc bell.
The master cylinder is the same part for F430 CCM and 16M/Scuderia so I make the assumption that piston sizes and fluid volume is the same in the 6 piston calipers. I have not verified that.
Front Knuckles - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge vs F430 CCM
As I had identified the same caliper mounting for the 599 and all F430 models the only way that the larger 398mm discs could be accommodated was either: 1) a revised knuckle with 9mm longer bosses, or 2) 9mm spacers between the knuckle and caliper. The use of spacers would work and has been proven may times but for a number of reasons it is not ideal, so the likely change would lie in the knuckle.
I already knew that the 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge had different part numbers for the front knuckle despite the suspension arms and rack position being the same as the F430, and having looked at the knuckles on my own car I could see little scope for weight reduction, so the caliper mounting had to be different. I found the following photos to satisfy myself it was the case.
F430 knuckle.
16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge front knuckle, the green arrow highlighting the longer caliper mounting bosses.
I will either purchase 16M/Scuderia knuckles or have mine modified.
16M/Scuderia Front CCM Calipers and Pads
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and designed to fit behind stock wheels. Given I am upgrading, it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge system is available. The system uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells and is advertised by Ferrari as fitting only behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels, which are 8J width at the front compared to 7.5J for stock and and Scuderia 'style' wheels, however this is unverified and at least one owner has the Scud brakes behind 'style' wheels.
The F430 and 16M/Scuderia calipers don't use dust seals which is a good thing for performance work as I don't think any of the manufacturers have managed to make a dust seal that withstands high heat and doesn’t crack, but the downside is that the stock aluminium pistons can suffer corrosion and will begin to stick in their bores over time. Hill Engineering manufacture high quality stainless steel pistons to replace the stock aluminium versions so I decided to track down a set of used calipers and rebuild them to better than OEM standard.
The calipers I’ve sourced are the CCM calipers from a Scuderia. They are the same on the 599, 16M, and Scuderia. As you can see, there was a pad fire in one caliper, but that doesn’t matter as I am going to have both vapour blasted and painted in Rosso Corsa with new decals underneath a coat of lacquer, then I will rebuild with new pistons, seals, and bleed nipples.
I also picked up a set of pads that have approx. 60% life left.
For all of the above I paid less than the cost of new CCM front pads! I shall enjoy rebuilding them to an improves spec. Whilst writing this update I will also document what I learnt when looking at F430 brakes, in case it helps others:
Front Calipers and Pads - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge/599 vs F430 CCM
The F430 CCM calipers (380mmm discs) are powder coated and have Ferrari script on the outside face in a contrasting colour to the caliper – as per the steel brakes.
The outside face of the pads is semi-circular and ends close to the caliper body, the shape providing clearance for the disc bell.
The 16M/Scuderia/599 CCM calipers (398mm discs) are powder coated and can be identified by the contrasting 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal underneath the Ferrari script. I originally thought the mounting offset of these calipers was unique to suit the larger 398mm discs, but I found that was not the case.
The F430 Challenge cars run 398mm discs, but the calipers are painted grey (not coated) and do not have the 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal.
Pads are specific to the 398mm discs and protrude approximately 20mm from the edge of the caliper. They have a small semi-circular reveal in the middle of the lower edge for clearance to the disc bell.
The master cylinder is the same part for F430 CCM and 16M/Scuderia so I make the assumption that piston sizes and fluid volume is the same in the 6 piston calipers. I have not verified that.
Front Knuckles - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge vs F430 CCM
As I had identified the same caliper mounting for the 599 and all F430 models the only way that the larger 398mm discs could be accommodated was either: 1) a revised knuckle with 9mm longer bosses, or 2) 9mm spacers between the knuckle and caliper. The use of spacers would work and has been proven may times but for a number of reasons it is not ideal, so the likely change would lie in the knuckle.
I already knew that the 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge had different part numbers for the front knuckle despite the suspension arms and rack position being the same as the F430, and having looked at the knuckles on my own car I could see little scope for weight reduction, so the caliper mounting had to be different. I found the following photos to satisfy myself it was the case.
F430 knuckle.
16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge front knuckle, the green arrow highlighting the longer caliper mounting bosses.
I will either purchase 16M/Scuderia knuckles or have mine modified.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 12:24
alistair267 said:
I am neither a member, nor a Ferrari owner, but my father-in-law is both and I have done a couple of track days with him in his car. Really enjoyed them, nice bunch of people.
That's good to know - thanks!alan-87 said:
Love this, as per everyone else attention to detail is phenomenal.
I'm intrigued how you source all the parts, maybe its just my perception but I would have assumed some of these would be like rocking horse s
t to find?
Thank you. The parts are extremely thin on the ground, but I do enjoy tracking them down I'm intrigued how you source all the parts, maybe its just my perception but I would have assumed some of these would be like rocking horse s
t to find?Simon,
In view of your experience I've updated the paragraph.
Mark
In view of your experience I've updated the paragraph.
mwstewart said:
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and designed to fit behind stock wheels. Given I am upgrading, it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge system is available. The system uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells and is advertised by Ferrari as fitting only behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels, which are 8J width at the front compared to 7.5J for stock and and Scuderia 'style' wheels, however this is unverified and at least one owner has the Scud brakes behind 'style' wheels.
Cheers,Mark
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